Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[FoothillFarming]

That is very helpful, thanks for sharing Reppin2c.

Your and Screws foliar rates are quite high compared to what I have been doing. Shows why I haven't been having the best plant responses from the sprays. Nothing negative, but seems slightly ineffective at my rates.

My deps are soooooo much more manageable than my full season plants. Sticking to just deps makes a huge amount of sense.

 

[xmobotx]

i look at the pepzyme kinda like molasses in compost tea ~as a feedstock for microbial action

 

[orechron]

Pepzyme isn't the raw material they use for food though, its just breaking down larger food molecules into smaller ones.

I'm picturing microbes suspended in a soil solution running into a large carbohydrate for example. Instead of having to excrete an enzyme to break it into a smaller, more easily absorbed compound, the work is already done. I think this is why it works as such a good stimulant, decreasing time and energy for population growth.

 

[Lightweight]

Depending on what you got from AEA I use Albion...and JHBiotech is as good or better...instead of AEA Calcium. If you use a Ca meter you will find the amino chelated stuff gets into the plant quicker. I suspect really fast growing plants will always need Ca foliars. It is only available through the xylem and depends on transpiration to move it to the growing tips. You will find when your plants are growing a foot a week or something like that Ca does not always get to the tips. Sometimes that is a lack of Boron, but either way the tips need Ca. I spray once a week when I am spraying and include the Ca with everything else.

Thank you for the info milkyjoe, I appreciate it.

I ordered Rejuvenate, Spectrum, Sea Shield, Micro 5000, PZ 1000, BioGenesis, MycoGenesis, Sea Crop, Accelerate, PhotoMag, the NutriLive Package and I think Pepzyme also.

I think it'll all last awhile. I only run 28-35 plants outdoors year-round and have some vegging indoors all the time too. I hope it lasts awhile anyway, shipping to Hawaii is steep, ha ha. We have a saying here, "That's the price you pay for living in paradise" and it came to be true once more, ha ha. Anyway, I'm excited to get my soil pumping. Up till this point I've just grown by feel and my flowers turn out great, but I know I can do better and have bigger yielding healthier plants. Right now I have one 20'x20' greenhouse and I've got 2 20'x40' greenhouses on there way here and I want to get them off to a good start and keep up on trying to have my soil balanced especially since it never get a break of more than a week. Growing by feel all the time is probably going to bite me in the butt someday and I just need to move up to a different method of growing where I have a better idea of what's actually going on in the soil.

My first soil tests from the university here should be back by tomorrow so I'm pretty excited about that.

Also, I've used the Ferti-Nitro with the JH Biotech calcium a couple times and my plants are loving it. I know I'm short on nitrogen in the new soil I'm working in and I'm going to guess I'm short on nitrogen in my other soil too because they all had a nice boost in growth after a foliar and soil drench.

Thanks again braddah for the info

 

[Lightweight]

Also, I was listening to the seminars on the first page of this thread and both John Kempf and Dan Kittredge said they thought hugelkultur would be a good idea to promote fungal growth in the soil. With that being said I have a couple semi-truck loads of composted woodchips I can use in or on top of my soil. There's still some actually woodchips, but most of it is between the consistency of wood fines to black dirt.

Have any of you guys used composted woodchips as a mulch or in your soil with positive or negative effect?

I also have a dumptruck load of GOOD horse manure that I've used before with positive results that I could mix in if anybody has any input on either.

I'm assuming this is a "get it tested" type of question, but maybe horse manure and composted wood chips don't differ that much? Thanks for any input guys and again I appreciate everyone's input in this thread

 

[Avenger]

isn't pepzyme a fulvic acid extract?

 

[orechron]

Avenger,

They don't list it but it may be used in production. I think what they are doing is growing specific microorganisms, letting them produce enzymes, then centrifuging out the bacteria and fungi to leave an enzyme rich solution. There are probably small amounts of nutrients left. Can't say for sure, but the container never swells. Seems kind of like stalled out kombucha culture.

 

[milkyjoe]

Avenger...what makes you think that? It is clear colored. Tainio is very secretive also. They only list what they are forced to

 

[Dab Strudel]

If I wanted to use soil from last year what would I expect to have to do if it just sat under an open walled green house since last October? *In Peanuts voice* It's HAWWWWT here. I am going to get a soil test done this week, but tell me, would it be worth it or would the condition of the soil be some sort of useless? its bagged 707 and they used earth juice, but when I was gathering the soil there was a miticide/pesticide 'safe for ag use' label on the ground.. If they used it would it be in the soil still? should I pass up on the soil?If its good I assume the commonly talked about line up of AEA, Tainio, etc will be in order, but should I add/up anything in particular to get things going at first?

Bonus question: What size pots would yall use being this late of the year? probably 3' tall plants going in probably next friday. Im actually thinking raised beds, its only about 32 ft GH its going into, so i guess my question is how much soil per plant?

 

[TheOutlawTree]

This may have been asked already somewhere on this thread, but what do y'all think is in their rejuvenate besides molasses? Clearly there's some sort of microbes in there, but is that the only secret is the specific species of microbes?

I just wonder why it's so pricey vs plain old molasses.

 

[milkyjoe]

It also has kelp and sea crop in it. I will pm you on the rest.

 

[milkyjoe]

Also, I was listening to the seminars on the first page of this thread and both John Kempf and Dan Kittredge said they thought hugelkultur would be a good idea to promote fungal growth in the soil. With that being said I have a couple semi-truck loads of composted woodchips I can use in or on top of my soil. There's still some actually woodchips, but most of it is between the consistency of wood fines to black dirt.

Have any of you guys used composted woodchips as a mulch or in your soil with positive or negative effect?

I also have a dumptruck load of GOOD horse manure that I've used before with positive results that I could mix in if anybody has any input on either.

I'm assuming this is a "get it tested" type of question, but maybe horse manure and composted wood chips don't differ that much? Thanks for any input guys and again I appreciate everyone's input in this thread

So if you listen to those lectures you would also hear Dan say, never, ever, never add wood chips to soil. The problem is they require a ton of N to break them down, the same N that could be going to your plants.

If they are fine enough....mmmmm, probably ok. But better yet would be pile that horse shit and those wood chips together and let em percolate for the rest of the year. Maybe chuck some Ca in there, compost is always short of Ca. And this might be a case where oyster shell is right, unless you aren't on a coast, then use Vansil W10 from Custom Hydro Nutrients...you will be happier. Si makes a huge difference and this is the cheapest and bestest way to get it.

 

[milkyjoe]

Thank you for the info milkyjoe, I appreciate it.

I ordered Rejuvenate, Spectrum, Sea Shield, Micro 5000, PZ 1000, BioGenesis, MycoGenesis, Sea Crop, Accelerate, PhotoMag, the NutriLive Package and I think Pepzyme also.

I think it'll all last awhile. I only run 28-35 plants outdoors year-round and have maybe up to another 60 vegging indoors. I hope it lasts awhile anyway, shipping to Hawaii is steep, ha ha. We have a saying here, "That's the price you pay for living in paradise" and it came to be true once more, ha ha. Anyway, I'm excited to get my soil pumping. Up till this point I've just grown by feel and my flowers turn out great, but I know I can do better and have bigger yielding healthier plants. Right now I have one 20'x20' greenhouse and I've got 2 20'x40' greenhouses on there way here and I want to get them off to a good start and keep up on trying to have my soil balanced especially since it never get a break of more than a week. Growing by feel all the time is probably going to bite me in the butt someday and I just need to move up to a different method of growing where I have a better idea of what's actually going on in the soil.

My first soil tests from the university here should be back by tomorrow so I'm pretty excited about that.

Also, I've used the Ferti-Nitro with the JH Biotech calcium a couple times and my plants are loving it. I know I'm short on nitrogen in the new soil I'm working in and I'm going to guess I'm short on nitrogen in my other soil too because they all had a nice boost in growth after a foliar and soil drench.

Thanks again braddah for the info

I am more than a little fucked up right now but I wanna save a spot to reply. Get back to you tomorrow.

 

[milkyjoe]

If I wanted to use soil from last year what would I expect to have to do if it just sat under an open walled green house since last October? *In Peanuts voice* It's HAWWWWT here. I am going to get a soil test done this week, but tell me, would it be worth it or would the condition of the soil be some sort of useless? its bagged 707 and they used earth juice, but when I was gathering the soil there was a miticide/pesticide 'safe for ag use' label on the ground.. If they used it would it be in the soil still? should I pass up on the soil?If its good I assume the commonly talked about line up of AEA, Tainio, etc will be in order, but should I add/up anything in particular to get things going at first?

Bonus question: What size pots would yall use being this late of the year? probably 3' tall plants going in probably next friday. Im actually thinking raised beds, its only about 32 ft GH its going into, so i guess my question is how much soil per plant?

Let us see the test. Chances are it is fine to use with adjustments...but lets see.

A 3 foot plant needs a yard of dirt to fully develop right now. If you use half of that it will finish quicker and not be all it could be...but it can still be pretty good. So a yard if you can, less if you cant and work with it.

 

[Lightweight]

So if you listen to those lectures you would also hear Dan say, never, ever, never add wood chips to soil. The problem is they require a ton of N to break them down, the same N that could be going to your plants.

If they are fine enough....mmmmm, probably ok. But better yet would be pile that horse shit and those wood chips together and let em percolate for the rest of the year. Maybe chuck some Ca in there, compost is always short of Ca. And this might be a case where oyster shell is right, unless you aren't on a coast, then use Vansil W10 from Custom Hydro Nutrients...you will be happier. Si makes a huge difference and this is the cheapest and bestest way to get it.

Thanks for looking out milky. I did hear Dan say not to add wood chips to soil. I definitely wouldn't add fresh wood chips anyway.

Here's a pic of the wood chips


If I was just doing things by feel still I was going to make a screen out of 1/4" hardware cloth and screen out all the bigger stuff and do a 50/50 mix with the horse manure and add a 50/50 mix of gypsum and dolomite and put about 8" on top of the dirt I'm going to start working with and till it down 6" into the top for about 14" overall and maybe top dress with some 4-3-2 Nutri-Rich pellets, but with all the new stuff I'm learning I don't really want to jump the gun on anything so I guess I'll be doing some composting for now.

I have oyster shell flour on hand too. I wouldn't be opposed to getting some Vansil, but I'd probably ask your buddy if he could just fill me up a couple large flat rate boxes, ha ha; the shipping on a 50lb bag was $110. I've paid some stupid shipping rates before, but I don't think I can pay that much for a $13 bag, ha ha.

 

[Lightweight]

Here's the soil and water test results I got back. If anybody want to help a brother out I would greatly appreciate it. If not, no worries. I was thinking of having Michael Astera write of a Rx until I figure this stuff out myself.

Here's the soil test.
The greenhouse is where I flower all my plants. It's a nice looking soft soil as far as soil goes. I added quite a bit of peat, compost and cinder to it a few years ago, but haven't added any since. just cow and horse manure, Nutri-Rich pellets, 50/50 dolomite gypsum mix and a little neem meal here and there and I mulched with 6"-8" of wood chips about a year ago. And maybe some other stuff along the way, but I can't remember.

The field soil is where I'm going to put one of my new greenhouses and would like to use the native dirt if it's possible. I'm still figuring all this stuff out so I'm not sure how workable the native dirt is. It's had horses and goats grazing on it on and off and has field grass and weeds growing in it. And it seems like it's mostly clay.


Here's the heavy metals results.


And here's my water results which I really have no idea on yet. I'm not anywhere close to figuring out how stuff in my water works with stuff in my soil yet.


Other than the PH being too high in both soils I'm still not sure about any of this stuff, but I'm working on it. I've been reading my way through the Balancing Soil Minerals thread and I'm planning on buying M. Astera's book. It sounds like a good one to learn about balancing minerals and understanding soil tests results.

 

[milkyjoe]

Yea use oyster shell instead of vansil in that case. Try to source everything locally.

Can you ask the lab if the P is elemental P or Phosphate (P2O5)? And also if that ug/g is ppm? And did they measure sulfer or sulfate?

And yea if you can get Michael to take a look and I will try to figure it out...we can compare recommends. theoretically this is just a process so we ought to reach the same answers...maybe not on what to use but at least at the elemental level

It is going to take me some calculating to figure base cation % and it is going to be clouded by the pH over 7. So give me a day or two and I will also look at the aea stuff and let you know what I think based on your specific soil

Ultimately the goal for you is to get the soil right and not use anything you have to order in

 

[oct]

The chance of michael doing an Rx for you is slim to none. Buy the book and get express shipping if possible. Everyday counts at this point.

Edit: I saw milky is willing to help so thats a big plus.

 

[Dab Strudel]

Let us see the test. Chances are it is fine to use with adjustments...but lets see.

A 3 foot plant needs a yard of dirt to fully develop right now. If you use half of that it will finish quicker and not be all it could be...but it can still be pretty good. So a yard if you can, less if you cant and work with it.

aw man, I just did some rough numbers for how much soil I have and I think I only have 14.4 yards of soil :/ I hope you can answer this-
If I wanted to stretch it to 20 plants, how big would the plants be in the end roughly? 6' around? should I hold my breath for more than 5lbs (as long as things go right)? They're going to be Sour D x (Blue Dream x Afgoo), really sativa dominant. Should I rethink the strian? its whats available but if thats too long then ill keep looking.
Will I have to suppliment at the end of the year using .72 yards per (20 plants)... would I be better off doing 16? at this point sadly im going for yield. lacking soil and time next year Ill compete, but this is better than nothing so I guess I should

As far as testing goes, should I get both saturated and base test done?

If you had a military grade bladder would you think last years water is still good now if it was in the sun? I drank a half gallon on an empty stomach, despite the silicon looking build up on the steel fitting, I felt fine the next couple days, voids were intact... is that a bad way to measure lol should I get it tested or is it all bad? taste like river water really.

 

[plantingplants]

There's also a product called nitrified wood out that has N added. So maybe you can nitrify it yourself if it isn't totally decomposed yet. Rare Earth sells it as 'nitro humus'.

I wonder if plants need less soil if in a bed, so they can make complete use of the soil. Though root crowding could be a thing. I connected all my mounds so they could share.