Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[slownickel]

Here to learn...

Here to learn...

I am trying to learn a bit from you all, obviously varieties all have their specific details and I was hoping to gleam some of these issues from experienced growers.

In mandarin oranges, the Okitsu variety is completely different than the others. It won't take the high K, it needs high P and lots of Ca and then eats great. If you treat it like the others, it is horrible.

I have seen this is grape and avocado root stock as well. The topic is wide open though as most folks don't understand the basic concepts of base distribution so it is a bit of a tough conversation to have.

Thanks for the kind comments regarding my wife. She was a good woman. At the end of the day, I firmly believe her disease was a blatant calcium deficiency. She had constant acid reflux, splitting nails, etc.. and her Dr put her on calcium blockers! Said it made her disease worse. Wish I knew then what I know now.

I have a firm believe that the downfall of society can be related to nutrition. All the food is packed with N and K now adays, the fruits and veggies have no flavor. This makes folks irritable, more apt to act out without thinking.. Road rage comes to mind. All that sugar doesn't help either. More fuel on the fire.

If I were to suggest one book to read regarding this theme it would be that of Dr. Weston Price, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration". It is timeless. His work is second to none and describes the long term effects of poor human nutrition.

 

[FoothillFarming]

Dr. ******* does good work on nutrition and the human body. Has some talks with John Kempf also.

 

[FoothillFarming]

weird, M-E-R-C-O-L-A was edited by the site?

 

[slownickel]

M e r c o l a

M e r c o l a

He seems a bit wishy washy on nutrition at times. He doesn't seem to the concept that for Reams was super basic. If you are acid (urine and saliva) you can't take calcium supplements that are acid. If you are alkaline, the same goes, don't take calcium supplements that are alkaline.

We do the same in agriculture. When we need calcium in an alkaline soil we us calcium sulfate (gypsum) and small quantities of both calcium nitrate, calcium chloride and triple super phosphate (calcium phosphate). In acid soils we use much more calcium carbonate, less gypsum and more calcium nitrate (which is alkaline) as well as simple super phosphate which is less acidified.

I think M e r c o l a is like a lot of others, he reads or listens and then regurgitates. No real investigation nor testing of concepts. That was where Albrecht, Tiedjens, Reams and countless others separated themselves from the talking heads.

 

[milkyjoe]

I may not be an agronomist with yrs of experience, hell I may be a total idiot just babbling on the internet. But I did study the work of Victor Tiejens who does recommend 85% lime...which is a combo of Ca and Mg. Albrecht was at 80% if you add those two things together and people like Tainio and Kempf recommend 75% Ca and 12% Mg...87%. But that is in heavy field soil where a major role of the Ca is to flocculate clay particles. I don't say that here because everyone is using soils opened up by drainage amendments like pumice so I don't feel quite as much Ca is required.

Plus when you talk about dolomitic mountain ranges...dolomite lime I assume...you are talking about a 2 to 1 ratio of Ca:Mg. Simple math tells you that cannot be 90% Ca only. And on the math you cannot have 85% Ca and 8% K and have enough room on the cec sites for enough Mg to grow a crop, even universities will tell you that you need 250 pounds an acre...and no room for micros or H either.

I think we are saying the same thing only we separate Ca and Mg and maybe these other guys don't. Tell me what % of Mg is in that high Ca, 8% K soil? If it is anything at all that soil has a pH well over 7 and then you don't have the acidity to make the Ca available anyways.

 

[reppin2c]

I'm sorry if I ever came across as a wanna be agronomist all I really wanna be is chilling at the lake. Now if I could just pull down a feW pounds of kush at 20% brix maybe my dream will come true.

Got some pacificgro crab from a resaler from they're site. Got enough to go pretty heavy for my final push and build the frost.

Milky I know it's simple math and all but I don't feel like your giving 110% bra

Also a friend is pulling down softball tomatoes a few states away...secret ingredient is fish emulsion. I think I'm gonna take him up a notch next year

 

[MrBungle]

.

 

[FoothillFarming]

I think one thing we all can agree on, is the thread now has an agronomist with decades of experience. Lets not run him off with the pretentious feel this thread has on a regular basis. Please stay, share the wealth of knowledge. This thread has been a broken record for some time, we need fresh minds.

Sorry, MJ deserves no slack. If you help then great. If you are a lying asshole that gives RX's based on how sober you are, and how you feel about the person receiving the rx is unacceptable. Sorry, I have been dealing with that side of him for 5 years now, and absolutely nothing has changed. He appears to be a big nerd, that behind the computer feels like King Kong. I have gotten countless pm's in the last week with people telling me about their experience with Milky. Quite a few people feel he has given them poor advice, and when they test their soil for a second time after the recs, it appears that he gives bogus advice.

One thing people assume about me, is I don't know the answers to the questions I am asking. I know how to do the math for an Rx. I have read all the same books. I have an IQ that is a fair amount above average. (almost 140) When I read milky's recs, especially the ones directed at me, I constantly see red flags.

All I can say is for sure is he does this to me countless times, several times in the last week. He needs to wear that, and people need to be aware.

I could post up how my testing went with his business partner LeadSled, over 6 tests and then he gave up. Never dialed in the soil. (which I easily accomplished myself)

I ask the people of this thread, has anybody retested their soil after a milky recommendation? If so, post it up.

 

[FoothillFarming]

I'm sorry if I ever came across as a wanna be agronomist all I really wanna be is chilling at the lake. Now if I could just pull down a feW pounds of kush at 20% brix maybe my dream will come true.

Got some pacificgro crab from a resaler from they're site. Got enough to go pretty heavy for my final push and build the frost.

Milky I know it's simple math and all but I don't feel like your giving 110% bra

Also a friend is pulling down softball tomatoes a few states away...secret ingredient is fish emulsion. I think I'm gonna take him up a notch next year

So you push Sea Shield during flower? I know it's just a fungal food for the most part, but your not worried about the added N that late? I usually stop the sea shield about 3-5 weeks before harvest, and I start upping the molasses.

My rates of the sea shield seem to be maxing out around 15ml a gallon. My plants are really starting to vibrate.

 

[milkyjoe]

Reppin...you are absolutely correct I do not give 110%. The work of Nova Crop Control is pretty clear. The plant works exactly like soil in that it only holds so much...if one thing is too much something else has to be short. To my mind MicrobeMan is correct in better to let the microbes sort that out. Nova says the number one cause by far of deficiencies is not lack of available nutrients but too much of something else. Kempf says the same thing now that he has seen literally thousands of sap tests.

Having said that I have heard of people using double the rate that FF just mentioned, up to two ounces SS per week along with other things to balance it out. So if you wanna do that OK, your call.

If you believe what slow nickel is putting down then a better approach would be to use Accelerate instead of Sea Shield...extra cytokinins, rejuvenate and Mn with some Zn and Cu. You would be more close to a balanced mix.

Me, ima stick with working with the soil trying to not have to use anything else other than microbes. But that is me...I am not trying to tell anyone that doesn't want help to do. But if you do want my help do not expect me to push any bottle approach including AEA. I have been a victim of the moreon approach myself. Guaranteed you will at a minimum burn carbon out of the soil and will eventually need to replace the soil. At worst you will get it out of balance and suffer deficiencies.

I do not try to grow ultimate big plants. That seems like chasing fools gold to me. I work to accumulate multiple grows with decent counts to make up the difference

That is as honest as I can be.

maybe I need a break

 

[oct]

The biggest thing everybody should remember, all this is free. Nobody is getting paid here. You want perfect, find that stellar agronomist and pay that dude his wage. I waited in line for two weeks for my agronomist to help. Checking my inbox twice a day. He flaked. I came over here and had my soil wrapped up in a few days with the help of milky and orech.

Soil is like religion. Everybody believes something different. Even if two people share a common ground, there will still be variance.

I just know that a few years back I had an infestation of russet mites (I didn't even know russet mites existed until that happened) and milkyjoe was there to help right away and it saved me thousands of dollars.

I have no quarrel with anybody. I just wanted to say my two cents.

Take it easy.

 

[calisun]

I ordered nutalive on 6/29 and checked the tracking number todad. The package made to my state but not my city. Note says unable to deliver damaged package on 7/7. Looks like in need to find a comparable product at the local stores for now. Just a heads up for people ordering.

 

[FoothillFarming]

I ordered nutalive on 6/29 and checked the tracking number todad. The package made to my state but not my city. Note says unable to deliver damaged package on 7/7. Looks like in need to find a comparable product at the local stores for now. Just a heads up for people ordering.

Good luck with that..... They keep telling me I am the only one having these problems.....

I posted up my problems and got blasted. Thanks for sharing, people should be aware of the good and the bad. Just like the first post of the thread stated.

 

[TheOutlawTree]

Foothill- why always with the negativity / constant jabs at milky? The man is spending his own time trying to help people for free- I don't know how you could complain.

If not for Milkys help my farm wouldn't look nearly as nice as it does. It takes a special kind of person to share their hard earned knowledge with others, especially for free on the web.

 

[TheOutlawTree]

I've watered sea shield in, in the spring when plants were root bound- 1oz per gallon on back to back days without burn...

I've heard people say that it would be hard to burn plants with sea shield assuming your not watering in massive amounts- why is that?

I'm still sitting on 20 gallons of sea shield, but nitrates are already high.... It would be nice to use it up before the end of the year. I haven't fed my soil at all since I planted other than an initial rejuvenate / spectrum drench.

 

[FoothillFarming]

Foothill- why always with the negativity / constant jabs at milky? The man is spending his own time trying to help people for free- I don't know how you could complain.

If not for Milkys help my farm wouldn't look nearly as nice as it does. It takes a special kind of person to share their hard earned knowledge with others, especially for free on the web.

Well, go back over the last 15 or so pages. Milky really treated me like crap over and over without any reason or retaliation. I guess I am just tired of it. Free advice is one thing, look back at his advice to me, clearly sabotage. Others have pm'ed me with the same concerns......The same concerns I posted about the AEA gear others are complaining about also. (see 5 posts ago with calisun) It just was getting out of hand how Milky was responding to my feedback about the AEA product, which clearly others agree with.

I have said my piece, it is what it is. If others feel the need to ask why I am saying what I am saying, just go ahead and review the last 15 or so pages.

Garden looks great btw TheOutLawTree. I assume you are feeding more than the 2ml that has been recommended by some in this thread? Large plants are a whole different game huh?

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

So get you some fresh organic alfalfa straw and chuck a couple big handfuls in a 30 gal trash can. Add water and a splash of pepzyme and let it sit a day and then strain the straw off. Now let it sort of ferment another day in the shade.

This shit will be loaded with protozoa. If you have a good amount of bacteria these will cycle nitrogen. And that n will be organic vs nitrate saving your plant a shit load of energy creating protein.

Pepzyme is my favorite tool period. It builds life...and life begets life

Not sure if you're still here, Milky...but I have a couple questions...

How much water should I be using for the above Protozoa tea? Also, how much pepzyme? I have plenty of pepzyme and this tea sounds like something I can use.

Thanks in advance.

HB.

 

[slownickel]

Calcium

Calcium

MJ,

You are very correct about the distribution of bases, the higher calcium is for heavier soil no doubt about it. A very dear friend who is a plant physiologist from Univ. Calif. after I explained the concept of base distribution to him and how calcium opens up the soil, said to me that this is obviously the formula for air in the soil. He and You are both correct.

However, what does the plant need to achieve maximum genetic potential? First, lots of very functional roots. Roots that exude aminoacids with an exudate pH of 4 to 5. Meaning that roots can take up much more than what is water soluble....

The issue here is how do you measure that heavy soil? Air content? Drainage capacity? CEC?

I will use the concept of CEC over the rest.

At a CE of 15 or so, this soil starts acting like a clay. Holding water, nitrogen, etc. (all that organic material is a sponge).

If you run the numbers on a typical Italian soil, the 3% K, 5% Mg and 92% Ca or there abouts. That comes from the Italian grape growers, not me. And as they will happily tell you, they have thousands of years at growing, not 100+ years like in California.

A plant doesn't need all that magnesium in the soil. In fact, at about 30%+ magnesium, magnesium goes toxic.

Magnesium is completely translocatable from foliage to the roots. You want more Mg? Apply it foliarly. Don't risk Mg buildup in the soil. It is a bitch to get rid of.

If you really need Mg for your soil, use sulpomag. At 0-0-22-18Mg, it is great source of Mg and doesn't react like Mg Sulfate in the soil as sulpomag aka KMag is a mineral, unlike MgSO4 which is not.

I run my sands that have a CEC of 14 at 85% Ca. I am not advocating to anyone that everyone trust everyone, obviously for someone to be correct, someone must be wrong. Only testing of concepts will give you the correct answer.

Just take a plant or two and try it.

With that said, I have had growers that have added in their test strips an extra 50% more than the calculation in Ca and stuck with that dosis as they liked what they saw.

Realize that more calcium means more roots. With more roots, you have great nutrient pickup.

In September of last year there was a world wide avocado conference here in Peru. Everyone was here. Spain, S.Africa, New Zealand, Columbia, Mexico, Israel, California and obviously a bunch of Peruvians. Do you know what the largest common theme was in the 6 day conference? Calcium deficiency.

There is a very large company called Westfalia in S. Africa. They had trials running Ca to 68% and they still had Calcium deficiencies! Why? Good question. Given that Reams, Tiedjens and Albrecht came to the same conclusions, I would argue that my point and practice of 85% Ca is something that folks should try.

I am advocating experimentation. Like MJ, you find what you like and stick with it. Farmers in general don't like change. Especially if they are doing ok. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Unfortunately that mindset is very limiting.

Experiment.

 

[Avenger]

is magnesium sulfate a mineral?

A mineral is a naturally occurring substance, representable by a chemical formula, that is usually solid and inorganic, and has a crystal structure. It is different from a rock, which can be an aggregate of minerals or non-minerals and does not have a specific chemical composition.

the biggest hurdle with communicating ideas, in my humble opinion, is the mis-use of words.

 

[slownickel]

Mg Sulfate

Mg Sulfate

Magnesium sulfate is a chemically made magnesium form where they add sulfuric acid to it. Only in this form to my understanding (I may be wrong on this one) it is the only form that will inflate several times and cause this problem.

I have used lots of magnesium oxide and not seen the same problems but in soils with very low CEC levels of 3 and 4 in Petrolina, Brazil. The soil is little rocks and big sand particles mixed with a tad of clay. Horrible soils. Yet, with a couple of years of MgSO4 the soil was not manageable due to the lack of Calcium. Responded extremely well when we stopped using MgSO4 and went to Mg Oxide along with adding calcium carbonate and gyspum.

Sulpomag in this same situation worked super as well.

That was more than 15 years ago and now I would be betting more on Sulpomag and more P instead to head off Mg deficiencies.