Can ANYONE name the poison Eagle 20 with the active ingredient Myclobutanil??

[GnarlsBarkley]

How about people stop being so fucking greedy and putting money before health. You do not have to use these products, there are better alternatives out there and to be honest if there wasn't and Eagle 20 was the only option you should suck it the fuck up and destroy your crop not turn this medicine into a poison. Your harvest is not worth a life, or even a trip to the hospital for anyone.

 

[accessndx]

accessndx have you even done your research or are you just applying this shit and hoping for the fucking best? It stays in the plant for over 200 days and when combusted turns into fucking cyanide.

Yes it was the Eagle 20, the reaction was almost immediate after smoking the contaminated weed. The grower himself even confirmed he used Eagle 20. We live in the information era, no one has the excuse of not knowing. It takes no time at all to find out just how deadly this shit is. You can keep trying to rationalize your usage of this poison in your head however you want but the facts are out there. I hope you do not sell your weed, if I was a consumer and smoked your eagle 20 weed I'd sue your ass into non existence so you never poison anyone ever again.

Haven't sold a bag of weed to anyone in decades.
Whatever I produce I consume. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
SHOW ME a peer reviewed research article that demonstrates your assertion that Eagle is in the plant "FOR OVER 200 DAYS".

And show me MORE than one, cause that's the way SCIENCE WORKS, or you can just SAY SHIT and HOPE FOR THE FUCKING BEST as well.

You may also want to dial down the venom bro, I dunno who shit in your Cheerios, but I'm not the enemy. I'm some guy asking questions expecting data that is quantifiable. So make with the science-y answers and stop being a clown shoe.

 

[Weird]

most people here produce for more than just themselves and legal markets prohibit the use of it

there are lawsuits in court now on the basis it turns to cyanide when smoked, this is court record not hippy conjecture

fate of eagle20 has only been determined in the environment it was meant for, outdoor ornamental turf so expecting them to test it on a smoke able product indoors when it was never designed for that isn't reasonable whatsoever.

fighting for the use of it under these unknowns when you have no stake in the market makes no sense other than to say I use it and I don't give a fuck what I put in my body which only serves you and people like you who don't give a fuck.

sorry, that is just level of apathy is inexcusable

it is one thing not to give a fuck about yourself it is another promote it as a mantra

Environmental fate
Due to its persistence and mobility, the primary routes of dissipation are through leaching,
runoff, and spray drift. There is also a potential for atmospheric transport. Myclobutanil is stable
to hydrolysis and to photolysis. Myclobutanil degradation is controlled by microbial-mediated
transformations. Myclobutanil was moderately persistent to persistent (DT50 > 70 days) in
aerobic soils and persistent in anaerobic soils.
Myclobutanil photo-degrades with a half-life of approximately 143 days on soil, meaning,
myclobutanil residues are fairly persistent. Leaching iss not a significant dissipation pathway.
The potential for accumulation in soil and sediment is possible due to the persistence, especially
when there are multiple applications.

 

[GnarlsBarkley]

Eagle 20 is a systemic fungicide, they even advertise it as such. For those who don't know there are contact fungicides and systemic fungicides. Contact fungicides only work where they directly make contact whereas a systemic fungicide will actually be absorbed by the plant tissue and bio-life that it makes contact with.

Eagle 20 will also be absorbed in the soil, it's very important to note that a big part of decay with Eagle 20's ingredients relies on photo and atmospheric degradation (as stated in their MSDS).

Now, the half life of Eagle 20 listed on their MSDS is 64 days. The half life is the amount of time it would take for half of the material to decay. If you know much about how this process works you'll also know about exponential decay, which tells us that the process of decay does not speed up as time goes on but slows down. This is why some materials have a half life of a few thousand years but bits of it will be around a million years later.

Now, the important thing to remember here also is that Eagle 20 in the soil will take MUCH MUCH longer, and will be pulled up by the plant beyond the date you sprayed it.

This next comment is purely anecdotal as well but I know growers have reported labs finding eagle 20 in their buds up to a year after it was supposedly sprayed.

Also while Eagle 20 is known to be cancerous (seriously its on the MSDS also) it was considered (and still is by some) to be safe orally (in very very small dosages dont drink this shit) but the MSDS also states that when heated beyond 400 degrees fahrenheit (your lighter does more than double tht btw) it releases highly toxic gases such as cyanide, which you are now inhaling straight into your lungs.

Hoping I didn't miss anything I had to type it twice since I accidentally backed out of the page.

And I apologize for the venom so to speak but this is obviously pretty big deal to me and I don't want anyone getting hurt over what should be a medicine.

 

[accessndx]

Weird, I asked for peer reviewed clinical research indicating the things everyone has stated so many times....somehow I got pegged as being apathetic.
Not sure how I've promoted the use of Eagle as mantra either, if you actually read my posts I've stated that I don't think it's a healthy product the way some folks are using it.
I don't advocate using anything in an off label capacity.

Here's what we know historically about CYANIDE production when smoking IN GENERAL:

Marijuana smoke contains a similar range of harmful chemicals to that of tobacco smoke (including bronchial irritants, tumor promoters and carcinogens) (Hoffmann et al, 1975). As inhaled smoke comes into contact with airway and lung before being absorbed into the bloodstream, it is likely to affect the respiratory system (Novotny et al, 1982).

Risk of respiratory effects from inhaling marijuana smoke are heightened by the more intensive way in which marijuana is smoked -- when smoking marijuana compared to tobacco, there is a prolonged and deeper inhalation and it is smoked to a shorter butt length and at a higher combustion temperature. This results in approximately 5 times the carbon monoxide concentration, 3 times the tar, and the retention of one-third more tar in the respiratory tract. Higher levels of ammonia and hydrogen cyanide have also been found in marijuana smoke, compared to tobacco (Moir, et al., 2008; Wu et al., 1988; Tashkin et al., 1991; Benson & Bentley, 1995).

Furthermore: Hydrogen cyanide is produced by the combustion or pyrolysis of certain materials under oxygen-deficient conditions. For example, it can be detected in the exhaust of internal combustion engines and tobacco smoke.

Pyrolysis is a thermochemical decomposition of organic material at elevated temperatures in the absence of oxygen and is most commonly observed in organic materials exposed to high temperatures. It is one of the processes involved in charring wood, starting at 200–300 °C.

SO, in spite of what you guys have stated....it appears that cigarette smoking produces cyanide with regularity. Smoking weed NORMALLY produces cyanide, and furthermore Cyanides are produced by certain bacteria, fungi, and algae and are found in a number of plants. Cyanides are found in substantial amounts in certain seeds and fruit stones, e.g., those of apricots, apples, and peaches.

Do we want tons of cyanide to inhale? No of course not, otherwise you'd be an idiot.
But since it appears in the LITERATURE that MANY things produce CYANIDE including burning wood, tobacco, marijuana and an entire host of different things.

So what do we know? We know from numerous studies that cyanide is one of those products related to burning things, especially marijuana. Are you now contending that there is a GREATER and MEASURABLY SIGNIFICANT increase in cyanide production after the application of Eagle 20?

If so I'd SPECIFICALLY like to see data concerning that. Data that's not a rumor, not a blog, not a post somewhere else from someone's uncle twice removed with no vetted research.

If you're going to insist that cyanide is produced primarily by the use of this product, you're going to have to put your money where your mouth is and distinguish it from the regular cyanide that is always produced by smoking.

If this is indeed being evaluated by courts at all, I'd be dumbfounded if they didn't already go down this path of questioning.

 

[GnarlsBarkley]

If the proof I submitted isn't enough for you go for it and keep smoking your Eagle 20 weed, but don't try and defend it and possibly encourage others to think its safe when it is very clearly not. I have all the evidence I need.

And if you dont take the MSDS as proof and want peer reviewed sources instead IDK wht to tell you man it's straight from the manufacturer, youre a special kind of something...

 

[Mikell]

access hit the nail on the head.

Gnarly, please ignore me until you have read this whole thread. Though I have seen many of your type, rarely do any of you accept information outside of your preconcieved partially informed notions, exhibiting high confirmation bias.

Hydrogen cyanide. Scary. 300ppm from combusting clean cannabis.

For reference, I believe it was this thread that posted a review of tested samples post legalization. The highest reading was below 50ppm. Now if someone had information on the conversion of myclobutanil to hydrogen cyanide, or the toxicity of metabolites, that would be useful.

Weird, if you have nothing new to contribute, I have read your emotionally fired moral judgements many a time, save yourself the stress it clearly causes you. Facts or crickets.

Please ignore the temptation to post the first ten results from a Google search. They are rarely relevant.

I'll leave your assumptions on the ground where they belong. Neem is great but I fail to understand your need to regularly douse plants. I apologize that it is not the be all end all of my life, but just another bottle on the shelf I occasionally reach for.


I am interested in real data on all available products used to produce cannabis. Not how anyone feels or thinks or assumes. When everything is open on the table, people can make informed decisions. This doesn't happen when the moral militia roams.

"Drugs are bad, m'kay" doesn't work for me and shouldn't for anyone.

I thought perhaps this thread was revived to post new data but it is just more of the same old song and dance.

 

[accessndx]

If the proof I submitted isn't enough for you go for it and keep smoking your Eagle 20 weed, but don't try and defend it and possibly encourage others to think its safe when it is very clearly not. I have all the evidence I need.

And if you dont take the MSDS as proof and want peer reviewed sources instead IDK wht to tell you man it's straight from the manufacturer, youre a special kind of something...

I think you're special too Barkley, the kind of special that needs a short bus for transportation.

You didn't submit ANY proof. You posted secondhand reports about your friend's issues and dodged every question someone asked you about it.

Furthermore, show me where the MSDS states that smoking Eagle laden product turns into cyanide.

http://www.coloradogreenlab.com/blo...ntext-of-cannabis-cultivation-and-consumption

Myclobutanil-based fungicides, including Eagle 20, are applied to a wide range of edible agricultural products (grapes, apples, spinach, etc). When applied correctly, myclobutanil is known to have low toxicity to humans.

The toxicity and health effects of myclobutanil in the context of combustion/inhalation (versus ingestion) have not been assessed.

If these effects haven't been assessed nobody knows dick about anything....including you Braniac. Unless maybe you have a secret lab located deep inside the core of the Earth we don't know about.

 

[accessndx]

So I've gotta chuckle here....just poking around IC, I find yet another thread about 5 years old.....and who's posting 4th from the top...my buddy Weird.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=233878

What does it say?

"if you put this shit on your flowers and sell em your worse than big tabacooo

WHY?!?!

cause at thousands of dollars a pound there is no excuse to take shortcuts that can effect peoples health"

I think we should make shirts or bumper stickers for y'all Weird. Cause in spite of the fact it's getting a bit hackneyed, you can't seem to recycle the platitudes fast enough.

Anyway, I respect your opinion. But I actually require facts, figures, charts, evidence. Moral high ground is only going to hold water for so long without them.

 

[GnarlsBarkley]

MSDS = Proof, you're just both incapable of accepting the truth. And your link says its safe for edibles not for smoking, it even says in ur link u provided tht it turns into unsafe levels of cyanide. Idiot. You're misinformation may cost lives one day if someone is misfortunate enough to trust your word. I'm done talking to walls like you two.

Mikell especially, noone wants to hear your bullshit anymore that you've been spouting throughout this entire thread. You've been presented with more than enough evidence from many people besides myself but you still argue pro Eagle 20. Like many others have said I'm fairly certain you're just a low tier troll here for the lulz

 

[GnarlsBarkley]

No proof in the world would change your minds, don't lie.

 

[Chimera]

Here's some facts:

By SC Labs's own data, 40% of October 2015 samples tested for pesticides contained Myclobutanil. 6% of Emerald Cup 2015 samples detected Myclobutanil- January, February and March 2016 samples detected Myclobutanil in roughly 23%, 22%, and 18% of samples respectively.

Now, it's obvious to anyone that puts a little thought into it, that this detected presence of Myclobutanil produces more hydrogen cyanide when burned, compared to a theoretical control sample of Cannabis, that has not been sprayed with Myclobutanil.

Let me say that another way, in every case, if you spray Myclobutanil, there will be more hydrogen cyanide produced when combusted, compared to a plant that was not sprayed. That said, the whole "Hydrogen Cyanide is already present" argument goes straight out the window, because we have already showed an increase in exposure to the consumer.

These chemicals may be a byproduct of pyrolysis of the flower, yet Myclobutanil is extracted and concentrated when cannabis is processed into concentrates, increasing the risk and exposure by dose of Myclobutanil/mg of cannabis consumed. The absence of safety data, or lack proof of increased risk caused by a paucity of studies showing harm in vivo is moot; that concentrates and flowers show detected levels of Myclobutanil shows an increase risk of exposure and thus potential and probable harm. This is enough to remove products found to contain these 'cides from various markets by product recalls, be it in CO, or Canada under the ACMPR. Many people that consume cannabis do not combust flowers.

If you don't support off-label use of pesticides and fungicides, you by definition don't support the use of any pesticide to fungicide on cannabis- there are NO PESTICIDES OR FUNGICIDES approved by the EPA for use on Cannabis. Nobody has taken the steps under FIFRA to register any compounds or formulations for use on cannabis.

There are safer, yet dramatically less effective options to use for cannabis, that have alternate mechanisms of action for defeating PM. Greencure or Millstop - both formulations containing potassium bicarbonate - can desiccate spores and stop them from germinating, and change the pH of the leaf to make it less favorable to PM. Products like ZeroTol (a mixture of H2O2 and perchloric acid (the vinegar equivalent to H2O2)) also fry spores, so the combination of sufficient airflow, adequate spacing between plants, and proper RH management in conjunction with these less harmful sprays is often enough to keep PM at bay.

People have gotten into the habit of using these chems because they operate in far less than ideal cultivation environments that breed and promote PM- and these products containing Myclobutanil serve as a crutch that masks the environmental cultivation problems that promote PM growth. Further most commercially sought cultivars are PM susceptible. Combining good cultural practices with appropriate cultivars selected for the production environment can dramatically reduce the need for fungicide input like Myclobutanil. However, if everyone keeps growing Kush an kush hybrids in basement/warehouse style grows without proper ventilation and air treatment, PM is all but predictable, so the use of these chems by lazy farmers is inevitable.

 

[accessndx]

Chimera, you've put forward a well written and thoughtful post.
I think that's all anyone wanted.

6%-23% + samples is a huge range. None of that describes how Eagle was applied. Nor does it detail when it was applied or in what quantity. Apparently that matters.

I'd like someone to simply answer this question: Is there ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE that a plant which has been sprayed with Eagle 20 will be devoid of any residual Myclobutanil?

We're not arguing that Myclobutanil is healthy or desirable. The ONLY thing I'm curious about is when the product is clean.

Is it possible for a plant to retain this material for 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? Does it stay in the tissue indefinitely? Or does it SOMEHOW eventually drop to levels that are unmeasurable or to nil?

If you're going to contend it never leaves the tissue, please provide me with referenced data indicating so.

 

[accessndx]

No proof in the world would change your minds, don't lie.

Did you know Ringling Bros. is closing the circus bro?

 

[Chimera]

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+6708


Environmental Fate/Exposure Summary:
Myclobutanil's production may result in its release to the environment through various waste streams ; its use as a systemic fungicide will result in its direct release to the environment. If released to air, a vapor pressure of 1.6X10-6 mm Hg at 25 deg C indicates myclobutanil will exist in both the vapor and particulate phases. Vapor-phase myclobutanil will be degraded in the atmosphere by reaction with photochemically-produced hydroxyl radicals; the half-life for this reaction in air is estimated to be 2.3 days. Particulate-phase myclobutanil will be removed from the atmosphere by wet or dry deposition. Aqueous solutions of myclobutanil are decomposed by light with half-lives ranging from 25-222 days. Therefore, myclobutanil may be susceptible to direct photolysis in the atmosphere. If released to soil, myclobutanil is expected to have low mobility based upon an estimated Koc of 950. Myclobutanil has been classified as slightly mobile based on a measured Rf value of 0.13 for (14)C-myclobutanil on Versaille silt loam. Volatilization from moist soil surfaces is not expected to be an important fate process based upon an estimated Henry's Law constant of 4.3X10-9 atm-cu m/mole. If released into water, myclobutanil is expected to adsorb to suspended solids and sediment based upon the estimated Koc. In water, myclobutanil is decomposed by light with half-lives ranging from 25-222 days. Volatilization from water surfaces is not expected to be an important fate process based upon this compound's estimated Henry's Law constant. An estimated BCF of 37 suggests the potential for bioconcentration in aquatic organisms is moderate. Hydrolysis of myclobutanil was not observed after 28 days at pHs 5,7 and 9 at 28 deg C. Occupational exposure to myclobutanil may occur through inhalation of mists or aerosols and dermal contact with this compound at workplaces where myclobutanil is produced or used. Monitoring data indicate that the general population may be exposed to myclobutanil via ingestion of food containing myclobutanil. (SRC)
**PEER REVIEWED**

 

[Chimera]

Unfortunately, the SC data only shows presence as detected (I believe) by GC. They have recently invested in a triple Quadrupole LC/MS system which is able to detect and quantify levels of these substances into the ppb (parts per Billion) range, whereas the data above was collected on a machine only capable of detection in the ppm range. This is a case of industry moving faster than regulation and testing, but testing is ongoing and the testing abilities are improving.


However, I would suggest that quantification of these compounds is not going to give us any specific answer like you are hoping for, we absolutely will see a range of contamination from severely contaminated samples, to simply presence detected in some samples.

Does that mean we're safe to spray a compound, even in veg or beyond- at 12/12 induction as has been suggested here andI have seen in practice across a series of markets - if the half life of the compound is somewhere in the 25-222 day range? We simply don't have the answers to the questions you are asking, but I would not say that it's a reason to continue with our same practices.

Myclobutanil is a great tool, I've used it myself to sterilize cuttings in the past. It works like a charm. However, that doesn't mean it's safe to use as a preventative part of a spray regime for plants in the production cycle and on their way to flowering. You are right, we do need more science. The absence of science, however, does not infer safety, and given the amount of actual toxicological and persistence data available for the compound in question, I think the caution being generated throughout the community is probably warranted. AFAIK, myclobutanil isn't approved for tobacco for the same reasons- there's a reason for that restriction.

 

[Chimera]

The dissipation rates of myclobutanil and residue analysis in wheat and soil using gas chromatography-ion trap mass spectrometry
Authors: Liu, Xingang; Dong, Fengshou; Wang, Xu; Zheng, Yongquan
Source: International Journal of Environmental and Analytical Chemistry, Volume 89, Number 13, January 2009, pp. 957-967(11)
Abstract:
The dissipation of myclobutanil (triazole fungicide) in wheat plant, grain and soil under the local weather and soil conditions was studied and fungicide residues were determined by GC-ITMS. Myclobutanil (25% EC) was applied at two dosages, 60 g a.i. ha-1 (recommended) and 120 g a.i. ha-1 (2 times of the recommended dosage) in the experimental fields in Shandong, Beijing and Henan provinces (experimental localities). The detection limit (LOD) and the limit of quantification (LOQ) of myclobutanil were 0.6 µg kg-1 and 2 µg kg-1 respectively, and they were much below the maximum residue limit (MRL 0.02 mg kg-1) in the EU. The average recoveries were 76.4-97.7, 82.6-92.6 and 75.0-94.4% with relative standard deviation (RSD) of 6.3-15.9, 3.8-17.3 and 3.0-19.7% in wheat plant at four spiking levels (0.01, 0.1, 0.5, 10 mg kg-1), wheat grain at four spiking levels (0.005, 0.01, 0.1, 10 mg kg-1) and soil at five spiking levels (0.002, 0.01, 0.1, 0.5, 10 mg kg-1), respectively. The results showed that the half-lives of myclobutanil in wheat plant and soil from Shandong, Beijing and Henan were 3.5-4.5 and 11.0-11.7 days, respectively. At harvest, wheat grain samples were found to contain myclobutanil well below the MRL following the recommended dosage and the interval of 20 days after last application


*** Keep in mind, these measurements were taken in wheat, a much less oily plant than cannabis, so it owuld hve a completely different absorption profile, and the matrix effect could well preserve the compound and extend the half-life in Cannabis. Not does, could- we don;t know. Also, this data represents the half-life or breakdown under natural conditions, outside- not indoors under lights. Much of the photo-degradation that occurs is the result of UV-mediated from the sunlight. Indoors under lights we likely would have a much slower breakdown. due to the lack of UV.

To answer your question, does it at some point disappear or become undetectable in your plant after you spray it? I'm sure it does, at some point. At this point, I don't think that data exists. Can you use all this information to use the product to sterilize plants, or eliminate PM from your stock plants? At this point in time we don't have enough data to evaluate the safety risk. Can we then go ahead and use these compounds on production plants, without fear that we are exposing consumers to possible risk? I would say no, we can't- and on that basis I think it's enough for people to start looking elsewhere for solutions, and start by identifying the other problems within their production that encourage PM.

 

[GnarlsBarkley]

It's worth noting the MRL would be adjusted if it took combustion into account. So when it says it hits the MRL after 20 days that is for eating. But great info all around Chimera!

 

[siftedunity]

Cancer Classification: Group E Evidence of Non-carcinogenicity for Humans
USEPA Office of Pesticide Programs, Health Effects Division, Science Information Management Branch: "Chemicals Evaluated for Carcinogenic Potential" (April 2006)

from every thing ive read the general consensus is that it is rated as in group E, which means ''There is strong evidence that it does not cause cancer in humans.''


im not sure where the proof is that it causes cancer?

pubchem chemical database:
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/myclobutanil#section=Top


epa carcinogen group classification info
http://www.greenfacts.org/glossary/def/epa-cancer-classification.htm

 

[accessndx]

I appreciate the effort Chimera, but you're right....unfortunately the type of clinical information I'm searching for doesn't currently exist.

That doesn't mean that the typical use of Eagle is safe. It appears we've used Eagle for much the same purpose (ie-sterilization of new cuttings).

FTR: there are innumerable chemicals that folks have sitting around the house that will cause cancer with regular and even infrequent exposure. Who hasn't had some talcum powder used after a haircut? Crest tartar control toothpaste contains both FD&C BLUE #1 which is carcinogenic and saccharin, which is also carcinogenic. Alberto VO5 hair conditioner contains formaldehyde as well as FD&C RED #4, a known carcinogen. Hell, Ajax cleaner has crystalline silica, which is guess what.....carcinogenic. Your beef frankfurters contain benzene hexacloride (well at least Oscar Meyer does), as well as Dacthal, Dieldrin and Lindane...all friggin known carcinogens.
The list is almost endless.

Once again, this is NOT a reason to go out and drink a glass of Eagle or shoot it into your veins. It's just to say that we're surrounded by potentially dangerous chemicals that we use to clean our homes, feed our children and a host of other day to day activities.

Eagle is just one thing on that list. Don't think it ends there, if you've been spraying Lysol to cover up the odors from your smoking sessions, you've just dumped Orthophenyphenol right into your atmosphere to inhale....and guess what....it's carcinogenic.

So I'm curious, how many of you organic jockeys out there clean your toilets, put on deodorant, eat any processed foods, etc.? Unless you've been in a bubble, segregated from practically everything on the planet...you've been exposed to carcinogenic, teratogenic and mutagenic substances for sure. 100% for certain.

Even if you don't personally use these sorts of chemicals, ever use a public restroom? Ever walk through a supermarket? Have you driven a car? Possibly filled your gas tank? How about wear clothing....cause Polyester and "wrinkle free" fabrics are developed from xylene and ethylene.
Spandex and olefin which became the mainstay of sportswear, swim suits, and thermal underwear is produced by "cracking" petroleum molecules into propylene and ethylene gases.
Today's clothing is manufactured using an astounding 8,000 synthetic chemicals.
Nowadays, clothes also contain toxins like formaldehyde, brominated flame retardants, and perfluorinated chemicals.

So I guess I should be running around in a loincloth, without any modern amenities. Possibly growing my own food using my own feces for fertilizer.

Or I'd be just considered a lazy, apathetic individual who doesn't care about his health or the environment.