why not breed with fem'd seed?

[guest123]

Doc,

lol, I can't/won't allow newbs to believe that we are talking about genetically modified crops here, for we certainly are NOT - scare tactics Doc? I surely hope that is not your thing.

But finally we agree on something, and I will vigorously defend that line in the sand alongside you. GMO's are not a good thing.

What's being discussed here are not my theories, and while these techniques may be new to you and the majority of the community (and are indeed often abused by seed-hacks), they have been used, tested, and well proven -with cannabis- for decades.

Yes, hybrids of outcrossing plants -where complex genotypes and heterosis can be thoroughly exploited- grow better.

BTW, I applaud the efforts of your food stock seed collective, noble efforts to be sure - and you can quote me on that. -C

 

[DocLeaf]

edited intor: Yo,, i n i respect all and everyone's opinions equally dude,, really no offense,, tally wise your the only newbie in here dude,, but like i say we all here to learn... and we certainly learnt as much from newbies as we have OGs over the years,, this is wat brings us back,, the pursuit of knowledge about ganja

Doc,

lol, I can't/won't allow newbs to believe that we are talking about genetically modified crops here, for we certainly are NOT - scare tactics Doc? I certainly hope that is not your thing.

But finally we agree on something, and I will vigorously defend that line in the sand alongside you - GMO's are not a good thing.

What's being discussed here are not my theories, they may be new to you and the majority of the community, but they have been used, tested, and well proven -with cannabis- for decades.

Yes, hybrids of outcrossing plants -where complex genotypes and heterosis can be thoroughly exploited- grow better.

BTW, I applaud the efforts of your food stock seed collective, noble efforts to be sure - and you can quote me on that. -C

OK. perhaps not GM in the spartan sense,, but female clones subjected to chemicals are phenotypically modified (stressed) to inhibit one side of their sexuality - which ultimately predicts the sexuality of the progeny and yet unanswered questions in future lineage.

Fem. seed companies (based in Europe) already sell a strain that is crossed with a GM variety of cannabis! Sadly this is the trend that some seed co.s are setting. Meaning that future seedlines may easily fall into modified lines,, either knowingly or unknowingly via clones!

Moreover international bodies like codex alimentarius wish to standardise ALL seed stocks ,, categorize them on a list,, give them a catalogue number (###) ,, and forbid anyone without pre-paid royalties from sowing them out (just like they did with the Hemp Industry kids) ! Offering fem. lines is the best way for them to do this. Just like the BS fem. cucmbers we did a few years back,, same flex!

Cannafriend : did you ever see GM dope grow,, seed the land,, then die-out on the
3rd season ?


To us ALL the above seems more interested in tampering with nature and making $$$ ,, than selecting from what nature has to offer us already and sharing it with others. This is obviously my own personal opinion on the subject,, not yours :wink:

Note: Circulating organic seed lines (from naturally occurring flowers),, for FREE,, is the one of the best way to counter Codex ,, the clocks ticking!! Jah bless ppl like Gypsy and all the heirloom plot growers out there that are already on the case

 

[Raco]

Fem seeds are being forced down customers throats...

 

[DocLeaf]

OK why not lets name the shameful them here ,, they deserve all they get!!!

Company :W-o-S
Their seed : Afgan Kush Special feminized :
Their spiel : ' Stable male hybrid: Pollen obtained from plants Genetically Modified. Male is obtained from a determinated quantity of plants growing with mitothic inhibitor that give polysomic plants.''

Someone should spray a bottle of Paraquat (weed-killer) ALL over their gardens,, f-ing morons!!! Get em out here,, i n i will diss them down like you lot have never seen b4.. lol

Seriously get them out here,, lets see what they got to say for themselves,, we'll merk them back to the ground they came from!

Peace n Flowers

 

[Raco]

3 words:
World Of SHIT

very lame

 

[DocLeaf]

Next thing we know,, growers will be growing these GMs as clones,, no doubt with a new name like "GeM Kush",, lmfao Some growers will cross these GMs with normal plants and future lines will be really screwed up !!!

Guess we can all play "guess the natural cannabis flower" after that

 

[Raco]

Jah bless ppl like Gypsy and all the heirloom plot growers out there that are already on the case

AMEN

 

[VanXant]

Oh the ignorance!!

"The majority of fem. lines available produce male/abnormal flowers and little in the way of vigor "

>>>>This is a symptom of gene pool inbreeding and ignorance among seedmakers. This is NOT only a symptom of feminized cannabis, its a symptom of ALL drug cannabis, including MALE cannabis!
The inbreeding is caused by all of the amateurs in the world over-hybridizing the genepool. Apparently they all think there are no consequences to their very poor breeding approach. Now plants that once had genetic distance between, are related. This was not due to anything but ignorance, carelessness and fukn greed on the parts of seed dealers and newbie pot growers who buy the seeds -then make their own seedlots from small populations,...and the cycle is repeated over and over.

This is not sustainable.

Feminized seeds are no different than M/F bred seeds. People who worry about the future intersexual behaviors of feminized seeds simply do not understand and have unnecessary fears. Stop crying foul when you have no evidence that DIRECTLY implicates feminization.
If anything, feminization assists modern breeders to locate improved plants.(female plants have all the traits we seek easily visible, males have almost NONE) Since the typical amateur only make one cross anyway, how do you think the POOR MALES they use are fitting into the scheme of seedline improvements today? They are NOT helping.
Feminized seeds are popular because we dont use male plants for anything but pollen donations for making more seeds, and even that is not completely necessary now.

Genetically modified plants huh??(WoS) The mitotic inhibitor is probably colchicine(there are others of course) and is NOT genetic modification in the sense you think. jesuschrist. Do you know what they mean when they talk about GM crops? Colchicine is a conventional breeding practice, not GM.

It looks like cannafriend knows whats real and whats bullshit. LIAS,kopite and Verdant also..thank you for being here to turn the machine of disinformation around.

p.s. Gypsy,et.al. facilitated the erosion of the genepool and once-pure land races. Doc, what happens when you use colchicine on breeder plants (and are successful), then breed those offspring back to typical cannabis plants? Who exactly are you "mentoring" these days?

 

[DocLeaf]

Oh the ignorance!!

p.s. Gypsy,et.al. facilitated the erosion of the genepool and once-pure land races. Doc, what happens when you use colchicine on breeder plants (and are successful), then breed those offspring back to typical cannabis plants? Who exactly are you "mentoring" these days?

Not you...

Whose being ignorant? Gypsy just donated landrace Mazar IBL to the community..
guessing you dont really know what's happening here :wink:

Anyhow...

Go do your research,, if all WOS lines were ALL from GM stock,, then they'd probably say so on the packet. As it stands only x2 of their strains in the 'Legend' line are from GM stock:

New York Special -

Sex: Female: PureNew York Diesel
Stabilized male hybrid: pollen obteined from plants genetically modificated.Male is obtained from a determinated quantity of plants growth with a mitothic inhibitor that give us polysomic plants. This mutant hybrids has been selected and classified with the best properties in order to obtein a new potential genetic in a new cross

Afgan Kush Special -

Sex: Female: Pure Afgan Kush
Stabilized male hybrid:
POLLEN OBTEINED FROM PLANTS GENETICALLY MODIFICATED.Male is obtained from a determinated quantity of plants growth with a mitothic inhibitor that give us polysomic plants. This mutant hybrids has been selected and classified with the best properties in order to obtein a new potential genetic in a new cross

Do your homework!!

 

[love?]

Great thread. I especially like how it started out by someone asking the subject to be explained like they were 5 years old. Not really what they got...

It would seem like there's no known particular reason why not to breed with feminized seed. But we need to keep in mind that that isn't the same thing as it being certain that there won't be problems down the line. So some kind of precautions certainly seem like a good idea if you do breed with them.

Also it's interesting to note that experienced and respected breeders like Shantibaba (and I think even Sam?) have expressed views that would seem to advocate not using feminized plants in breeding programs. I don't think we should totally dismiss their experience even if no particular "proof" can be shown... Then again it wouldn't be the first time new science has proved old experts wrong, that's the way life goes.

Good thing I'm just into growing for seed instead of "breeding" (at least right now) and don't have to worry about stuff like this.

That WoS GM pollen sounds interesting. Wonder what the story is.

 

[DocLeaf]

Nice rational post love

 

[Clovenhoof]

Hi all, I now try to answer some questions. It may happen that I do wrongly understand the quotes - if so, please be kind and tell me.

in some ways i would be grateful for someone to give me a detailed and coherant argument as to why using fem plants to breed with is bad practice - when i read that it's not a good idea i was ready to accept that and went out to find out exactly why its bad in a genetic sense.

Ok, here we go. First, we have to clear up what is meant by the term "breeding". I for one understand breeding as creating a new cultivar by narrowing the exisiting genepool down and therefore stabilising some - hopefully positive - traits. In a very short way, you always choose the best male and female and cross them together. Best means those plants that come closest to our desired traits. Ok, now the selfing comes into play. If we choose a female that exhibits intersexual traits for breeding, then we inevitably select for this intersexual traits, because we use them while narrowing the genepool down. The likelihood of plants exhibiting intersexual traits will start to increase. But we always want to select towards positive traits and that is why breeding with fem'd seeds is bad - it rockets our goal.

like rick says stress testing is good, but small selection breeding methods (like <30 plants) always bottle neck genetics when compared with the lucky bastards crazy enough to do large 100-1000 plant selection grows, that produce seeds that will be carrying the widest possible gene pool.

You always bottleneck genetics when breeding. This is the only way to create stability regarding your selected traits. Selection vs Variation, those two are counterplayers. The numbers you mention have less to do with selection. High numbers mean high variation and therefore a good place to select. In other words: with high numbers you can apply a high selection pressure (that means you have many traits in mind you wish to integrate into the new cultivar) without having to worry of weeding out the whole crop.

as far as i know, this is one of the pieces of misinformation that gets passed around. as soon as you introduce a regular male in your breeding program and pollinate a femmed female, then you have your chromosome back and all the offspring are regular male and female.

Short input: only in 50% you've got your Y back. If the male spreads his X, you won't have the Y in your seedline and it remains an XX-line. Sounds logical, eh? ;-)

Not once have I seen any sort of scientific explanation to back up the fears of femmed seeds. Save for maybe the genetic problems that can occur from a direct true selfing (forced plant pollinates itself). If the same forced plant pollinates a different pheno of the same girl, it is still an S1, but there aren't any scientific scenarios, that I have seen offered, to show any problems at all from that progeny. The only outcome from that pollination is the lack of the male chromosome.

Look at my first quote's answer for this. You select for intersexual genes, which is bad. And you loose your males, so either you have to reintroduce them via backcrossing or you breed forth with fem's only, which exacerbates the hermi-problem.

If we stress a plant to create male flowers using the light stress method, then we are destined to fail, if we are indeed trying to breed away from the hermie trait. If a female plant is true breeding for the non-hermie trait, then no amount of light stress is going to make it stress flower in the first place. It requires a chemical forcing or an extra long ripening period to produce male flowers. And the progeny of that true breeding, forced female, will also be hermie free...providing the other parent is also a true breeder for that trait.

If a female exhibits male flowers, isn't it a hermie? I don't really know if different methods for stressing result in different conclusions, but from my limited understanding it does not. But that's just speculating, because I lack the needed knowledge to judge this.

in laymans lingo,, fem. lines dont give pollen,, unless they herm!

this is no reason not to use fem.s as parents for seeds to grow and smoke

This is one hell of a nice quote. It says it all ;-).

but imo ,manipulating hormones to change expreshion, is different from hermi expreshion

How do you come to this conclusion? Don't get me wrong, I won't say this is bullshit. But did you think of where the "normal" hermi expression comes from? Maybe as well from a changed hormone level? Dunno...

Feminized seeds are no different than M/F bred seeds. People who worry about the future intersexual behaviors of feminized seeds simply do not understand and have unnecessary fears. Stop crying foul when you have no evidence that DIRECTLY implicates feminization.

Fem'd seeds are no different, that's true. The difference lays in the limited genepool, so the fem'd seeds cannot grow to male plants and they are selected for intersex-genes. From a grower's point of view it does not matter much, because hermies probably won't show up in the first generations as a problem. But from a breeder's point of view you should not establish female seedlines. There surely are some advantages using selfed beans, but you always have to ask yourself: what is my goal? And how can I achieve this? Keep the whole issue in mind.

Regards, Clvnhf.

 

[McSnappler]

Great discussion guys, loving the reading. A bit of SamS knowledge for the thread..

If you STS a TRUE FEMALE you do not get any intersexed progeny, I know because I did it.

My own work showed me that if you can not stress a female to change sex with enviornmental stress then after STS it will not express intersexed plants, altho to be sure maybe progeny testing is required like STS for selfing females, males are more work.

People that think that males contribute nothing to females are not correct at all.
A cross between a hemp male and a skunk #1 will be halfway between the Skunk and the hemp in potency, as well as the smells from the terpenoids will express both parents. This is for sure. I could find little differences if the hemp male or female was used or if the Skunk #1 male or female was used the F1 hemp/Skunk#1 or the Skunk#1/hemp were virtually the same.
I have no proof but I do suspect that males well may carry genetic info not carried by females, if this is true then maybe these genes will be lost in all female lines that are not using males at all. Lets hope not.
I have never seen males from an STS transformed true female pollen source that was used to pollinate a true female, and in the last 10+ years I have done hundreds of STS females and grown out the progeny, numbering in the thousands.
If you STS a hermi female you get all kinds of intersexed progeny.
Stress test your females or STS self them and grow out the progeny, any intersexed plants? Then the female was not a true female in the first place, and should not be used to make seeds.

I have received several requests to explain how to tell a TRUE FEMALE.
I suggested trying to make a female clone to express male flowers will show it is not a TRUE FEMALE.

Photoperiod disorders. Light leaks.
Photoperiod shock from 20 hours light to 8 and back up to 20.
Lumins disorders, too high or too low of lumins.
Too Hot or Cold.
Too Wet or Dry, air or soil.
Nutrients out of wack, to much or to little.
Pruning shock, plant or roots.
Transplant shock.
Insect shock.
Disease shock.
Self one plant with STS, grow out the progeny, stress test for intersexed flowers. (this also often shows intersexed plants without any stress)

LOL @ the first poster asking for it to be explained like they are a 5 year old, I missed that completely on the first few reads!

 

[guest123]

"Doc, what happens when you use colchicine on breeder plants (and are successful), then breed those offspring back to typical cannabis plants?"

VanXant,

The resulting offspring are sterile? And therefore no threat to the gene pool and in sharp contrast with true GM crops where something new has actually been introduced to be spread around? And therefore Doc can put away his tin foil hat for the time being? I am unsure, but I do know that this happens in nature as does the selfing of cannabis and is therefore ridiculous to be likening these to GM.

WoS is probably full of crap anyway.




Folks keep saying that some type of precaution should probably be taken when selfing etc, but continually fail to mention that this statement is doubly true with regular M/F breeding.

Sam is not against selfing, and has done as much of it as anybody. Shanti certainly is, but to date has not put together any convincing scientific reasons for it that I have seen.




"If we choose a female that exhibits intersexual traits for breeding, then we inevitably select for this intersexual traits, because we use them while narrowing the genepool down. The likelihood of plants exhibiting intersexual traits will start to increase. But we always want to select towards positive traits and that is why breeding with fem'd seeds is bad - it rockets our goal."

Clovenhoof,

Maybe need to start looking at this from the aspect of judging on a curve. Just how much environmental influence is required to flip/trigger the expression of intersexed traits in the plant? Extreme amounts? OK then, let's keep that parameter in focus throughout selections and the progeny down the line will require the same. Nothing is inevitable with this, no more than it is with M/F breeding. In fact, the breeder that uses selfing is much more likely to thoroughly test for this, while the M/F breeder often assumes, and bypasses altogether looking into what intersexed traits the male may be passing on.




I've seen lots of breeders poddy-mouth this from their pedestals of ignorance. Yet, there are those hermies, all up in their lines good and plenty - with the absolute minimum of environmental trigger required for the expression of them, pfft.

 

[VanXant]

DocLeaf your response was hilarious thanks!

So you think because the hack seed company used the words "Genetically modificated" that they are truly doing "GM" work on cannabis? Do you even know what GM work IS that youre so concerned about? I really dont think so. And I dont think WoS knows that they are NOT doing GM work either...
This was equally cherishing.. "Whose being ignorant? Gypsy just donated landrace Mazar IBL to the community....guessing you dont really know what's happening here "

LMFAO!!!!!!! priceless...thankyou. So whattaya suppose will come from the community by doing that Doc? lots of genetically viable "strains"?..or maybe just more over-hybridization and a complete fragmentation of the Mazar seedlot?

RE: Skunkmans posts

Sam has found no tangible reason to NOT employ feminization on cannabis. He certainly uses it, doesnt he? He uses STS(feminization) for research and development, and he certainly employed selfing via feminization. He claims to having "done hundreds of STS females and grown out the progeny, numbering in the thousands." Sam likes feminization.

ONE TIME he SPECULATED that there COULD BE genes in males that are lost in feminization, but never elaborates on how that could happen. lol. And rightfully so: it doesnt make any sense to people that have witnessed lots of cannabis sexuality.

Clovenhoof,et.al.,

Almost all,-if not ALL-, female cannabis plants can produce pollen. There appears to be a wide spectrum of phenotypic manifestations in cannabis sex. Sam Skunkman is the only person in the recorded world who has ever seen a cannabis plant that would not REVERSE and produce male flowers via chemical induction. Even he admits these plants are extremely RARE.
Since cannabis sexual genotype is a complex interplay of major genes on sex chromosomes(X/Y), minor genes on autosomes, I think it is possible to recover a rare genotype of little to NO intersex alleles. That makes sense to me, when I put forth an educated guess. But that does not mean the only plants we should ever use are the extremely endangered "true female" plants. right...

Employing feminized plants in a breeding program is only "selection for" intersex phenotypes when overtly intersexual phenotypes are selected. When plants have been properly tested and shown to have LOW or VERY LOW intersexual tendencies under cultivation, then this could be considered "selection AGAINST" intersexuality. right? This is all decided by the breeder..(but look who is doing all the breeding today.) Are we surprised at what we have, and why there is so much speculation and mystery??

Now,.. MALE/FEMALE matings do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING toward reducing the possibility of intersexual offspring. How could they??? In fact, forEVER, cannabis breeders have failed to test their prospective breeder parents -MALE AND FEMALE- and thus, we see plenty of intersex plants in the gene pool. Did you catch that?? We have intersexed plants from CONVENTIONAL M/F matings! BUT that is not the reason... Modern breeders who FEAR feminized matings are certainly not testing their conventionally-produced female plants for intersexualities. That would have to be done by stress-testing under cultivation, or by testcrosses/progeny tests.
There is simply NO DIFFERENCE IN THE GENOTYPES OF THE OFFSPRING of plants induced by chemicals to produce pollen and those which are not. And there is NO PREDISPOSTION of resulting intersex offspring by employing feminization.

The only way to reduce intersexed plants is to do the required TESTS, and only use those plants that resist producing an intersexual phenotype under typical cultivation scenarios.

Baseless fears of the process of feminization is ignorance.

p.s. cannafriend..haha..you got it..I hope Doc comprehended.

 

[Raco]

i have been watching this scene since overgrow back in the day. i know that both shantibaba and dj have had breeding projects in switzerland, for example. at huge facilities, selecting over 1000's of plants. as have many other top breeders.

the so-called Haze C male selected over 1,000´s of plants?? lol
A single male(out of 2..the Haze A male gone),and his genes are ubiquitous

 

[VanXant]

This is a curious statement by the Almighty Himself:"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
If you STS a TRUE FEMALE you do not get any intersexed progeny, I know because I did it."

>>>When I released my product 'eliteXelite hybridization tool' -the spray that changed feminization of cannabis, SamSkunkman used to post vigorously on my threads that there were "true females" and that he had "proven" it by discovering a "true female" plant that CANNOT BE REVERSED(does not produce male flowers at all), by ANY METHOD, even with STS. I think he was so bold as to say hes found more than one...
So how did he acquire pollen from a "true female" if a "true female" will not even produce male flowers, let alone viable pollen? Maybe he will come on here and tell us he had long-ago discovered a "true male", and used that??? I wouldnt doubt it.

 

[DocLeaf]

Do you even know what GM work IS that youre so concerned about? I really dont think so.

Sure we grew seeds from GM Hemp.. (photo in old gallery somewhere). The seeds were non-viable after the 3rd season in several locations. Otherwise the original fields the seeds came from would still be over-run with hemp now. Like they did in year 2. lol Anyhow,., you've got a bad attitude dude.. pls loose it! This is an old debate after all :wink:

Good stuff cloven-hoof

 

[DocLeaf]

"Doc, what happens when you use colchicine on breeder plants (and are successful), then breed those offspring back to typical cannabis plants?".

They worked well (as we originally said) see Marbled White image.. she's a fine fem. x regular strain,, (wish we had more seeds left)

 

[VerdantGreen]

Ok, here we go. First, we have to clear up what is meant by the term "breeding". I for one understand breeding as creating a new cultivar by narrowing the exisiting genepool down and therefore stabilising some - hopefully positive - traits. In a very short way, you always choose the best male and female and cross them together. Best means those plants that come closest to our desired traits. Ok, now the selfing comes into play. If we choose a female that exhibits intersexual traits for breeding, then we inevitably select for this intersexual traits, because we use them while narrowing the genepool down. The likelihood of plants exhibiting intersexual traits will start to increase. But we always want to select towards positive traits and that is why breeding with fem'd seeds is bad - it rockets our goal.

hi Clovenhoof, first of all i should say that i am a complete novice to seed making - just making a few crosses to try out and back up genetics etc. I would like to get as big a seed collection as possible. Being a professional (regular) gardener and having a decent stab at self sufficiency for my family i am fully aware of the value of experience and will always take notice of what the experts say - but i need to understand it too.
your statement above seems to base itself upon the fact that femmed seeds are more likely to create herms, but if the femmed mum selected is not a herm then surely we would not necessarily be increasing the likelihood of intersexed traits?
and in my particular dilemna, my non-herm femmed blueberry mum is obviously from a strain that does have a lot of problems with herms that comes with the genetics - how valuable do i regard that to be? (as well as it ticking many other boxes)

Short input: only in 50% you've got your Y back. If the male spreads his X, you won't have the Y in your seedline and it remains an XX-line. Sounds logical, eh? ;-)

do you mean

S1 x 'male' = XX x XY ---> 50% XX; 50% XY

which is basically the same as breeding a regular female to a male.

---

snap - thanks for the sam quotes - i was interested to see that over-ripening wasnt on the list of ways to check you have a true female. from my (limited) experience most females will throw a couple of male flowers if you flower them for long enough

---

this is a great discussion - please lets keep it that way - im sure none of us would want to damage the mj gene pool - i have every respect for those who are keeping the ibl's and landrace genetics preserved, just as i have respect for those that are tryong to breed better varieties.

as for the commercial breeders viewpoints, its seems to me that the ones that make only regular seeds think that fems are rubbish, and the ones that make fem seeds think they are great - no surprises there then - but i'm sure that most seed companies have a true passion for the herb, i cant see people succeeding for very long if they are just in it for the money.

V.