why not breed with fem'd seed?

[DocLeaf]

RE: Using fem. lines for breeding

Marbled White

aka White Pearl (fem.) x Sensi Star [2005]

These plants grew just fine ,, but we wouldn't use them for future breeding projects.

Hope this helps

 

[guest123]

but we wouldn't use them for future breeding projects.

Is that because the plant was bred from gynoecious selections, or because the plant is utterly lacking in regards to desirable traits? If the former, please explain.

 

[DocLeaf]

Because ,, the line may hold unwanted recessive genetics as a result of the feminized parent and we like working with regular male and female stock.

 

[guest123]

Because ,, the line may hold unwanted recessive genetics as a result of the feminized parent and we like working with regular male and female stock.

Can you all explain how you came to the idea that the "feminized" parent in anyway could possibly result in "unwanted recessive genetics" above and beyond a male selection? Or, are you saying that you happen to know that this particular female used in the cross is masking deleterious recessives? If so, what did that have to do with the mode of breeding. I'm hoping for even the slightest bit of science here Doc, can you provide us with any at all?

 

[DocLeaf]

Sure,, my buddy Growdoc helped test viability and stability over feminized seed lines in Holland many many moons back,, he wasn't that impressed with the results he got from them

Back in 2005 when we used White Pearl in the Marbled White cross, feminized seed lines were renowned for throwing out bananas (weak male flowers) and selfed seeds during the final stages of flowering ,, and so they were genetically weak for a dioecious species.

No breeder in their right mind would wish to perpetuate such problems in lineage for future growers to inherit further down the line!

Today feminized breeders use different methods to produce feminized seeds... and perhaps these are more stable in lineage than the fem. lines of yester-year.

I n I still help test some fem. varieties for pro breeders,, but am not yet convinced that the genetics they put out are suitable for breeding beyond the first initial cross,, which may or may not give stable female lineage (without male flowers and selfed seeds) depending on ancestry.

Feminized seeds are the cheapest seeds available !

Hope this helps

 

[guest123]

The problems you describe are outcomes of poor selection Doc, and nothing else. Indeed, nobody in their right mind should continue to perpetuate poor selections. Nor should anybody in their right mind blame poor selections on anything else. Spreading false conclusions around is also quite damaging to future growers. "he wasn't that impressed with the results he got from them" is not quite was I was hoping for in regards to science, but is pretty much what I've come to expect.

 

[DocLeaf]

Please show us the fem. line you crossed ,, what was the outcome?

Btw.. our conclusions are based on reality!

 

[guest123]

Reality has eluded you, but touche Doc, soon enough

Here's the reality. Selfing promotes the efficiency of eliminating undesired recessives, not the other way around.

 

[englishrick]

hay peeps

how many people here have read Rob Allards stuff??????????

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Not once have I seen any sort of scientific explanation to back up the fears of femmed seeds. Save for maybe the genetic problems that can occur from a direct true selfing (forced plant pollinates itself). If the same forced plant pollinates a different pheno of the same girl, it is still an S1, but there aren't any scientific scenarios, that I have seen offered, to show any problems at all from that progeny. The only outcome from that pollination is the lack of the male chromosome.

Now, SamSkunkman has given out some pretty convincing theories about the male perhaps carrying some traits that are specific to the male of the species...but even he admits that his theories are just that.

Speculation...that is all that I have seen that backs up the dislike (or fear) of forced fem seeds.

And again, I back up the selection is everything camp.
If we stress a plant to create male flowers using the light stress method, then we are destined to fail, if we are indeed trying to breed away from the hermie trait. If a female plant is true breeding for the non-hermie trait, then no amount of light stress is going to make it stress flower in the first place. It requires a chemical forcing or an extra long ripening period to produce male flowers. And the progeny of that true breeding, forced female, will also be hermie free...providing the other parent is also a true breeder for that trait.
Exactly the same for regular seeds.
Anything that anyone could provide that was over and above speculation, I would love to read.

 

[englishrick]

im in the selection is everything camp......

 

[englishrick]

Principles of plant breeding,,,,,By Robert Wayne Allard,,,,book preview

http://books.google.com/books?id=74hdQoEc8XsC&pg=PP7&dq=robert+allard+botany

 

[DocLeaf]

Grapefruit [Female Seeds] was a really nice plant,, how come there isn't many crosses off that? Perhaps because the breeders couldn't guarantee their 'hybrids' weren't just S1 grapefruit!

It's possible to make nice lineage off fem. mothers ,, see my 1st post on this thread,, :wink:

The real question is do feminised seeds make 'true breeding' plant stock ?

The best fem. line we've tested so far was 'Northern Lights',, which was an IBL before they feminized it ... so perhaps lineage has something to do with it.

Today many breeders are open breeding fem. lines together,, so that they give progeny with mixed results/specimens from the same fem. pack.

Best bet is to meet up with the breeders were possible and discuss their methods with them.

Hope these 10bars help

 

[englishrick]

so perhaps lineage has something to do with it.

i think the selection is everything camp agrees......

 

[DocLeaf]

rick we each have our own opinions based on what we experience / observe

Northern Lights [Royal Queen Seeds] ,, which is feminized,, went 3 months without showing any preflowers,, until dropped into 12/12. Having flowered seeds and clones from the same siblings before now,, this fem. strain appears to be stable and did not produce any abnormal or hermaphroditic flowers in bloom.

As far as fem. seeds are concerned we need to be thinking long term! The next generation of growers will inherit what we leave them .. maybe better to be cautious now than regretful later,, once bitten twice shy and all that...

,,hence the apprehension amid growers to adopt feminized stock for breeding with... regardless of any "organic" or ethical debates attached!

Hope this helps

 

[guest123]

The real question is do feminised seeds make 'true breeding' plant stock ?

Selfing does, yes, (A) at a rate of almost 3 times that of full sib mating. This, (B) promoting efficiency of eliminating undesired recessives, and (C) the maintenance of male sterile lines are a few reasons breeders may utilize selfing during the breeding of outcrossing plants. Here is text that deals with (A), cut and pasted from R.W. Allard's book that Rick has mentioned, "Principles of Plant Breeding".

" the most useful measure of homozygosity is the inbreeding coefficient, F. This coefficient takes a value near zero in most large random-mating populations, and the coefficient increases toward unity under sustained genetic assortive mating. Self-fertilization (one individual in each generation in each family) leads to very rapid increases in homozygosity. Starting with a heterozygote (F=0.50), F takes the values 0.75, 0.875, 0.9375, 0.9688, 0.9844, 0.9922, ... in successive generations of selfing, thus exceeding 0.90 in the third generation. Under continued mating of 2 individuals per family (full sibs) each generation, F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the eighth generation. With continued mating of 4 individuals per family (double first cousins), F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the seventeenth generation and rates of increase in F with 8 individuals per family (quadruple second cousins) and 16 individuals per family (octuple third cousins) are much slower yet. The rate of increase in F is so slow with more than 16 mating individuals per family per generation that such matings are of essentially no consequence in concentrating favorable alleles in selection programs in outcrossing species. It is therefore not at all surprising that breeders of plant species nearly always choose schemes featuring very close inbreeding. Selfing schemes (one parent/generation) are by far the most common in breeding outcrossing plants, and the usual goal is to develop numerous highly homozygous lines that are first evaluated by top crossing to identify lines with good general combining ability, followed by testing specific combinations of pairs of lines to identify the very few pairs that have the potential to produce truly excellent single-cross hybrids. "

 

[hoosierdaddy]

,,hence the apprehension amid growers to adopt feminized stock for breeding with... regardless of any "organic" or ethical debates attached!

True, but it seems apparent that there is far less apprehension about using femmed seed stock for breeding in the professional breeding community. (shrug)
And perhaps it is the science, such as what was just presented, that backs up the lack of apprehension with those who look past speculation to form their opinions. Even first hand observations are anecdotal, and could have too many variables involved to make blanket statements that have any sort of consensus among the learned.

This whole debate smells just like the global warming debate.
"better safe than sorry" and all that rubbish....

 

[DocLeaf]

cannafriend - the words "expected" is like maybe or perhaps :wink:

my real point is that few ppl in the community have crossed then line bred or out crossed, back-shagged feminized seeds genetics (in cannabis) as YET,, so the possibilities over what happens in future generations are as yet unknown. It is a new branch of botany.

hoosierdaddy : most commercial fem. lines today come from reliable clones ,, originally bred together in NL. Those breeders aren't using fem. stock to make more fem. lines buddy,, they spray a cut with chemicals and introduce it to some other cuts,, easy,, and the cheapest way to make seeds IMO ,, cannabis or otherwise

 

[DocLeaf]

Sceptics (pls loose the negative vibes) see post #41 ,, The progeny was fat,, his hands are long ,, the smoke he wished he had more off.lol The seeds were weedy (only a few grew) , which could have been due to early harvesting. Otherwise,, lets dispel some myths,,

fem. seeds CAN usually be used for direct breeding,, but its NOT something most wish to perpetuate in lineage,, that's all we is saying

we are currently testing feminized auto-flowering strains.. lmfao (never thought we see the day),, inquisitiveness can make growers do strange things :wink:

btw,, i n i nah hating on cats using fem. seeds as mothers,, c'est la vie,, just pls do it mindfully ,, and tell the growers you share them with the lineage

peace n flowers all

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Sceptics (pls loose the negative vibes) ....


fem. seeds CAN usually be used for direct breeding,, but its NOT something most wish to perpetuate in lineage,, that's all we is saying

I certainly hope that my words aren't seen as negative or confrontational in any way, as they aren't meant to be.

What I would like to see is something of substance that would show me why I would not want to perpetuate a line from femmed seeds? And so far, I have seen nothing that scientifically backs up the con side, yet have seen lots of evidence of all forms that backs up the pro side.
What are your thoughts on why you would not want to perpetuate a line from femmed seeds? What would/could possibly be the problem, in laymans terms?