Wuhan Coronavirus is an Offensive Biological Warfare Weapon

[mexcurandero420]

This virus may not be natural.

[YOUTUBEIF]wJzGqVyAtlg [/YOUTUBEIF]

Interesting to know that anti-coagulants seems to be better to give than put the patient on a ventilator after research of a Swiss pathologist on 21 deceased people.

 

[shaggyballs]

Interesting to know that anti-coagulants seems to be better to give than put the patient on a ventilator after research of a Swiss pathologist on 21 deceased people.

Nice, catch on the anti-coagulant.
Lack of oxygen in the blood is killing folks.
I have been saying this for a month now.
What in the world is happening to their blood?
Why do they have to drain it out?
For the flu?

Ventilators are killing people unnecessarily.
I posted at least 5-6 links on this topic from medicalPHD's working in the covid ward.

But you get $40,000 per patient on a ventilator.

 

[troutman]

This surgeon doctor explains how it kills.

i.e. Pneumonia (fluid buildup)

HOW COVID-19 KILLS--I'm a Surgeon--And Why We Can't Save You

BTW: He's funny and mentions pimp at one point.

 

[shaggyballs]

I feel this information is incomplete.
And there are blood clotting issues.
Some of the patience are not getting tired.

Vents are killing some patience.
Ventilators are actually killing patients unnecessarily.
COVID19 Respiratory Management
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTGpWDIzEPQ
Webinar on Avoiding Intubation and Initial Ventilation in COVID19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZqNiQxJLSU
COVID Ventilation Round Table
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzUEI-z77Uk

 

[gaiusmarius]

Sorry Gaius if I offended you, was not the intention. I don't think you are a conspiracy theorist at all, so if somehow that came across I apologize. To be honest the only post of yours I had read in this thread initially was the one I quoted.

You said it exactly right- it's a complex subject, and anyone that tells you they understand it 100% is wrong- there is so much we still don't know about this thing.

All I can do is tell you from my perspective. I'm not a virologist, but I do understand biology & even genomics to a certain degree. Enough to inform a discussion at least, and interpret some basic data.

I just want to preface the discussion though by the fact that there are all sorts of agendas at play these days, confusing a message that is already difficult to understand.

In China, some are spreading information saying this was a US-based bio-weapon.
Iranian leaders also made the same claim. Chinese state media posted a quote from a moyor in NY state, who happened to have coronavirus antibodies, saying that he has the virus in November (in NY). The alternate & more likely scenario, he became an asymptomatic carrier when the virus arrived in NY. In fact if he were to have his virus sequenced, it would tell the tale of when & where he was infected, but the Chinese state media is pushing a narrative that it came from the US. And US media is pushing this equally uninformed narrative, that it's has been created in a lab.

Why? World powers have their own agendas, and will use all sorts of situations to get an upper hand. They thrive on creating confusion for other nations.

So please just keep in mind that the media you/we all consume, is greatly influenced by the political affiliations & leanings of the corporate conglomerate that owns that particular branch of big media.

In this climate, you need to develop a serious bullshit-o-meter. Don't just listen to the few words of a sound bite. Listen to the rest of what they say. Lots of people talking about things they don't understand. Newspaper & periodical (Newsweek!) articles posting articles written by people pushing an opinion.

Someone sent me a vid that had been taken down by youtube, it was 2 Drs that were involved with testing saying how we need to just open society back up, and they had all these data points they were using to justify their position.

Problem was, if you even had a basic understanding of biology & epidemiology, you could see all the flaws n their logic. So you could dissect the logical fallacies one by one, rather simple debate if you cared to take the time.

But this person said to me, "well everyone is arguing about facts these days, sometimes you just have to listen to the overall message"m which frankly blew my mind. If your overall message is supported by a series of assumptions (ie facts), and those assumptions can all easily (although time consumingly) refuted, once would assume that the overall arching message could be dismantled, too, right?

Nope. This was an ideology to this person. The facts didn't matter, which is frustrating to someone that believes that there is such a thing as an intrinsic truth in the universe, not multiple truths that are debatable.

So disproving the lab-made virus theory is kind of like proving God doesn't exist. You can't prove a negative.

So we look at all the other information that is available.

- When the genetic sequences were first released, someone did an analysis and decided that the novel coronavirus was an assembly from SARS & HIV. They had the genetic proof, and spread it everywhere. The internet near-completely agreed it was man made, but a second paper came out about a week later, showing that the first group made a mistake and the new work proved conclusively that there were no HIV genes in the novel coronavirus. They also characterized the S-spike on the virus and the gene involved, and realized that it wasn't quite as efficient as the one on the original SARS virus. When they compared the genetic structures, looking for shared features & using the genetics variations in each strain as markers, they were able to group the viruses into "families", for lack of a better word. They noticed that for sure SARS-CoV-2 didn't come from, descend from, evolve from- however you want to say it-SARS1 wasn't the progenitor of this new virus.

This disproved the stories of the day, but the internet didn't want to give up the man made theory. I mean we have never been decimated by a corona virus before, so why now? Seems unlikely. Truth is we have been getting infected by corona viruses for a lot longer than anyone can say.

Most likely scenario is that this one learned how to be really contagious, and took off running in the population. If it were more like SARS, we'd be fucked- because SARS killed about 10% of the people it infected, this seems to kill about 1% or less- we don't really know because we don't know how many people in the population get infected without showing symptoms.

Anyway on topic- how do we know it wasn't created in a lab? We can't say for sure, because there is no way to ever know. But what we do know- this (now) group of relatively slowly mutating viruses are very, very closely genetically related to other virus we have seen before. 97% identical. Now some say, yeah but that the same difference between humans & chimps- but corona viruses have much smaller genomes- 29,800 nucleotides long. 97% identity is less that 800 RNA letter changes, and watching how fast this thing changes genetically (again, relatively slowly, but calculable), it is definitely realistic that one of the previous Corona viruses we have seen, or a closely related family member, mutated into the one currently on world tour.

Happy to discuss any specific point you have otherwise Gaius... like I said it's a complex subject, and lots of different aspects to it. I can only rely on the science to lead the way for me.

Lots of weird stuff like China wanting to put a stop to study of the viruses origin, but again I think that is explainable by the actions of authoritarian regime. At best they get the truth and prove the chain of transmission from an animal source (now impossible), but the cost in terms of disinformation festering is incalculable. The longer it goes on, at a certain point they are guilty even if they prove they are innocent.

In Iran they are having this exact same conversation right now. But China isn't the bad guy, in their version it's the US labs that created & released it. Same story, totally different 'facts' & narrative.

People always looking to create a boogie-man.

But sometimes, it's just Mother Nature doing what she does.

thats very interesting and just about understandable. also have heard Iran and China accusing the US, in the end the lab in wuhan was partly financed by Fauci. Trump would be happy to pass the buck, in the end even if they didnt release it from a weapons lab, they told the who it was not human to human transmissable when it clearly was

i don't mind going down a rabbit hole thats true, but it's not agenda driven on my part. i do believe you have a better understanding of the subject so happy to accept what you say, as far as you went anyway. you also don't know 100% if i understood you right?

it is a strange coincidence that the bat corona was being studied at the lab in wuhan, but i admit a coincidendce isn't proof. but what makes you say we will never know? that would be terrible leaving doubt in the air about how it all started indefinetly.

 

[h.h.]

Is there even proof that it originated in China?

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

- I'd check to see if the Chinese trade-marked it yet - and claim it as their own virus - so that only they can sell the vaccine -

- stranger things - etc

Is there even proof that it originated in China?

 

[Roms]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=a1KKo_lPJxA&feature=emb_title


Simply the NWO and Rockfeller, Gates and co's project for the humanity.

Resist broz

The true golen age for next, the consciousness and love revolution for now!
Peace

 

[NEW ENGLAND]

- I'd check to see if the Chinese trade-marked it yet - and claim it as their own virus - so that only they can sell the vaccine -

- stranger things - etc

Seems they are half way there , positive test results come with a fortune cookie

 

[Chimera]

thats very interesting and just about understandable. also have heard Iran and China accusing the US, in the end the lab in wuhan was partly financed by Fauci.

Careful with claims like above.

Fauci didn't fund the lab in Wuhan, he backed the funding in his role as director of NIAID. It's in US and global interests to study potential threats like corona viruses, which is why we investigate them and try to learn how they infect us and are transmitted, so that we are better prepared to deal with them if such a situation should arise. It has, and we are fortunate to have spent money funding CoV research, because now we have an education base to work from.

Trump would be happy to pass the buck, in the end even if they didnt release it from a weapons lab, they told the who it was not human to human transmissable when it clearly was

China has certainly acted inappropriately at times during the outbreak when nCoV was isolated to China; see Li Wenliang, the Dr who tried to warn others about a flu of unknown origin circulating in a Wuhan hospital. They punished him for spreading rumours (truths), but in my opinion this is a result of an overly aggressive authoritarian Chinese censor, not the result of a coordinated attempt to increase the spread of the disease by withholding the truth. Yes, the net result is the same, but there's an expression that fits well here- one shouldn't attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. I see it all as a morbid consequence of a series of errors in the handling of the virus, that led to massive consequences. It happened in the US too, had it been taken more seriously early on, better control might have been possible.

it is a strange coincidence that the bat corona was being studied at the lab in wuhan, but i admit a coincidendce isn't proof. but what makes you say we will never know? that would be terrible leaving doubt in the air about how it all started indefinetly.

I don't think we'll ever know because we will never get access to every sample in the lab, and be able to sequence them all and show 100% conclusively that this virus didn't come from their genetic stock. Even if we somehow could get all that data, the doubters would just say "well the government obviously destroyed the samples"

Remember there are 1000's of predicted corona viruses. We have studied dozens and collected maybe hundreds (see Shi Zengli). A drop in the bucket of the genetic diversity of what exists in nature. That we don't know the exact relative this virus evolved from is only a sign of our ignorance and evidence of the holes in our sampling of these viruses from nature. We do know her closest relatives though, which is a testament to Shi Zengli's efforts to understand the viruses. She's spent more than 15 years since SARS trying to understand the genetic diversity of these viruses so humanity can truly understand their threat. It's no coincidence that the location of the zoonotic outbreak is near the lab- why? Both the lab & the outbreak are in quite close proximity to where the natural reservoirs for these viruses exist in nature.

I agree with you- the more access we have to truth and knowledge is always better. Shutting down inquiry on the virus' origins is not helpful, but to be expected from an authoritarian regime, and again- not evidence of lab/ man-made origins. Suspicious & puzzling behaviour, yes. Despicable, yes. Evidence of human creation of the virus? Absolutely not.

 

[Roms]

All is orchestred and planned by parallel governements, USA, China, Europe etc... Very complicated maelstrom...

And Macron and France as antichrist for now but the revolution will come next year probably. Let's spread the peace as much as possible because they want a civil war!

 

[h.h.]

- I'd check to see if the Chinese trade-marked it yet - and claim it as their own virus - so that only they can sell the vaccine -

- stranger things - etc

It’s the old “who smelt it, dealt it” philosophy.

We don’t know if it came from a lab, or a bat, or a plane flying into China. It may well have been imported into a vulnerable population and given the opportunity to mutate. It could be mutating here.

 

[Chimera]

We don’t know if it came from a lab, or a bat, or a plane flying into China.

In effect, that's true, and anyone that says they know 100% either way is not being honest

But we do know for a fact that the nCoV sequenced in China in early January was 97% identical to a naturally occurring relative present in local bat populations.

See Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is most likely the correct explantation.

Given the lack of any evidence that this virus came from a lab, and the improbability of an extremely closely related virus arriving in China from offshore, the natural evolution from a reservoir of corona viruses (known to exist in the local environment) is the most logical explanation.

It's a clean, logical, evidenced based conclusion. Until I see any shred of credible evidence that points in another direction, I'm going with this one.

You guys do you.

 

[h.h.]

In effect, that's true, and anyone that says they know 100% either way is not being honest

But we do know for a fact that the nCoV sequenced in China in early January was 97% identical to a naturally occurring relative present in local bat populations.

See Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is most likely the correct explantation.

Given the lack of any evidence that this virus came from a lab, and the improbability of an extremely closely related virus arriving in China from offshore, the natural evolution from a reservoir of corona viruses (known to exist in the local environment) is the most logical explanation.

It's a clean, logical, evidenced based conclusion. Until I see any shred of credible evidence that points in another direction, I'm going with this one.

You guys do you.

Good answer.

I’m not trying promote any wild ideas here. Simply trying to expand the question. Saying we don’t know, what we don’t know. Maybe the bats acquired it from humans? Like rats in the city. After millions of years, all of a sudden we have these new viruses? I lay odds they’ve been here. Deaths attributed to the flu.

Globalism and perhaps climate change speeding up the evolutionary process.

 

[Chimera]

*Tinfoil alert*

Link below:

https://nextstrain.org/ncov/north-a...in=2019-12-26&l=clock&m=div&p=full&r=division

I set the data inclusion window from Christmas 2019 to March 20th, 2020 - the day the US & Canada announced they were shutting the border.

Here is a view of the US infection rate as per nextstrain.org who compile genetic sequences of NCoV genomes, kinda like Phylos did. As a new group isolates and sequences a strain from a patient in a given area, the data is made public and this website compiles it.

As the strain moved from person to person and group to group, over time it accumulates small genetic changes. Every subsequent offspring of the virus, will bear the genetic changes inherited from the parent. Any genetic changes occurring to her genome during the reproductive cycle, get passed down to further 'offspring', for lack of a better word.

What this means is that you can track the "evolution" or mutation rate of a strain and use the newly seen mutated version of a marker as a time stamp.

For example, you can see in the link----> Open window see map view & click play button top left of map


The first introductions into the US appear yellow. But as time goes by you can see that the majority of infections appear blue. Why?

This is a slightly different genotype that mutated in transit from China --> Europe ---> USA. It's the same "strain"; the new derived from the old through a random mutation in the genetic material (RNA in this case) of the virus. There is no evidence that the "new" version is any more potent or infection or dangerous*. (*In fact on the website you an track to see what genetic changes are taking place and how that impacts downstream gene & protein function)

Point is- if you look at how the US was 'colonized' by the virus, you can see that Trump halting flights from China to the US actually had an impact. The problem was, they left the backdoor completely open, so the virus decided to have a European vacation before coming to the US, and invaded from the east coast rather than the west. This is all traceable through nextstrain.org

 

[h.h.]

Occam’s razor...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

 

[Chimera]

Good answer.

I’m not trying promote any wild ideas here. Simply trying to expand the question. Saying we don’t know, what we don’t know. Maybe the bats acquired it from humans? Like rats in the city. After millions of years, all of a sudden we have these new viruses? I lay odds they’ve been here. Deaths attributed to the flu.

Globalism and perhaps climate change speeding up the evolutionary process.

I'm with you man, very important to clearly separate fact from fiction. It's not easy these days with corporate & social media, politcal agendas, etc... compounded with a complex subject its a hairball for most to untangle.

Unlikely we are passing CoV to bats. They host the vast genetic diversity, which means they likely (one of) the natural CoV reservoirs.

If you look into corona viruses, and even look at the antibodies of the peoples that live in close proximity to the bat populations I refer to above, we can see conclusively that humans have been infected by corona viruses before. That's fact. You're right, if anything the people might have interpreted it as a mild flu, or a cold.

Let's not forget, in many people, this is just like a common flu or a cold. But in some subset of the population, and we don't understand who or why, but this subset of the population gets devastated by this nCoV.

 

[h.h.]

They only recently developed the test. Tracing only goes back to December 19’. Pre-mutation, if there were only minor ailments, there was no reason to test or trace.

You can keep your tin foil.

 

[RudeDog]

Hey Chimera, could a virus mutate to become not as potent or even mutate itself out of existence?

 

[Chimera]

They only recently developed the test. Tracing only goes back to December 19’. Pre-mutation, if there were only minor ailments, there was no reason to test or trace.

You can keep your tin foil.

That's simply not true.

The genetic PCR test for the gene sequence unique to nCoV goes back to January 2020, it was designed within 2 days of the nCoV genome being sequenced (~Jan 12th if memory serves).

Antibody tests directed at other corona viruses have been available for many years. Most corona viruses have shared genetic/ protein components & humans develop antibodies directed against those viruses. These anti-bodies are a signature left on our immune systems as a result of a previous exposure to the virus.

The point I was making, was that previous corona viruses have infected humans. It's not like this thing just learned how to play with humans recently, it's just that it's been hanging around in another host (bats/civets/pangolin?).

We only started noticing this new virus when people started developing severe pneumonia as a result of exposure. Genetically similar to other viruses that have interacted with homo sapiens previously, but the new phenotype (severe pneumonia) made us notice. That's most likely a new mutation & a recent introduction to humans, one we hadn't encountered before.