Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[Lightweight]

Yea use oyster shell instead of vansil in that case. Try to source everything locally.

Can you ask the lab if the P is elemental P or Phosphate (P2O5)? And also if that ug/g is ppm? And did they measure sulfer or sulfate?

And yea if you can get Michael to take a look and I will try to figure it out...we can compare recommends. theoretically this is just a process so we ought to reach the same answers...maybe not on what to use but at least at the elemental level

It is going to take me some calculating to figure base cation % and it is going to be clouded by the pH over 7. So give me a day or two and I will also look at the aea stuff and let you know what I think based on your specific soil

Ultimately the goal for you is to get the soil right and not use anything you have to order in

I called and left a message this morning with the soil testing place about the stuff you mentioned, but I doubt I'll hear back from them until Tuesday. I didn't see anything about sulfur or sulfates on their paperwork for soil testing so maybe they don't test for it. That would be kind of weird wouldn't it?

And thank you very much for your willingness to help a brother out milky. If you ever want to vacation on Maui make sure to hit me up before you make any plans. Your help will come back to you tenfold.

 

[Lightweight]

The chance of michael doing an Rx for you is slim to none. Buy the book and get express shipping if possible. Everyday counts at this point.

Edit: I saw milky is willing to help so thats a big plus.

I emailed Michael last night and he said he's still doing soil Rx's, but I stumbled across some info where allegedly he didn't follow through with some members' Rx's here so I guess that's something to consider. Thanks for the heads-up

 

[Lightweight]

There's also a product called nitrified wood out that has N added. So maybe you can nitrify it yourself if it isn't totally decomposed yet. Rare Earth sells it as 'nitro humus'.

I wonder if plants need less soil if in a bed, so they can make complete use of the soil. Though root crowding could be a thing. I connected all my mounds so they could share.

Yeah, that's a cool idea. I've thought of that before too, but I've not heard of anybody else doing it. I figured if I screened the bigger stuff out I could pre-charge that bigger stuff like people do with biochar. If I get caught up a bit I'll try it out with one or two plants and see how it does. I've got a couple plants in a 50/50 composted wood fines/manure mix right now so I'll see how that does too. I saw another guy online grow some very nice plants with the same mix so it inspired me to experiment a bit.

 

[FoothillFarming]

Thought I would post up my exprience with AEA.

Day one: ordered around 1k in material

Day 7: order blows up in fed ex

Day 8: re-order

Day 14: wrong order arrives, answer is to put new Holocal label over PHT calcium.......Never received the right order. 1/2 order exploded

Day 15: re-order

Day 21: exploding bottles again. This time causing thousands of dollars in damage to my property.

Day 22: re-order

Day 30: Last order arrived. So much pressure without venting caps that I had to go and purchase an extra 100$ in food grade buckets with lids for proper storage.

So lets recap. Thousands in damage due to improper packaging, never received holocal, instead had to swap labels, and had to come out of pocket to properly package and store. Been dealing with Eric Girdler, and he didn't even call me back. I left a msg with John, no call back. I was also told the CEO would call, but never did.

Sucks, but after I use up this batch, AEA is in the rear view mirror. Thought I would share so others might not get burned. Once again, zero integrity from a company I thought had integrity.

 

[milkyjoe]

Don't let the door hit you in the ass

 

[Dab Strudel]

here I go getting bunched up with questions before I get responses, but Do I need to mix up the 14 yards of soil before I take samples? Id think yes but you may say otherwise.

I never thought 14 yards was so damn much, to all yall that put in the extra effort to do it yourself I have a world of new respect for you. Tossing around 3 cuft bags over and over, tracking around the soil a million times, getting so hot you hear people talking to you (noone around for 50 acres). Takes time and dedication. Do you dep folks really do this 2-4 times a year??? no wonder people started doing notill.

 

[cannascholar]

I've had good results with most of my AEA orders, I can imagine with summer heat the bottles are more prone to explode. Customer service has always been excellent, they once overnighted an order across the country because it got sent to my billing address. I would suggest if you are constantly having issues and are farming on a large scale to purchase a pallet of product and be set for the season and into next year.

On another note, props to milky for recommending Vansil and Ammonium phosphate. The Ap helped provide p to my early dep when it was quite cold out. AEA uses it in their dry fertilizers along with potassium nitrate. Haven't played with Vansil much yet but a light top dress made my plants more sturdy.

Try renting a mini excavator for your mixing needs.

 

[FoothillFarming]

Don't let the door hit you in the ass

Thanks town drunk. I know who to ask for contradictory recommendations with a side of arrogance.

I've had good results with most of my AEA orders, I can imagine with summer heat the bottles are more prone to explode. Customer service has always been excellent, they once overnighted an order across the country because it got sent to my billing address. I would suggest if you are constantly having issues and are farming on a large scale to purchase a pallet of product and be set for the season and into next year..

Not sure how that would have helped me, but I do try to order everything I need in the fall. More plants, and extra soil equaled a bigger order in the spring. Thanks for the advice.

 

[milkyjoe]

Damn it...that door hit you in the ass. Door's fault, right

 

[Dab Strudel]

i have about 105/130 bags of soil emptied into a pile that ive been churning as much as i could. Would you say I would have to throw in the other 25 bags in to do my soil test or will it be close enough? Problem is I cant get the rest done before I have to leave and I want the sample out mon/tues so I figured I could get my sample taken now, but if it is going to be too far off then I wouldnt want to waste my money, but where does that leave me? another week behind to take the sample when I get back? That is pretty costly, but is that my only good choice?

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

Damn it...that door hit you in the ass. Door's fault, right

Come on, milky. You're better than this. Footy is frustrated and you can't really blame him, can you?

You're usually such a helpful poster...I have to say I'm a bit surprised. It doesn't seem like you to kick a guy when he's down.

HB.

 

[FoothillFarming]

Damn it...that door hit you in the ass. Door's fault, right

For somebody that is suppose to be taking peoples Rx's, you sure miss a lot. It will take me months to use up what I got, so the door is nowhere near where I am headed atm. I think you don't retain as much as you could when you drink every night. It's like a broken record, your morning posts are brilliant. Your evening posts are mean spirited and contradicting. Check that brother, before you wreck that.

As for the grow, I will show a couple pictures for reference to my feeding levels. First pic is of my deps. I have been using the fertigation rates I posted up on these plants, along with 1-3 cups top dress Bio live per 45-100 gallon plant. Anybody still think I am overdoing my large plants at this rate?

here is a couple large plants, that are green and feeding right on track IMO. First AOG, second picture is SSDD and Dream Beaver. These all got a top dress, and feed at the rates posted.

Here is a picture of a Silver Mountain from Bodhi. (ssh cross) This plant is a HOG!! She keeps taking anything I throw at her, and still hasn't greened up yet. I am thinking I need a couple applications of Pure Protein Dry, cause the Sea Shield will never green a plant this large up on it's own. IMO of course.

And an overall shot of the garden. My application rates are working great for me. Thanks for sharing those of who were willing.

 

[reppin2c]

here I go getting bunched up with questions before I get responses, but Do I need to mix up the 14 yards of soil before I take samples? Id think yes but you may say otherwise.

I never thought 14 yards was so damn much, to all yall that put in the extra effort to do it yourself I have a world of new respect for you. Tossing around 3 cuft bags over and over, tracking around the soil a million times, getting so hot you hear people talking to you (noone around for 50 acres). Takes time and dedication. Do you dep folks really do this 2-4 times a year??? no wonder people started doing notill.

I would have just planted in it. No test and rolling. You been talking about it for hella days. All of those days are lost veg time. It's at the point of take action and pick up some pieces later. Next go around take a small sample from different pots throw them into a clean bucket and mix them up. SeND that in

 

[Lightweight]

Yea use oyster shell instead of vansil in that case. Try to source everything locally.

Can you ask the lab if the P is elemental P or Phosphate (P2O5)? And also if that ug/g is ppm? And did they measure sulfer or sulfate?

And yea if you can get Michael to take a look and I will try to figure it out...we can compare recommends. theoretically this is just a process so we ought to reach the same answers...maybe not on what to use but at least at the elemental level

It is going to take me some calculating to figure base cation % and it is going to be clouded by the pH over 7. So give me a day or two and I will also look at the aea stuff and let you know what I think based on your specific soil

Ultimately the goal for you is to get the soil right and not use anything you have to order in

So the lab said the phosphorous is elemental phosphorous and micrograms/grams is the same as ppm.

They didn't test for sulfur, but said they still could, but it would be another week. They said they don't normally test for sulfur here because soils in Hawaii are rarely deficient in it. My greenhouse dirt isn't native though. It is on top of native soil and I used compost from native plants and amended with manure from local horses so maybe that would bump up the sulfur content. I ended up telling them to test for sulfur on both tests.

 

[FoothillFarming]

My plants are starting to loose some energy still, at double the rate recommended by leadsled for small plants, and with the top dressing of biolive. I am thinking of upping the nutrient levels one more time before flower sets in. I have several yards of finished castings I am going to top dress with more bio live, and keep the doubled rates from AEA.........Will report how it goes in a couple weeks.

Plant sap ph is 6.3

Brix is 19

Been using about a gallon and a half per total feeding of both the Rej and Sea Shield. Ridiculous.

 

[milkyjoe]

Here's the soil and water test results I got back. If anybody want to help a brother out I would greatly appreciate it. If not, no worries. I was thinking of having Michael Astera write of a Rx until I figure this stuff out myself.

Here's the soil test.
The greenhouse is where I flower all my plants. It's a nice looking soft soil as far as soil goes. I added quite a bit of peat, compost and cinder to it a few years ago, but haven't added any since. just cow and horse manure, Nutri-Rich pellets, 50/50 dolomite gypsum mix and a little neem meal here and there and I mulched with 6"-8" of wood chips about a year ago. And maybe some other stuff along the way, but I can't remember.

The field soil is where I'm going to put one of my new greenhouses and would like to use the native dirt if it's possible. I'm still figuring all this stuff out so I'm not sure how workable the native dirt is. It's had horses and goats grazing on it on and off and has field grass and weeds growing in it. And it seems like it's mostly clay.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=68231&pictureid=1620924&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Here's the heavy metals results.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=68231&pictureid=1620925&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

And here's my water results which I really have no idea on yet. I'm not anywhere close to figuring out how stuff in my water works with stuff in my soil yet.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=68231&pictureid=1620926&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Other than the PH being too high in both soils I'm still not sure about any of this stuff, but I'm working on it. I've been reading my way through the Balancing Soil Minerals thread and I'm planning on buying M. Astera's book. It sounds like a good one to learn about balancing minerals and understanding soil tests results.

So, I am focusing on the greenhouse right now. There is still one big if involved, because the pH is 7.7 that says you have too many base cations. So depending on how the lab does the tcec you may not have a correct tcec.

So here is how I figured it...

Ca...You want 68%. So .68 x 400 (the meq weight for Ca) x 28.5 tcec) = 7752 lbs per acre or 3876 ppm when you have 4611 ppm...so you are high on Ca. That means unless your lab used an AA 8.2 test to determine tcec it is not reported right.

Mg...You want 12%. So 0.12 x 240 (the meq for Mg) x 28.5 = 820 lbs per acre or 410 ppm. You have 495 so you are a little high on that.

K...You want 5%. So 0.5 x 780 x 28.5 = 1112 lbs per acre or 556 ppm and you have 381. So that isn't high.

Did your lab do Na?

As far as the AEA stuff...the standard for nutralive parts a and b for 1000 sq ft (and your gh is 400 sq ft so multiply these by 0.4 and to further convert them to ml multiply by 29.57 ml per ounce)

Part A 3 oz, Part B 2 oz and those are for both foliar and fertigated. And I forget if you have accelerate but if you do replace a foliar at bud onset with 10.5 ounces per 1000 sq ft of Accelerate (fire in a bottle as me buddy byf says).

On top of that you should fertigate 1/4 tsp of rejuvenate a week to keep your micros working. And you can also foliar 1/4 tsp micro 5000/pz 1000 and 2 ml of pepzyme per week. Alternate them or just use micro 5000 if you don't have pz1000.

If that alone does not keep your plants healthy then your soil is the problem. I would not change anything in the soil right now. Just add the AEA stuff and see if that improves things.

The book the intelligent gardener by steve Solomon is also a good resource with some info aimed right at calcareous soils. I will try to reread that section tonight. I am just really swamped for time right now but I will help further if I can.

Also if Orecheron happens to read this maybe he will chime in if he sees a problem with my logic.

edit...shit I forgot. Also chuck maybe15 grams of borax per yard of soil in there...dissolve it in water and fertigate it in. If you have Accelerate you are ok for mn, if not let me know

 

[Dab Strudel]

http://www.eductors.us/nozzles.html ...just sayin

eastbay...do you have a soil test?

What were you 'just sayin'? I dont see how this piece would help us.
I was looking back to find what foliar head you had posted before, but apparently this wasnt it. do you have the link to the nozzle you use?

 

[milkyjoe]

Not worded the best. I mighta been high.

I use a Dramm Foggit nozzle...that is the spray part. All alone it works fine, but add in front of it a kind of venturi deal to speed the liquid up and it is even better. I fill a container, chuck a pump (just an electric from harbor freight) in there, attach the nozzle to a 75 ft hose and I can cover most of my gardens. I would recommend Teflon tape unless you wanna get wet.

 

[Lightweight]

So, I am focusing on the greenhouse right now. There is still one big if involved, because the pH is 7.7 that says you have too many base cations. So depending on how the lab does the tcec you may not have a correct tcec.

So here is how I figured it...

Ca...You want 68%. So .68 x 400 (the meq weight for Ca) x 28.5 tcec) = 7752 lbs per acre or 3876 ppm when you have 4611 ppm...so you are high on Ca. That means unless your lab used an AA 8.2 test to determine tcec it is not reported right.

Mg...You want 12%. So 0.12 x 240 (the meq for Mg) x 28.5 = 820 lbs per acre or 410 ppm. You have 495 so you are a little high on that.

K...You want 5%. So 0.5 x 780 x 28.5 = 1112 lbs per acre or 556 ppm and you have 381. So that isn't high.

Did your lab do Na?

As far as the AEA stuff...the standard for nutralive parts a and b for 1000 sq ft (and your gh is 400 sq ft so multiply these by 0.4 and to further convert them to ml multiply by 29.57 ml per ounce)

Part A 3 oz, Part B 2 oz and those are for both foliar and fertigated. And I forget if you have accelerate but if you do replace a foliar at bud onset with 10.5 ounces per 1000 sq ft of Accelerate (fire in a bottle as me buddy byf says).

On top of that you should fertigate 1/4 tsp of rejuvenate a week to keep your micros working. And you can also foliar 1/4 tsp micro 5000/pz 1000 and 2 ml of pepzyme per week. Alternate them or just use micro 5000 if you don't have pz1000.

If that alone does not keep your plants healthy then your soil is the problem. I would not change anything in the soil right now. Just add the AEA stuff and see if that improves things.

The book the intelligent gardener by steve Solomon is also a good resource with some info aimed right at calcareous soils. I will try to reread that section tonight. I am just really swamped for time right now but I will help further if I can.

Also if Orecheron happens to read this maybe he will chime in if he sees a problem with my logic.

edit...shit I forgot. Also chuck maybe15 grams of borax per yard of soil in there...dissolve it in water and fertigate it in. If you have Accelerate you are ok for mn, if not let me know

Thank you for your help milky, it is deeply appreciated.

I emailed the lab today and ask how they determine tcec in alkaline soils. They haven't got back to me yet. And sodium wasn't tested for. I assumed they would've tested for sulfur and sodium in their standard soil test, but I was wrong, I had to request those specifically. I can ask them to test for sodium still and it will probably be done next week along with the sulfur test.

Is the 1/4 tsp. of Rejuvenate, Micro 5000, PZ1000 and the 2 ml. of Pepzyme per gallon of water used or for the whole greenhouse?

And I did order Accelerate also. I also got PhotoMag, SeaCrop, SeaShield, BioGenesis and MycoGenesis and maybe another thing or two; I'd have to check. Would you recommend any of those too?

I'll check out Steve Solomon's book too.

Thanks again braddah, you have been a big help

 

[milkyjoe]

http://bionutrient.org/library/soil-nutrition-conference-archive If you go here and find the be your own soil balancing consultant it is a good listen. This guy was trained by Neal Kinsey who was trained by Albrecht. He gives up some nuances that Solomon does not.

On the spectrum, micro 5000, pepzyme thing those rates will be fine for the entire GH.

But on the a and b stuff those are for 1000 sq ft. So 3 ounces becomes 36 ml for the GH and 2 ounces becomes 24 ml.

You may need some extra photomag, so it is 3/4 of an ounce per 1000 or 9 ml per 400 sq ft every other week or so. Try not to let them get to the point of a Mg deficiency. When that happens the sap was short about 2 weeks before that.

There is plenty of Sea Shield in a, b and Accelerate. If you want to occasionally, like once a month, really bump the microbiology you could use 9 ml of Sea Shield and Rejuvenate along with 4.5 ml of Sea Crop and say 20 grams of either myco or biogenesis. They are the same bacteria, myco just has the added fungi.

When the lab gets back to you I will take a look at the native soil

edit...and between grows you can add 6 oz/1000 Rejuvenate, 3 oz Sea Shield and a tsp or so Myco or Biogenesis. You will have a lot of roots and stuff to digest and this will move that right along