why not breed with fem'd seed?

[masterKahn]

I plan on procuring some fem seeds for mother plants then using the resulting clones for breeding with a very special male. The advantage is I can buy less seeds to find a good pheno. So I can buy more seeds then before say 5 feminised seeds of sensi star and 5 of BlueBerry instead of 10 blueberry where all might be male or hermi prone.

And I have had hermi mutant blueberry plants.

 

[jonkanoo]

in my future plans there is the will of crossing a eugoria dutch passion male whit some female plants (kushberry, laughingh buddha and kushberry) from feminized seeds, just to be totally independent, i don't want to buy seeds for the rest of my life. IMO it's a stupid thing that i have to spend 15-20 bucks for a seed... but after reading this topic i have to pospone my plans... or just grow the euforia and take F2... or give the crosses a try?

 

[VerdantGreen]

in some ways i would be grateful for someone to give me a detailed and coherant argument as to why using fem plants to breed with is bad practice - when i read that it's not a good idea i was ready to accept that and went out to find out exactly why its bad in a genetic sense. but all i really found was people saying it was bad and would lead to problems and dont do it. there seemed to be very little actual detailed information beyond that, and the couple of potentially convincing posts about why not didnt stand up to the scrutiny of someone who knew his genetics, what the argument against breeding with fems was saying was basically wrong.
so i am ready to be convinced not to do it but i need more than just someone saying dont do it because i say so - i need to know why. Im not an expert at all this but i would take the time to make sure i understood what was being said.

V.

 

[englishrick]

hay VG,,,,,

i for 1 am all for Fem seeds!...

your point about no1 being able to argue with Fem lines "for breeding" is very well put,,,i think the same as you,,,,

but still,,,i would like to try and argue against Fems for a min,,,



what do you guys know about angiosperms,,,,,??

 

[VerdantGreen]

angiosperms are just flowering plants as far as i know.

selfing has been used successfully as part of botany and horticulture for many years. the difference is that nearly all flowering plants have both male and female parts on the same plant. many angiosperms have a mechanism called self incompatibility that prevents the male parts of a flower fertilising the female parts of the same flower. cannabis doesnt have this mechanism, and i would imagine that self fertilisation is a last resort of weed plants to try and produce seeds (hence the tendancy for sensi plants to make male flowers when over ripened).

 

[englishrick]

do any of you guys think that "selfing" can lead to fems that self themselvs,,,,or do we all think this can be avoided by stress testing inderviduals?

 

[lost in a sea]

the hermie genes have found their way into the gene pool, but just like anything, with hard work if you breed away from any hermie traits you see your simply cutting down the potencial incidence. like rick says stress testing is good, but small selection breeding methods (like <30 plants) always bottle neck genetics when compared with the lucky bastards crazy enough to do large 100-1000 plant selection grows, that produce seeds that will be carrying the widest possible gene pool.

people who are breeding for themselves can obviously do what they want. but i think that so many people breed, using strains from guys like shanti & dj, or whoever, that those beans, because they carry such a varied gene pool, do so much more for the gene pool of ganja on a wide scale later on down the line.

but if you, or peeps doing this, are just having a fun project, then so long as you breed out the offspring, and qualify that no "problems" have been passed on that you werent aware of, then its fine.

but if people breed from those beans and try to use any of the males, the males wont be passing on the full compliment of chromosomes. males are very important thats why people keep the original dads aswell as the moms.

that first generation will probably be phat girls fairly similar to that 1 mom, but i dont think i like where were going when people breed from the seeds, made from that original femmed girl. it wont be helping to widen or strengthen the future overall gene pool.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

but if people breed from those beans and try to use any of the males, the males wont be passing on the full compliment of chromosomes. males are very important thats why people keep the original dads aswell as the moms.

How many males will we find from selfed seeds?

 

[guest123]

using strains from guys like shanti & dj, or whoever, that those beans, because they carry such a varied gene pool, do so much more for the gene pool of ganja on a wide scale later on down the line.

The varied gene pool of DJ and Shanti etc? Can you elaborate a little on that comment please?

 

[lost in a sea]

technically there should be none i think, i have heard people on ic say theyve found em but i didnt say there should be any from the initial beans made from that selfed girl . im only throwing my 2 rubels in here based on what i think i know.

question:

when the community breeds with the offspring of the selfed girl, where do we get?

 

[lost in a sea]

The varied gene pool of DJ and Shanti? Can you elaborate a little on that comment please?

they both select/selected their parents from 1000's of plants. not just some hack closet breeder forcing the first good tasting girl to be the mother of their new strain for example.
the more plants you involve in your selection generations the more you can be sure the parents you select have a strong gene pool within.


comprende

 

[guest123]

How does that create variation? And where did you obtain this info that "they both select/selected their parents from 1000's of plants"? Got a link?

 

[lost in a sea]

How does that create variation? And where did you obtain this info that "they both select/selected their parents from 1000's of plants"? Got a link?

sorry sorry sorry

if you dont know shit thats your problem, i dont have a fucking list of links ok? "wher did you obtain this info" WTF, i traded a man with a dark glasses a brown paper envelope to obtain it !!!

how do you think i obtained it ??? its common knowledge around here, and has been for decades.

go read some books!! you know paper with knowledge on it!! try the books written about luthar burbank for example , their free to read online, go learn about heredity, allele frequenciesand population gene pools.

if your breeding using 50 girls and 30 males the allele frequencies will have a greater variation than 10 girls and 5 males. if someone hit the progeny of a selfed girl with some pollen the resulting populations allele freq's will be crap.

like i said , it dont matter for small projects, but im trying to explain why you still have to do all the work to breed out a mother, just like you would normaly, before you self her. you cant just self any random really good girl you got from a 10 pack, and stand there and say its future breeding stock for the masses.

i have been watching this scene since overgrow back in the day. i know that both shantibaba and dj have had breeding projects in switzerland, for example. at huge facilities, selecting over 1000's of plants. as have many other top breeders.

 

[guest123]

if you dont know shit thats your problem, i dont have a fucking list of links ok? "wher did you obtain this info" WTF, i traded a man with a dark glasses a brown paper envelope to obtain it !!!

how do you think i obtained it ??? its common knowledge around here, and has been for decades.

go read some books!! you know paper with knowledge on it!! try the books written about luthar burbank for example , their free to read online, go learn about heredity and population gene pools.

i have been watching this scene since overgrow back in the day. i know that both shantibaba and dj have had breeding projects in switzerland, for example. at huge facilities, selecting over 1000's of plants. as have many other top breeders.

It's common ignorance around here is more like it. DJ's lines are so intensely inbred that to say that they are a source of genetic diversity is a laugh and a half. Breeders use his lines effectively because they often contain plants prepotent in their desirable traits, certainly not because of their genetic diversity. Shanti, I don't know man, those looked liked greenhouses full of clones to me? If you're gunna spew junk then back it up. This is a cannabis site designed to learn and communicate knowledge I thought. So, you can't tell me how selecting from thousands of plants creates genetic diversity? Of course you can't, because it doesn't. Why don't you pick up a book? "overgrow", back in the day? rotflmao...

 

[Aerokush101]

i heard that it is not good to breed with fem'd seed,can someone please tell me why?and explain it to me like i'm 5 years old!

Because it's not a true female. Kinda like two girls having a baby, then that child is being used to make more children, something is probably going to go wrong down the line. Concept, not proven, also note that I know nothing at all...

Also remember a lot of "clone onlies" are femm'd creations and they are often used in breed situations. You never know, try it, if it works, report it back to us...

Pimp your plants...

 

[Hazy Lady]

Hi All

nice thread and this plant is one of my all time favorite smokes. When Nev and I were doing the large population tests, we got down to a few selected females from over 1000 seeds...many years ago. I selected Mango Haze and Nev selected SSH...we then stabilized the strains over a series of breeding generations and SSH came out first . It took me a little longer to get the MH sorted but I feel the work put in was rewarded as everytime i grow it from a F1 seed I find something very close to the original.

All who managed to grow her find it similar...and out of a packet will always find a select mother to make their fortune with...let`s hope you all do too.....all the best Sb
__________________
ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ

all the best,
Shantibaba
www.mrnice.nl

Heres Shanti talking about Mango Haze in Cocktail Franks 'fav weed' thread

 

[lost in a sea]

cannafriend-

"Shanti, I don't know man, those looked liked greenhouses full of clones to me? If you're gunna spew junk then back it up."

same to you. "greenhouses full of clones", wierd, why clones?

a breeding project where 40 girls from 1000 seeds are initially selected will have a stronger more varied gene pool than a bottle necked project using 4 from 10.

ic mag is for sharing opinions. cannafriend you just tell people they are wrong, you dont add anything constructive at all, the internet doesnt need anymore nazi's policing people's opinions, so if your looking for knowledge then go read the growfaq wherever it is.

 

[Raco]

I think that cannafriend is going to win...consider yourself touché lol

a breeding project where 40 girls from 1000 seeds are initially selected will have a stronger more varied gene pool than a bottle necked project using 4 from 10.

...and what if 1 out of those 4 proves itself far superior for every desired trait?
I mean,someone gets lucky and find a very special girl (or boy)that is better than any of those 40 out of 1,000?
But this thread is about breeding with fem seed..isn´t it?

 

[guest123]

The community will win when the bullshit subsides.

Hi Hazy Lady,

That is a polished comment with enormous room for deception is it not? Why doesn't he just come out and say how many females he selected from do you think? "Over a thousand seeds" is quite irrelevant isn't it. How many sprouted etc?

Lias,

If I have to explain to you why someone would grow clones then I don't know what to say man. First you extract "thousands of plants" from "over a thousand seeds"? Now you have extracted "40 girls" out of a "few". How many of those few did he use in the final matings? The reality of this is that you have absolutely no clue, is that about right? Opinions are fine, but you're dribbling "common knowledge" that is total BS. That's the problem.

Bottom line for the thread starter is this:

Anybody that says gynoecious selections are somehow inferior and that "real breeders" do it some other way etc, well, they are full of crap and don't have the juice to back up their claims. They have been sent out into the void to spread the word but massa has armed them with a silk shield and a toothpick.

 

[VerdantGreen]

....


but if people breed from those beans and try to use any of the males, the males wont be passing on the full compliment of chromosomes. males are very important thats why people keep the original dads aswell as the moms.
...

as far as i know, this is one of the pieces of misinformation that gets passed around. as soon as you introduce a regular male in your breeding program and pollinate a femmed female, then you have your chromosome back and all the offspring are regular male and female.

V.