Can ANYONE name the poison Eagle 20 with the active ingredient Myclobutanil??

[gaiusmarius]

i didnt say i want a doc justifying it's use, i said a doc that lists all the facts that are known, good and bad.

that it's illegal for use with cannabis in legal states is 1 such fact. then we have the fact that it seems to work wonders with just a single use, this makes me think the active ingredient either stays in the plant long enough that it gets rid of even systemic pm. this fact is scary as it means the stuff is really power full and likely not gone inside the 3 month life span of your average indoor grow. what i am advocating is something that can be read in one reading which includes everything we know about this stuff. so those that want to use best practices will know not to use it, or maybe how to use it safely in case of saving some unique genetics.

 

[Mikell]

I say the darndest things.

 

[Weird]

i didnt say i want a doc justifying it's use, i said a doc that lists all the facts that are known, good and bad.

that it's illegal for use with cannabis in legal states is 1 such fact. then we have the fact that it seems to work wonders with just a single use, this makes me think the active ingredient either stays in the plant long enough that it gets rid of even systemic pm. this fact is scary as it means the stuff is really power full and likely not gone inside the 3 month life span of your average indoor grow. what i am advocating is something that can be read in one reading which includes everything we know about this stuff. so those that want to use best practices will know not to use it, or maybe how to use it safely in case of saving some unique genetics.

I hate pushing against the mods here because you guys work very hard for very little and still manage to have some passion for the position so please don't think I am "attacking" anyone in particular but rather a very dangerous and unproductive mindset and culture.

Let's be totally straight here, if this was a commercial outfit and you where breaking laws to subsist you would be paying huge money to a consultant resolve the issue.

With that out of the way let me boil it down to the smallest bit of knowledge for you.

The MANUFACTURER DOES NOT SUPPORT OR APPROVE OF THE USE OF THE PRODUCT IN THIS MANNER

you realize that working against the above makes the whole site look like amateur croppers who don't give a fuck to even try to work within MANUFACTURER specifications. You really think you have move resources than DOW to figure out why they don't approve of it?

How do you think this will play into the scheme of lawsuits and liabilities?

Would you like me to illuminate you as to how a court will process agricultural lawsuits regarding products not supported for use by even the manufacturer?

It doesn't take much to pick up a phone and call the AG.

There is a reason there has been a mass exodus over the years here and I get it on more than one level and while I am not casting blame on anyone I can reveal some of the cause.

I get it because IC is truly rooted in counter culture and I consider myself part of that same culture but it is almost as if the conspiracy mindset has this community question EVERYTHING. This is one of the greatest dangers of perception altering drugs.

Most people's ability to critically think is highly effected, which I why I have called out people for it before.

There is no need to question why DOW doesn't promote this for cannabis, and there is a very real reason to question why people are resistant to learning proper horticultural practices which are being proven effective through the application there of today in many gardens across the world.

I will however go over as I have several times on why it is completely unacceptable to use it both for those who grow the weed and those who smoke it and even how it limits the full expression of the plant

You can reach out to a number of established professional organizations that work in this space and see how establish industries deal with this paradigm

Plant secondary metabolites have been a long established industry. Essential oils and the like. None of this is a brave new world.

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is on this one. Anyone else?

I would pay just to see DOW say, go ahead use eagle20 on pot.

let alone the fact that too many people found ways that worked without losing the farm

 

[t99]

Never used eagle 20 and don't plan on it. Don't know enough about it.
There is at least one systemic fungicide listed for use on cannabis and I think approved for use in Colorado. Never used it, haven't heard from anyone who has. But, I think I'd try this before eagle 20, any reasons why not?

 

[gaiusmarius]

I hate pushing against the mods here because you guys work very hard for very little and still manage to have some passion for the position so please don't think I am "attacking" anyone in particular but rather a very dangerous and unproductive mindset and culture.

Let's be totally straight here, if this was a commercial outfit and you where breaking laws to subsist you would be paying huge money to a consultant resolve the issue.

With that out of the way let me boil it down to the smallest bit of knowledge for you.

The MANUFACTURER DOES NOT SUPPORT OR APPROVE OF THE USE OF THE PRODUCT IN THIS MANNER

you realize that working against the above makes the whole site look like amateur croppers who don't give a fuck to even try to work within MANUFACTURER specifications. You really think you have move resources than DOW to figure out why they don't approve of it?

How do you think this will play into the scheme of lawsuits and liabilities?

Would you like me to illuminate you as to how a court will process agricultural lawsuits regarding products not supported for use by even the manufacturer?

It doesn't take much to pick up a phone and call the AG.

There is a reason there has been a mass exodus over the years here and I get it on more than one level and while I am not casting blame on anyone I can reveal some of the cause.

I get it because IC is truly rooted in counter culture and I consider myself part of that same culture but it is almost as if the conspiracy mindset has this community question EVERYTHING. This is one of the greatest dangers of perception altering drugs.

Most people's ability to critically think is highly effected, which I why I have called out people for it before.

There is no need to question why DOW doesn't promote this for cannabis, and there is a very real reason to question why people are resistant to learning proper horticultural practices which are being proven effective through the application there of today in many gardens across the world.

I will however go over as I have several times on why it is completely unacceptable to use it both for those who grow the weed and those who smoke it and even how it limits the full expression of the plant

You can reach out to a number of established professional organizations that work in this space and see how establish industries deal with this paradigm

Plant secondary metabolites have been a long established industry. Essential oils and the like. None of this is a brave new world.

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is on this one. Anyone else?

I would pay just to see DOW say, go ahead use eagle20 on pot.

let alone the fact that too many people found ways that worked without losing the farm

look man, stop with your holier then though bs, no pesticides or fungicides are released for use with cannabis, because till very shortly it was illegal nearly everywhere. so just because a product hasn't been certified for use with cannabis alone doesn't make it poison to use it.

anyway, you are right about 1 point, i won't do the faq. even though i'm also just a member in the end and member content is not the responsibility of the site. but yeah with you litigious minded folks it's best not to give any excuse, lmao.

as for the counter culture, thats true. but in the end, best practices are best practices whether illegal crop or legal crop. if you think you are the only one that knows how to run a grow without pm nor e20, you should think again. it's actually very easy if you don't have a systemically sick genetics.

so anyway you told how no one should use it, so why not give folks your solution for a gifted clone with systemic pm? what product is certified for use with cannabis?

what about all the grapes and strawberries grown with this stuff? does it wash off? does producing the wine neutralize it?

 

[Weird]

look man, stop with your holier then though bs, no pesticides or fungicides are released for use with cannabis, because till very shortly it was illegal nearly everywhere. so just because a product hasn't been certified for use with cannabis alone doesn't make it poison to use it.

im not being holier than though I actually contacted dow when this thread first started and posted the results as well, it goes much deeper that but bottom line is isn't certified for any leafy vegetable but they make a similar product for it but not eagle20 because they specifically made if for different crops. The scientists at DOW will be glad to educate you if you doubt me.

I can also get if I compile a list of what is approved for use for cannabis in legal markets, Washington state has a list.

A poster above posted what is approved in CO.

anyway, you are right about 1 point, i won't do the faq. even though i'm also just a member in the end and member content is not the responsibility of the site. but yeah with you litigious minded folks it's best not to give any excuse, lmao.

you realize that you are shooting yourself in the foot more than one way if you use it, reinforcing inferior practice and making pathogens hardier which is only going to make the issue worse than eagle20 can handle

you also did not read the MSDS and the testing of the product that they did and read the fate of the product of the in the environment. It is tested outdoors with plants in the earth and the fate is determined by those conditions and the dissipation into the ambient environments.

That changes dramatically indoors. It isn't a difficult concept.

as for the counter culture, thats true. but in the end, best practices are best practices whether illegal crop or legal crop. if you think you are the only one that knows how to run a grow without pm nor e20, you should think again. it's actually very easy if you don't have a systemically sick genetics.

Who ever said I was the only one, that is on you and everyone offended by my words but you are validating my point, not that tough, plenty of people figured it out.

What I said is that even at $ 1000 lb there is no excuse not to learn best practices. the cost of education is built in to the value while it lasts if you haven't figured it out.

so anyway you told how no one should use it, so why not give folks your solution for a gifted clone with systemic pm? what product is certified for use with cannabis?

I have, many times, guess when I contribute something that doesn't get peoples egos on edge they don't find it worth reading

what about all the grapes and strawberries grown with this stuff? does it wash off? does producing the wine neutralize it?

They are not leafy green plants and flowers being grown indoors for eventual combustion

Not even apples and oranges

the fact that all of this has been gone over in this thread, ad nauseam, blows my mind.

 

[gaiusmarius]

lmao, i have never ever held a bottle of e 20 let alone used 1 drop of it on anything. i am interested in the information for the sake of knowing what the options are. which you still are not helping with, why not name the product dow makes for use on cannabis. thats the info members should find when they search this topic, not 37 pages of telling people they are idiots and or evil if they use e20. at least at some point the actual product that can be used safely might be worth mentioning don't you think?

 

[Weird]

lmao, i have never ever held a bottle of e 20 let alone used 1 drop of it on anything. i am interested in the information for the sake of knowing what the options are. which you still are not helping with, why not name the product dow makes for use on cannabis. thats the info members should find when they search this topic, not 37 pages of telling people they are idiots and or evil if they use e20. at least at some point the actual product that can be used safely might be worth mentioning don't you think?

it still hasn't been tested or approved for use on weed

jsut leafy greens

and I did

I went through all of this when the thread started even called the place where krunch got his stuff tested and found out they didn't test for all the chems in eagle20 and posted that too

I am logical and thorough

FWIW I figured out all my organic methods from reading the boards here

NO WHERE ELSE

 

[gaiusmarius]

so if i missed the solution in this thread maybe you can link me to the post. this is what the faq should contain, best practice solutions in case of systemic pm contaminating special genetics.

if we had that info all in 1 short to the point article it would help many people to adopt best practices, lets make it simple and quick for people to get the info, including the warnings and reasons against using E20. while offering them the safe alternative.

 

[GnarlsBarkley]

Hey Gaiusmarius,

I don't know if you saw it but I outlined the dangers of Eagle 20 and sourced the safety data sheet from the manufacturer themselves.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=7783644&postcount=364

As for other alternatives for PM, growers could use approved and organic methods that are quite effective such as a copper fungicide. Compost tea has also been helping horticulturists fight off fungus, pests and disease for almost forever.

 

[GnarlsBarkley]

Just a couple pages back Chimera also added

There are safer, yet dramatically less effective options to use for cannabis, that have alternate mechanisms of action for defeating PM. Greencure or Millstop - both formulations containing potassium bicarbonate - can desiccate spores and stop them from germinating, and change the pH of the leaf to make it less favorable to PM. Products like ZeroTol (a mixture of H2O2 and perchloric acid (the vinegar equivalent to H2O2)) also fry spores, so the combination of sufficient airflow, adequate spacing between plants, and proper RH management in conjunction with these less harmful sprays is often enough to keep PM at bay.

 

[Babbabud]

im not sure why anyone would argue in favor of these chems . The argument that we live with other harmful products is about as lame a straw dog as ive ever heard. Regardless of what other chems or products we use in our lives ... my objective when growing pot is to make the most beautiful most pristine plant possible. Rather then defending this product why not ask questions and try to learn how to do without it ? I smoke very little OPP ....just read the post on here .. that tells you why . I dont think anyone is one hundred percent positive that Eagle 20 is any good for us ... so why would anyone even consider putting it on their plants. Im def sure its something i can do without.
So what is your objective when growing this plant ?

OPP = other peoples pot

 

[Mikell]

I am glad others can share in his wierd way of thinking.

What is the point of a public forum for discussion when one small idealogical faction chooses to control the dialogue?

You nerds have a private forum of "like minded people" to endlessly back pat each other into the ground, why not keep it there?

If you disaprove of the discussion, be an adult, state your opinion, and/or move on. Why even get involved? How much time do I spend in threads of little interest to me or of a topic I find disagreeable? Next to none.

Ah yes, drama. Trolling others with alternate views.

Almost as meritous as esoteric psychobabble.

Hey Gaiusmarius,

I don't know if you saw it but I outlined the dangers of Eagle 20 and sourced the safety data sheet from the manufacturer themselves.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=7783644&postcount=364

As for other alternatives for PM, growers could use approved and organic methods that are quite effective such as a copper fungicide. Compost tea has also been helping horticulturists fight off fungus, pests and disease for almost forever.

The dependence upon and overapplication (re: poor result) of copper sulfates from large scale organic farming is a large issue. As is regurgitating things you've read.

Compost tea as a foliar has not been around "forever".

Thanks for sharin'...

 

[gaiusmarius]

no one is controlling the dialog, just voicing their views.

Eagle 20 is a systemic fungicide, they even advertise it as such. For those who don't know there are contact fungicides and systemic fungicides. Contact fungicides only work where they directly make contact whereas a systemic fungicide will actually be absorbed by the plant tissue and bio-life that it makes contact with.

Eagle 20 will also be absorbed in the soil, it's very important to note that a big part of decay with Eagle 20's ingredients relies on photo and atmospheric degradation (as stated in their MSDS).

Now, the half life of Eagle 20 listed on their MSDS is 64 days. The half life is the amount of time it would take for half of the material to decay. If you know much about how this process works you'll also know about exponential decay, which tells us that the process of decay does not speed up as time goes on but slows down. This is why some materials have a half life of a few thousand years but bits of it will be around a million years later.

Now, the important thing to remember here also is that Eagle 20 in the soil will take MUCH MUCH longer, and will be pulled up by the plant beyond the date you sprayed it.

This next comment is purely anecdotal as well but I know growers have reported labs finding eagle 20 in their buds up to a year after it was supposedly sprayed.

Also while Eagle 20 is known to be cancerous (seriously its on the MSDS also) it was considered (and still is by some) to be safe orally (in very very small dosages dont drink this shit) but the MSDS also states that when heated beyond 400 degrees fahrenheit (your lighter does more than double tht btw) it releases highly toxic gases such as cyanide, which you are now inhaling straight into your lungs.

Hoping I didn't miss anything I had to type it twice since I accidentally backed out of the page.

And I apologize for the venom so to speak but this is obviously pretty big deal to me and I don't want anyone getting hurt over what should be a medicine.

thanks, thats what i was looking for. well actually i was hoping it might not be that bad. seems a useful tool to have for those rare situations where you get given something special that is pm sick. but in the end, it seems dumping plants with systemic pm issues is the best bet really. who wants to spray every crop multiple times with anything. you can find plenty of nice genetics that are not susceptible to pm.

 

[Weird]

no one is controlling the dialog, just voicing their views.




thanks, thats what i was looking for. well actually i was hoping it might not be that bad. seems a useful tool to have for those rare situations where you get given something special that is pm sick. but in the end, it seems dumping plants with systemic pm issues is the best bet really. who wants to spray every crop multiple times with anything. you can find plenty of nice genetics that are not susceptible to pm.

And in all your hope you decided instead of reading the label that it would be easier to doubt me and question the value of my words

remember when I came here a few pages ago and said I told you so and how is it that people are still arguing this?

and how it is making the site undermining the perceived value of information presented?

it has been on the label as I stated years ago in this thread

made the argument and I still get resistance as if the avatar I posses is really me

no my gallery is me the avatar is the guy from the office with dreads lol

so ironic

btw

told you so

again

 

[Weird]

Just a couple pages back Chimera also added

yeah but that is horticulture 101 and only covers some basic parameters not to be negative on the contribution but to many other tools are out there and have been discussed and divulged

most people don't realize they are fucking themselves by acting counter intuitive to best practice by using a product like this and I mean you can't establish a best practice with this crap in your environment because it defeats the natural mechanism plants evolved to fend those disease off

that is why once a person adopts a working organic regime using best practice they stop searching for silver bullets and magic methods

unless they are trying to sell it to you at a premium of course

Interactions of Bacillus spp. and plants – With special reference to induced systemic resistance (ISR)

Biological control of soil-borne pathogens comprises the decrease of inoculum or of the disease producing activity of a pathogen through one or more mechanisms. Interest in biological control of soil-borne plant pathogens has increased considerably in the last few decades, because it may provide control of diseases that cannot or only partly be managed by other control strategies. Recent advances in microbial and molecular techniques have significantly contributed to new insights in underlying mechanisms by which introduced bacteria function. Colonization of plant roots is an essential step for both soil-borne pathogenic and beneficial rhizobacteria. Colonization patterns showed that rhizobacteria act as biocontrol agents or as growth-promoting bacteria form microcolonies or biofilms at preferred sites of root exudation. Such microcolonies are sites for bacteria to communicate with each other (quorum sensing) and to act in a coordinated manner. Elicitation of induced systemic resistance (ISR) by plant-associated bacteria was initially demonstrated

 

[Weird]

too many npk and mineral nutrients do the same thing and they inversely effect terpene and other secondary metabolites from expressing to their fullest potential

there is a good amount of scientific data that backs this

maximizing a plant is about a balanced environment from the microbiology up anything else influences the composition of the secondary metabolites including mycene

ironic isn't it

 

[gaiusmarius]

i get what you are saying, but the truth is, once you have systemic pm in a clone, all the milk, eucalyptus, or sulfur will not get rid of it fully and finally. beneficial s in the soil and all the other stuff you read about, are preventative measures, they don't cure systemic pm. so in the end if you like clean buds, you are better off dumping a clone that has this issue and finding something fully healthy to grow instead. that way, you don't need to spray anything at all during the whole flowering phase. personally i don't want to grow a clone that needs to be sprayed every 2 weeks with milk or what ever.

 

[YetiOG]

Fuck eagle 20, people really want to argue the fact that using this crap is safe for what we consume as medicine. Really? Hey if you want to use it, go right ahead, but keep all that sprayed crap to yourself and don't share with others.

I agree wholly with this. I stopped vending another growers product as he decided to spray nova all over his plants. I dont fuck with anything that has any systemic used on it at any point in the cycle. Period.

Why would anyone use any systemic against PM? Potassium bicarbonate is super safe, organic approved and works VERY well. Kills the shit on contact.

There are so many safe ways to treat pm that dont require nasty shit. I wont even look at the systemic shelf in my store, i actually cringe and avoid the whole aisle they are in. I dont grow organic anymore but if im spraying my plants i only use stuff thats garenteed safe. Ive wiped out mites with trounce only with little hassle (against several peoples protests saying it wont work) and i got some pm in my place from bringing some of my cuts back to my grow from a "friends" place. I really regret it, but the solution was simple. Spray with Potassium bicarbonate and its no problem.

1 teaspoon per litre is perfect

 

[accessndx]

Really Einstein? I'm not sure anyone ever tried this before.

Really Einstein? I'm not sure anyone ever tried this before.

Spray with Potassium bicarbonate and its no problem.

Brilliant suggestion.
(unless you've actually read the 42 pages of this thread).