Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[milkyjoe]

I ordered a bunch of AEA stuff a couple weeks ago. Hopefully it makes it here (Hawaii) intact.

What did you order?

For you guys using Ferti-Nitro or PPD, how often do you use them? And do you guys foliar Calcium at the same time or a day before or after? I remember some discussion about using them with calcium in the Large Plants thread, but that was probably a couple years ago and I didn't take notes. Also does anybody think Ferti-Nitro or PPD is better? I got some Ferti-Nitro from customhydronutrients along with some JH Biotech calcium, just FYI.

PPD and Ferti Nitro are similar. I like Ferti Nitro cause I like custom hydro, other people like PPD. One is cod, the other is soybean. Both provide a readily available and easily assimilated source of aminos and peptides which save the plant a lot of energy not having to convert N from nitrate into aminos into peptides into protein. You want your plant to have protein instead of free nitrogen, this is probably the main key to plant health, or at least one of them.

I do not use it on a regular basis. I use it only when I think I have an N shortage. If you are relying on it on a regular basis then get more N in your soil

Thank for any input guys and for everybody's contributions. This is one of my favorite canna threads. All sorts of good info here.

Depending on what you got from AEA I use Albion...and JHBiotech is as good or better...instead of AEA Calcium. If you use a Ca meter you will find the amino chelated stuff gets into the plant quicker. I suspect really fast growing plants will always need Ca foliars. It is only available through the xylem and depends on transpiration to move it to the growing tips. You will find when your plants are growing a foot a week or something like that Ca does not always get to the tips. Sometimes that is a lack of Boron, but either way the tips need Ca. I spray once a week when I am spraying and include the Ca with everything else.

 

[milkyjoe]

Orech...that is bad ass. Can I ask how high you have gotten Mn in the soil? Who would have guessed the true bud enhancer was Mn...but it is as long as cytokinins are at least a little dominant over auxins and there is enough energy in the plant.

You start manipulating hormones and enough is good, too much can be a disaster.

 

[milkyjoe]

amino acids are zwitterions,
phospholipids can be too

Can you explain how phospholipids chelate? Given John's love of fats I would bet this is how AEA does it.

If you go to Albions site and look through the archives they explain how that works. You can chelate a cation with a plus 2 charge or more...you complex a single valent cation. Gotta get that claw attached in two spots.

 

[milkyjoe]

So forgive me if this has been answered but maybe it's still relevant anyway since they've changed their products, but if you really had to narrow down to one, two, or three foliar products, what is the best? What's really worth it?

Mj, how much more do you yield with bd? Is there really no new crosses that yield as well? I talked to a guy who used to run only bd but switched to a strain called Super Bubba.

If I had to use two it would be the A and B stuff...NutraLive or HoloMic/Mac. If I could add a third it would be accelerate.

I am not a fan of talking about yield on the internet...to me it is kinda like talking about dick size on a dating site. There is a fair amount of lying going on. A really good branch may weigh about a quarter of a pound, that means you have to have at least 40 branches on a 10 lb plant, and actually more cause unless you have the right amount of Mn not every branch is gonna weigh that. So when you look at a plant does it have more than 40 branches in the sun?

But yea, I am sure there are things that yield as much as BD now. The question is are they as good. BD, if you take it long enough, is very good. The problem is a lot of people do not take it long enough and it got a bad rep. The same will happen eventually with anything that lots of people grow. It is a shame, but it is what it is.

My buddy space gave me a cherry diesel that may get the job done. I have row v row right next to each other this yr to see, but it goes long, you really need to take it to Nov to get the real diesel flavor out of it...but it is excellent smoke if you do, like really excellent.

I am sure there are others.

 

[orechron]

amino acids are zwitterions,
phospholipids can be too

I thought amino's would be used but all their products are also surfactants. They don't have any preservatives either so as best as I can tell, the surfactant itself might be the zwitterion.

Orech...that is bad ass. Can I ask how high you have gotten Mn in the soil? Who would have guessed the true bud enhancer was Mn...but it is as long as cytokinins are at least a little dominant over auxins and there is enough energy in the plant.

You start manipulating hormones and enough is good, too much can be a disaster.

I don't know how high I got it just yet this round, but the previous round with the room full of legend was prob around 40ppm. I inadvertently leach quite a bit because of the various sulfates I've used and it kind of wants to go down to 15-20ppm at the end of runs despite constant application.

Oh, I also used brassinosteroids this round so that might be a big factor.

 

[plantingplants]

Orech, what did you use besides brassinolide? How did it go? Did you post about it anywhere?

Milky, thanks. I had a feeling and was actually going to ask not for a weight, but a percentage. E.g., maybe you consistently pull 10% more than most strains? Just wondering how drastic it is.

As far as AEA picks, do you know why the Mac and Mic combo only have Ca, Cu, Zn, Mn for secondary and micros? What about Mg or B? I guess I'm really asking why not just include everything? Sell more products? Or more flexibility to apply what you need?

Do you think MicroPak can replace HoloMic or is that special juice in there the important part...

 

[FoothillFarming]

Blue Dream is boring, and nobody in Cali wants it. If you are trying to stay in the legal market, not many clubs need blue dream, they are already growing it themselves. Last year, I got several 10+ lb plants. NL #5 always brings the weight, but not always the quality. My Ancient Og's from Bodhi yielded around 10 on average, and tested around 28%.

I only use MicroPak and photomag for my micro's and they seem to be doing the job.

Milky or anybody else: Are you guys adding Albion Metalosate Calcium to your soil drenches? I have only been using mine in foliar applications, at a rate of 1 gram per gallon foliar. If you guys are using as a soil drench, at what rates?

 

[milkyjoe]

Orech, what did you use besides brassinolide? How did it go? Did you post about it anywhere?

Milky, thanks. I had a feeling and was actually going to ask not for a weight, but a percentage. E.g., maybe you consistently pull 10% more than most strains? Just wondering how drastic it is.

As far as AEA picks, do you know why the Mac and Mic combo only have Ca, Cu, Zn, Mn for secondary and micros? What about Mg or B? I guess I'm really asking why not just include everything? Sell more products? Or more flexibility to apply what you need?

Do you think MicroPak can replace HoloMic or is that special juice in there the important part...

HoloMic (or nutralive B) have replaced micropak. I don't think you can buy micropak anymore. So yea, you can use it til you need to reorder. Unfortunately I don't think you can believe shit on their labels anymore...they definitely have all of the secondary and micro shit, including Co and Mo and with the new emphasis on kelp they have iodine and all kinds of ultra traces

You would have to think photomag is in one of the mac/mic products. The mac is basically the color of sea shield so I am not sure where it is, but they did not give it up.

For me...BD yields about 15% more than chems (alien dog and southfork may have some exceptions). Killer Queen and Green Crack are close to BD for me. I apparently suck at growing OGs or Cookies or GG4 cause I don't yield well with them at all.

It is about your market. But with more demand for Lambos my strategy is to gather more cards (through me or a partner), run more grows and just run more lower yielding plants. It sucks but it is what it is.

 

[FoothillFarming]

FWIW, I just received 5 gal of micropak about a month ago.

 

[maxmurder]

Mj, how much more do you yield with bd? Is there really no new crosses that yield as well? I talked to a guy who used to run only bd but switched to a strain called Super Bubba.

i got some blue dream x chem 3 seeds from south fork seeds going this year- seems like it would be heavy. i got em for my chic she loves the blue dream.
i got an email today from aea- they now have online shopping with a cart and everything.

 

[milkyjoe]

so they added yucca to it?

Damn...as usual it turns out you are right. It finally occurred to my dumb ass to just check the material safety data sheet for Accelerate. Yucca is on the list. It says fish, water, leonardite, magnesium chloride (which I know is sea crop), molasses, seaweed and Mn, Zn and Co sulfate

HoloMac says water, leonardite, rock phosphate, Potassium Sulfate, Calcium carbonate and calcite.

HoloMic is water, leonardite, molasses, Zn, Cu and Mn sulfate.

It don't add up...Mac clearly has sea shield in it and no B to be seen. I ain't buying all of it.

 

[FoothillFarming]

Is anybody else willing to post up application rates? I have been upping my rates for over a month now, and also top dressing with 6-10 cups of Biolive per plant and I am still loosing overall energy in the plant. Been getting a great plant response the next day after applications, but fades quick.

These are my current rates per gallon, once a week. (soil drench)

8ml phosphorous
8ml holocal
2ml MicroPak
16ml Rejuvenate
16ml Sea Shield
4ml Sea Stim
8ml potassium

I have been skipping the potassium and phosphorous for a little while now, due to my soil be loaded up. Would love to hear what application rates others are doing outdoors this year.

 

[plantingplants]

At some point it would seem that a higher concentration in a foliar might be pointless as it would be limited by rate of uptake. Can anyone comment on that? Foothill, do you check the ppm of your mix?

I know for some nutrients, uptake actually decreases with a higher concentration.

Foothill, I read a study that showed even when the soil was stocked with K, foliar still improved yields but only slightly more. I'll find it later.

 

[milkyjoe]

sounds like you have shut down your soil biology. The most well known similar case is if the plant has enough P it will not send the exudate that feeds mycoorhizal fungi. I am sure the same applies to bacteria.

 

[Shcrews]

Is anybody else willing to post up application rates?

weekly foliar,
per gallon of water:

1oz special blend A
1oz special blend B
1ml pepzyme
1g pz1000 or micro5k, alternating weeks

 

[FoothillFarming]

At some point it would seem that a higher concentration in a foliar might be pointless as it would be limited by rate of uptake. Can anyone comment on that? Foothill, do you check the ppm of your mix?

I know for some nutrients, uptake actually decreases with a higher concentration.

Foothill, I read a study that showed even when the soil was stocked with K, foliar still improved yields but only slightly more. I'll find it later.

I agree. I have not raised my foliar rates more than 50%, where the fertigation rates are doubled. I do not check ppm, I mostly judge off plant response, mixed with brix and plant sap ph readings. My brix and sap ph was hard to read for a while, I was getting evening hail storms for a while so I didn't even bother.

My % of K at the start of the season was just over 5%, and other than Rej and sea shield, I haven't added much since. I am in the process of getting more soil/paste tests out in the mail here in the next week. I will post up when I get the results.

sounds like you have shut down your soil biology. The most well known similar case is if the plant has enough P it will not send the exudate that feeds mycoorhizal fungi. I am sure the same applies to bacteria.

Not sure why you would say that? You don't think it's possible for a plant to feed that much? We are talking 6-10 ft plants, that are busting through my second layer of netting which was measured 20ft long before install, 20 ft circumference once done.

When I applied my bio live, I also applied about a 1/2 or 1" layer of EWC from my bins, along with a good 1/2 lb of worms as well, per plant. When taking soil samples, I was digging up a fantastic amount of worms for only two applications of worms over the season. I would think the worm population would decrease if I was having microbial issues.

You care to share what the max rates are that you recommend? I seem to remember my rates being more like what BYF was recommending, yet you never told him his micro life was dying off? Also keep in mind, the 10 cup rate was added to 5 yard pots, per plant. So it sounds like more than it is. If you look at application rates from Down To Earth, they recommend more like 50 something cups as a top dress for that much soil. A second thing to keep in mind is my cover crop is pretty out of control also. Several thousand plants per planter.

QUOTE=Shcrews;7532160]weekly foliar,
per gallon of water:

1oz special blend A
1oz special blend B
1ml pepzyme
1g pz1000 or micro5k, alternating weeks[/QUOTE]

Nice! I keep buying bottles of Pepzyme, and not using it because I don't really understand that product. I was thinking it was more for breaking down material in the fall, after the crop is pulled.

Seems like people are liking the Special blend gear?

 

[milkyjoe]

Your soil should be enough to feed the plant on its own, the AEA is just a little kick above that. If you are depending on AEA or anything else to feed your plants you are running hydro. I recommend the rates AEA does, above that and you are on your own.

BYF knows how to keep his microbes alive and working. You don't see him asking for much advise or having many problems.

Chuck some Spectrum in there to get the microbiology going again. Feed the microbes not the plant...then when things are going well foliar, don't feed.

 

[FoothillFarming]

Your soil should be enough to feed the plant on its own, the AEA is just a little kick above that. If you are depending on AEA or anything else to feed your plants you are running hydro. I recommend the rates AEA does, above that and you are on your own.

BYF knows how to keep his microbes alive and working. You don't see him asking for much advise or having many problems.

Chuck some Spectrum in there to get the microbiology going again. Feed the microbes not the plant...then when things are going well foliar, don't feed.

Not sure if you are implying that I am asking for advice or having problems? The only thing I asked was what rates you recommend? I clearly shared what's been working for me several times? When BYF came on and had a conversation about his application rates and wondered about others, you don't give him heat?

Anyways, I personally dont thing my biology is effected, for the above stated reasons. things keep chugging along for me. Thanks anyway.

 

[milkyjoe]

Fair enough, good luck

 

[reppin2c]

At first I was hitting them pretty hard til my fresh soil came alive. Haven't fertigated for 2 weeks. I was at .1 soil EC. Hit them at 10 ml sea shield, 5 ml A/B. Soil went up to .5 EC so I quit feritgation.

Foliar I do 2 oz sea shield, 1 oz A/B. 2 weeks before bloom I add 1 oz sea stim and pht bloom, then roll that till the 4th week. Water only from week 4 on.

I also do AACT tuesdays. I use the appropriate guano bubble 24, add castings and molasses bubble an additional 24. The guano tea rocks for alot longer then fertigation. Almost rediculous

Also I run deps so my duration is really short compared to full term and my plants are real young.

I use the tainio 3 times in a life cycle

Hope that helps

I see a touch of hopper damage after I weed eated. So I'll bring in some Albion Ca and wait for the rental chickens to work the hoppers over. Sap PH was at 6.2 last so I could use a touch I suppose. Wanted the sea stim mostly to keep em from reaching thru the tarp like my first rUn did