3 plus 3=?

[jonas@diesel]

Hi there GMT...

first of all this is based on a 'superficial' research I made it may not be exactly (ups!) as I said but i think it helps to get the picture

now about the polyploid... well, normal plants (diploids) have two set of chromosomes per cell, so any plant containing more than two set per cell is know as a polyploid.
from my research i found that there can be as 3, 4 and 5 sets per cell on polyploids. These plants are know respectively as triploids, tetraploids, and pentaploids. My plants are tetraploids.
Although sometimes polyploidy is mistaken with whorled phylotaxy
which is a trilateral branching mutation common on south americam sativa strains (3 branch per node) but the stem does not slipt or top itself!
anyway, there is not much information available at least that i've found or deeply understand ...

other folks say and i quote... "Unless you actually test the DNA of a plant there is no way to tell if it is polyploid. "

honestly... i agree... but keep in mind that this kinda of expression it's not a common thing... that's for sure!

in my specific case i don't believe that the seeds were created with poisons like colchine
the strain was NYC Diesel form Soma, (and i bought them in Amsterdam, myself) ...he goes all way organic... i don't imagine him using that shit, at least i hope that's the case

about the smoke... it was obviously a different pheno comparing to the other NYCD i was growing, the plant it self showned Indica traits in many aspects (high included)
but this pheno had a hudge downside, at least for me, of all the 4 nycd i ended up with, this was the one with the worst flavour/taste.

For me taste/flavour is the most important thing in cannabis, the high comes right after

also in this grow i had a second 'polyploid' plant which for me was the keeper

so my quick/basic conclusion is 2 phenos with 'polyploid' expression: one was bad the other was a keeper

some picts:
Soma's New York City Diesel

week 5

week 8

week 10

week 11

week 12

at harvest (14 weeks)

the 'keeper' pheno

sorry if i went too long
cheers

 

[shaunmulok]

That's outstanding jonas, excuse me while i wipe the druel off my computer
some rep for sure

 

[GMT]

Hey Jonas, beautifull pics mate. Not too long at all. If you want some more info on polyploid talk, then click back to the start of this thread, you may find it interesting to read the first 10 pages or so.

 

[Strains]

Looking healthy in there GMT

 

[Alex-F]

Good to see you're still keeping this going. Some impressive pics here mate.

Looks to me like you're on the right track with your breeding plan.

 

[GMT]

Thanks Strains

Hey Alex, thanks mate, I'm still having a go at all this, not sure how much closer I'm getting to be honest, they aren't really any more common than they were a few generations ago. We all need a hobby though. Good to see you in here again.

 

[Alex-F]

Well from what I can tell, you always end up getting some tris, which is more than I have. I don't grow the numbers you do so probability is lower I guess, but I've never had a tri in the roughly 4 years of growing.

 

[GMT]

Yeah I always get a selection to choose from, but the ratio varies wildly from batch to batch. Could be 1 in 10 then 1 in 25, I would have expected them to get more and more common each batch, but still the fluctuations. I'll be honest and say I just can't work it out.

 

[Strains]

I'll be honest and say I just can't work it out.

Well it is one hard nut to crack, i was thinking that maybe they only got recessive genes/expressions and you need one with a dominant tri gene
(excuse my english im quite drunk right now)

 

[GMT]

The trouble with that theory is this: If it takes a double recessive gene combo to create the tri expression, then breeding 2 plants that express that pheno could only produce plants with that/those genes. The only way for a tri to not be passed on, is if it is a dominant gene that didnt get passed on or if it was a recessive gene mated to a plant that didnt posess the gene. But breeding 2 tri phenos is no guarantee of the seeds being tri's, in fact the majority of the time, they arent. Which is why I can't work it out.

 

[Strains]

damn, i was getting keen on that theory. well then it truly is a mind boggle! But take solice in the fact that even though the scientists beleive they know alot about genes and expressions, they never truly hit that "magic" mark where everything they predict really happens, i havent read about a single experiment where the numbers fit the calculations! theres alot humankind dont know about in genes and the ways they work together! youll get there eventually

 

[GMT]

While I wouldn't use it in a breeding program, it is getting tempting to self a tri to see the diversity in the offspring. That way I know its only one set of genes at play.

 

[Strains]

The trouble with that theory is this: If it takes a double recessive gene combo to create the tri expression, then breeding 2 plants that express that pheno could only produce plants with that/those genes. The only way for a tri to not be passed on, is if it is a dominant gene that didnt get passed on or if it was a recessive gene mated to a plant that didnt posess the gene.

Then what if the genes controlling the expressions isnt in the same place and arent matching up, couldnt the recessive gene be present in both parents without the genes pairing up, thus making the expression not happen? (i dont know i you get what i meant but atleast i tried

 

[GMT]

Hmm, for a second then, I liked that theory, but then for it to be accurate, the two plants would have had to evolve the tri-ness independantly. Since they all come from the same genetic heritage, the structure of their dna will have the same architecture. On top of that, if that theory was true, then none of the offspring would contain the pheno, instead I find siblings with it and without it. Whats more, I find some with a double pheno of it ie the quads. So it's possible that it is an expression of one side of the helix, one chromosome containing "double leaf". That would explain why some of the plants have only "single leaf" genes on both sides, some have 1 "double leaf" and 1 "single leaf" gene creating the tris, and some have the "double leaf" "double leaf" creating the quads. But then the maths don't add up. Its as if its a combo of 2 chromosomes combining in some way to form the tris. But the maths work out as if its a cross of 2 plants. 1 tall purple one and one short green one where tall and green are dominant and short and purple are recessive. The numbers then come out to 1 in 16 short purple plants. Which would work out about right for the tris over large populations. But When both parents are of the pheno I'm looking for ie both parents are short purples (using the example) then all offspring should be (short purple) or in my case tris, rather than maintaining the 1 in 16 ratio.

 

[Strains]

hmmm, just thinking out loud here, you are playing with the same genetics crossing back and forth with many generations rigth? Wouldnt some spontanius mutations arise? thus paving the road for my theory? sry for all the Q marks!

 

[GMT]

yeah I was just considering the the process of the haploid creation, and looking at the way that genes are reversed, doubled etc. etc. There may be some validity to the theory, but I still feel that the majority of dna versions would resemble the parental dna structure fairly closely. The horrible truth to the matter is that even though I have fought against the idea for so long, the maths would support the idea that tris are triploids, quads being tetraploids. The observations would then fall in line with predictions.

 

[Strains]

Yes perhaps, but being triploid or tetraploid would also result in larger than normal limbs on the plant (like huge leafs and huge stem, branches and so forth) do you see this in you plants? perhaps its a combination of many of the things discussed?

 

[GMT]

well thats one of the problems with the MJ plant, so many varieties, whats big for one is small for another, so in a polyhybrid, whats normal? Though the tri's arent really any different to the bi's other than the extra points of growth. So in reality I would have to say, no. The only reason I mention the possability is the frequency of their occurance.

 

[Strains]

Well for the poly theory to be true in any sense, then your starting materiel must have been poly to right? you havent used any poison (Colchichine) on them or tried to otherwise alter them!? i would put my vote in for : recessive gene with faulting combinations + unstable genetics (you have been inbreeding) perhaps it is time to make as many seeds from these lines, save em, and start opening new packs for another tri/quad with fresh genetics? Just thinking out loud

But the frequency you talk about, could it be a plant with poly far back in ancestry? wich then have come out during the inbreeding?

 

[GMT]

Well no not really. As I posted earlier in humans, in 5% of the cases, the diploid cells dont split into haploid cells, and pass both dna chains onto the offsrping which combines with the haploid cell of the other parent and creates a triploid baby. If in plants the maths are the same, then that creates the 1 in 10 numbers. With no poison involved.

I do have (have made) alternative crosses using these genes for that very purpose, trouble is the seeds are old now and have been stored very poorly, and so I cant get many to pop, certainly not enough to start a selection program, which would mean returning to the days of breeding any tri I find. Which is something that I'd rather not do, as it takes a while of selective breeding to bring the standard of plants up to that of other lines again. I've done that with this line, but it has taken far more years than I planned on spending on this, and I'm not so sure I want to put that time in again.