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Wearing Masks
- Thread starter EsterEssence
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this article is full of bad unlogical and wrong info, hence im deleting it.
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https://www.statesattorney.org/2020/05/01/covid-19-criminal-assault-battery/
Fwiw, i’ve read multiple news stories where authorities are going after maskless people for intentionally breathing or coughing on others, and the charges mentioned in the stories was assault.
Yes, i pulled the 99% figure out of my ass. I suppose i should have said “virtually every” instead of using a number, but i figured i would low ball the number and went with 99%. Im pretty sure it is higher than 99%.
good catch, that makes no sense. US is at 150k or something alone, hm. maybe 460k?
this article is a mess, those numbers don't make sense. sorry for sharing it before checking it better. i think i will remove it.
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St. Phatty
Active member
>> The total number of cases globally since the pandemic began has now climbed to over 312,000. The official death toll across the world currently stands at more than 46,600, but clearly this figure is fluid.
Decent Pun ! ! !
Decent Pun ! ! !
I agree the operative word is “intentional”.
Hypothetical question: If a person knows they are infected with covid19, and decides to go out in public, should that person wear a mask?
Switcher56
Comfortably numb!
Not sure where he got his # from but, as I type world deaths are reported as 773,741 worldwide of which the US owns 22.4% of them.
Switcher56
Comfortably numb!
True! But some dimwitted people do!
here's how i see it:
because of asymptomatic spread, we gotta assume EVERYONE is infected.
also, just because you aren't breathing directly on someone, it doesn't really mean you aren't constantly expelling aerosolized cooties.
with that in mind, i don't think anyone has a good excuse for going mask free in stores n shit... cept infants (who shouldnt be in public anyway)
because of asymptomatic spread, we gotta assume EVERYONE is infected.
also, just because you aren't breathing directly on someone, it doesn't really mean you aren't constantly expelling aerosolized cooties.
with that in mind, i don't think anyone has a good excuse for going mask free in stores n shit... cept infants (who shouldnt be in public anyway)
a sick person going out in crowds should be fined heavily right now.
mask aint gonna stop him spreading his germs.
i have to say its sureal to be living here, life is almost back to normal. they are now working on allowing events with 1k people or more again. that means festivals matches and concerts will be starting up again soon.
people ouside are 99% not wearing masks, even in shops, only food sellers wear them and inside all public transport its madatory. i find it hard to wear 1 even for 1 hour, sweat runs down my face underneath it, my sunglasses get steamed up and its making the air i breath hot. not fun, but makes sense to wear them, i guess.
specially in long train trips. but yeah im keeping out of the trains during rush hour for now. although life is very normal, its crazy when i read about England, the US, Spain, France all having to reverse course with re opening.
our health ministry is imposing return quorentines on more and more countries. i really wonder if it's only a matter of time till it surges here again too.
specially as i see people partying outside a lot and being very close together while partying. even just on the street cafes people are totally not distancing and talking to eachother full face to face again.
its been like that for about 3 months now, but specially the last 6 weeks of hot summer weather has brought a party mood back. there is only so long when humans can stop acting human without going nuts.
police do not police mask or distancing rules. when it comes to masks in public transport, people police each other and the speakers keep repeating that masks are mandated, at every stop.
in shops the workers look after distancing. but outside, there is no rules anymore it seems. those that are worried ofcourse will be out of sight.
but yeah, if we were not slowly getting some kind of immunity, we would have had mass surges of covid popping up all over the place by now. thats why i wonder if that t cell memory theory isnt true after all.
some thing needs to explain how this super highly contagious shit is not infecting masses of people that are ignoring distancing rules like it aint no thing.
mask aint gonna stop him spreading his germs.
i have to say its sureal to be living here, life is almost back to normal. they are now working on allowing events with 1k people or more again. that means festivals matches and concerts will be starting up again soon.
people ouside are 99% not wearing masks, even in shops, only food sellers wear them and inside all public transport its madatory. i find it hard to wear 1 even for 1 hour, sweat runs down my face underneath it, my sunglasses get steamed up and its making the air i breath hot. not fun, but makes sense to wear them, i guess.
specially in long train trips. but yeah im keeping out of the trains during rush hour for now. although life is very normal, its crazy when i read about England, the US, Spain, France all having to reverse course with re opening.
our health ministry is imposing return quorentines on more and more countries. i really wonder if it's only a matter of time till it surges here again too.
specially as i see people partying outside a lot and being very close together while partying. even just on the street cafes people are totally not distancing and talking to eachother full face to face again.
its been like that for about 3 months now, but specially the last 6 weeks of hot summer weather has brought a party mood back. there is only so long when humans can stop acting human without going nuts.
police do not police mask or distancing rules. when it comes to masks in public transport, people police each other and the speakers keep repeating that masks are mandated, at every stop.
in shops the workers look after distancing. but outside, there is no rules anymore it seems. those that are worried ofcourse will be out of sight.
but yeah, if we were not slowly getting some kind of immunity, we would have had mass surges of covid popping up all over the place by now. thats why i wonder if that t cell memory theory isnt true after all.
some thing needs to explain how this super highly contagious shit is not infecting masses of people that are ignoring distancing rules like it aint no thing.
Thank you. I completely agree with your response to switcher56. I’ve witnessed it first hand. Surgeons will ask why do we(meaning the hospital or the state) have this “stupid” rule, and then we explain the stupid thing one of their partners did that made the rule necessary. That usually stops the discussion, but not always. Sorry for the tangent.
Get ready for some C99/Tangie stoner logic
:In my prior line of work(operating room nurse)we follow Standard Precautions. The basic premise/assumption is that it is impossible to know if a specific patient has a highly contagious disease such as hepatitis C or HIV, etc, so every patient is assumed to be infected and basic standard precautions are taken when we are dealing with blood, body fluids, and other sources of infection.
We know that covid19 is extremely infectious and has shown that it can be spread presymptomatically and/or asymptomatically, AND ive read estimates from 30 to 50% of the infected are pre/asymptomatic. We can’t assume that the only people who are infected are the ones who have been tested simply because they are symptomatic.
Thus, the experts have taken a “standard precautions” approach, and have publicly stated that since it is impossible to know who is infected, we must assume that everyone is infected. And since we are assuming that everyone is infected, everyone must wear masks to protect those around them.
Stepping away from this line of reasoning for a moment, lets jump back to the term assault.
From law.cornell.edu
“The definition of assault varies by jurisdiction, but is generally defined as intentionally putting another person in reasonable apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact. Physical injury is not required.
Overview
Some jurisdictions label "assault" as "attempted battery." In tort law, assault is considered an intentional tort.
"Apprehension"
In the context of assault, the victim's "apprehension" happens if the victim believes that the tortfeasor's conduct will result in imminent harmful or offensive contact unless it is prevented.
It is not necessary that the victim believes the conduct will be effective in making such contact, only that the victim believes the conduct is capable of making such contact.
Assault and Battery
In an act of physical violence by one person against another, "assault" is usually paired with battery. In an act of physical violence, assault refers to the act which causes the victim to apprehend imminent physical harm, while battery refers to the actual act causing the physical harm.
Aggravated Assault
Aggravated assault refers to an assault with an additional aggravating circumstance. As such, the liability and sentencing for aggravated assault is generally more severe than that for an ordinary assault.
Prima Facie
The prima facie case for "assault" has 3 components:
The defendant acts
The defendant intends to cause the victim to apprehend imminent harmful contact from the defendant
The defendant's action causes the victim to reasonably apprehend such a contact.”
And while we are on the subject, of assault/battery, it would be negligent of me not to mention criminal negligence.
“Negligence, in law, the failure to meet a standard of behaviour established to protect society against unreasonable risk.
The doctrine of negligence does not require the elimination of all risk from a persons’ conduct—only all unreasonable risk, which is measured by the seriousness of possible consequences. Thus, a higher standard applies to nitroglycerin manufacturers than to those making kitchen matches. In certain critical fields—e.g., the milk industry—the law imposes liability for any mistakes, even when the strictest precautions are taken, a policy known as strict liability.
The standard of behaviour is external. Generally, the law examines only conduct, not the excitability, ignorance, or stupidity that may cause it. The courts determine what the hypothetical “reasonable person” would have done in the situation. Such standards also demand a degree of foresight in anticipating the negligence of others—especially of special groups such as children.”
And my final tangent: Many years ago, i was working as a travel nurse in New England. My landlord would come into the house i was renting when i was at work. I asked him to stop. He said it was his house and he could do as he pleased. The conversation became heated. It was obvious to me that he had been drinking as he was becoming more and more angry and vocal. The conversation ended with him saying ha he was in no shape to drive, but he would come to the house first thing in the morning. I wont repeat what he said, but it was clear to me that his intention was to hurt me.
I was talking with a friend about my fear. He told me that his daughter was a state trooper, and told me about a magical phrase.
Different occupations have these magical phrases. When we hear the phrase, it requires a specific action. The big one in healthcare is “i have chest pain”. When we hear those words, everything else becomes secondary, and we have no choice but to follow a certain set of algorithms.
The phrase he told me would require the same type of response. The next morning, i heard my landlord pulling up the driveway. I instantly got in the phone, and said those five magic words. It took the landlord a couple of minutes to get out of the truck and walk up to the house. As i was opening the door, a police car shot up the driveway like a rocket and stopped next to his truck. The officer was at the door before my landlord could say a word. Lucky for me, he had been drinking before he came to the house, and the officer shut him down and sent him away with a clear warning to stay away from me and the house. The problem didn’t really get solved for another week, but i never saw or spoke to the landlord again.
What were those five magical words?
“I AM AFRAID FOR MY SAFETY”
You probably can see where i am going with all of this.
Since everyone is assumed to have covid19, an extremely contagious disease that can that is easily spread through droplets and perhaps through aerosols. As described in the legal portion above, even if a person deems the precaution as silly or stupid, they must,at the minimum, take basic precautions. The basic precautions in the case of covid19 would be social distancing and wearing a mask in public.
To repeat a portion from above:
“In the context of assault, the victim's "apprehension" happens if the victim believes that the tortfeasor's conduct will result in imminent harmful or offensive contact unless it is prevented.
It is not necessary that the victim believes the conduct will be effective in making such contact, only that the victim believes the conduct is capable of making such contact.”
Thusly, by c99/tangie stoner logic, if a patron in a store is afraid for their safety because someone with covid19 whom isn’t wearing a mask is in close proximity, and that person has been instructed by public safety officials to wear a mask and intentionally does not, then there’s been an assault. I believe that criminal negligence could also be argued, as the definition also seems to apply.
Whew.
Thank you. I completely agree with your response to switcher56. I’ve witnessed it first hand. Surgeons will ask why do we(meaning the hospital or the state) have this “stupid” rule, and then we explain the stupid thing one of their partners did that made the rule necessary. That usually stops the discussion, but not always. Sorry for the tangent.
Get ready for some C99/Tangie stoner logic
In my prior line of work(operating room nurse)we follow Standard Precautions. The basic premise/assumption is that it is impossible to know if a specific patient has a highly contagious disease such as hepatitis C or HIV, etc, so every patient is assumed to be infected and basic standard precautions are taken when we are dealing with blood, body fluids, and other sources of infection.
We know that covid19 is extremely infectious and has shown that it can be spread presymptomatically and/or asymptomatically, AND ive read estimates from 30 to 50% of the infected are pre/asymptomatic. We can’t assume that the only people who are infected are the ones who have been tested simply because they are symptomatic.
Thus, the experts have taken a “standard precautions” approach, and have publicly stated that since it is impossible to know who is infected, we must assume that everyone is infected. And since we are assuming that everyone is infected, everyone must wear masks to protect those around them.
Stepping away from this line of reasoning for a moment, lets jump back to the term assault.
From law.cornell.edu
“The definition of assault varies by jurisdiction, but is generally defined as intentionally putting another person in reasonable apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact. Physical injury is not required.
Overview
Some jurisdictions label "assault" as "attempted battery." In tort law, assault is considered an intentional tort.
"Apprehension"
In the context of assault, the victim's "apprehension" happens if the victim believes that the tortfeasor's conduct will result in imminent harmful or offensive contact unless it is prevented.
It is not necessary that the victim believes the conduct will be effective in making such contact, only that the victim believes the conduct is capable of making such contact.
Assault and Battery
In an act of physical violence by one person against another, "assault" is usually paired with battery. In an act of physical violence, assault refers to the act which causes the victim to apprehend imminent physical harm, while battery refers to the actual act causing the physical harm.
Aggravated Assault
Aggravated assault refers to an assault with an additional aggravating circumstance. As such, the liability and sentencing for aggravated assault is generally more severe than that for an ordinary assault.
Prima Facie
The prima facie case for "assault" has 3 components:
The defendant acts
The defendant intends to cause the victim to apprehend imminent harmful contact from the defendant
The defendant's action causes the victim to reasonably apprehend such a contact.”
And while we are on the subject, of assault/battery, it would be negligent of me not to mention criminal negligence.
“Negligence, in law, the failure to meet a standard of behaviour established to protect society against unreasonable risk.
The doctrine of negligence does not require the elimination of all risk from a persons’ conduct—only all unreasonable risk, which is measured by the seriousness of possible consequences. Thus, a higher standard applies to nitroglycerin manufacturers than to those making kitchen matches. In certain critical fields—e.g., the milk industry—the law imposes liability for any mistakes, even when the strictest precautions are taken, a policy known as strict liability.
The standard of behaviour is external. Generally, the law examines only conduct, not the excitability, ignorance, or stupidity that may cause it. The courts determine what the hypothetical “reasonable person” would have done in the situation. Such standards also demand a degree of foresight in anticipating the negligence of others—especially of special groups such as children.”
And my final tangent: Many years ago, i was working as a travel nurse in New England. My landlord would come into the house i was renting when i was at work. I asked him to stop. He said it was his house and he could do as he pleased. The conversation became heated. It was obvious to me that he had been drinking as he was becoming more and more angry and vocal. The conversation ended with him saying ha he was in no shape to drive, but he would come to the house first thing in the morning. I wont repeat what he said, but it was clear to me that his intention was to hurt me.
I was talking with a friend about my fear. He told me that his daughter was a state trooper, and told me about a magical phrase.
Different occupations have these magical phrases. When we hear the phrase, it requires a specific action. The big one in healthcare is “i have chest pain”. When we hear those words, everything else becomes secondary, and we have no choice but to follow a certain set of algorithms.
The phrase he told me would require the same type of response. The next morning, i heard my landlord pulling up the driveway. I instantly got in the phone, and said those five magic words. It took the landlord a couple of minutes to get out of the truck and walk up to the house. As i was opening the door, a police car shot up the driveway like a rocket and stopped next to his truck. The officer was at the door before my landlord could say a word. Lucky for me, he had been drinking before he came to the house, and the officer shut him down and sent him away with a clear warning to stay away from me and the house. The problem didn’t really get solved for another week, but i never saw or spoke to the landlord again.
What were those five magical words?
“I AM AFRAID FOR MY SAFETY”
You probably can see where i am going with all of this.
Since everyone is assumed to have covid19, an extremely contagious disease that can that is easily spread through droplets and perhaps through aerosols. As described in the legal portion above, even if a person deems the precaution as silly or stupid, they must,at the minimum, take basic precautions. The basic precautions in the case of covid19 would be social distancing and wearing a mask in public.
To repeat a portion from above:
“In the context of assault, the victim's "apprehension" happens if the victim believes that the tortfeasor's conduct will result in imminent harmful or offensive contact unless it is prevented.
It is not necessary that the victim believes the conduct will be effective in making such contact, only that the victim believes the conduct is capable of making such contact.”
Thusly, by c99/tangie stoner logic, if a patron in a store is afraid for their safety because someone with covid19 whom isn’t wearing a mask is in close proximity, and that person has been instructed by public safety officials to wear a mask and intentionally does not, then there’s been an assault. I believe that criminal negligence could also be argued, as the definition also seems to apply.
Whew.
interesting post.
they been talking about mandating masks in the shops too, but so far the step hasn't been taken here in Switzerland. we have hairdresser and food service employees having to mask up.
like i said, the behaiviour im seeing now should be leading to an explosion of cases. yes people are mostly partying in outside places, but they don't stop when its dark so the covid is no longer getting killed by the sunlight.
quite worrying to see. you ride a bus thats nearly empty, with a mask, while you ride past groups of 50 people chilling like before covid. no masks no distance, loud music, drink, smoke and general good times.
quite hard to understand what the fuck is going on, why is it so different in different places...
White Beard
Active member
Viral load, immune-system vitality, frequency/intensity of exposure are all factors here...but I freely admit I have no more firsthand knowledge of Switzerland than you do of the US. Here, the unmasked are rather aggressive about crowding together, jamming up in-line, frequently much less than arm’s length...and the unwillingly masked ignore distancing/personal-space invasion/etc...and frequently pulling masks down to reveal the nose entirely and sometimes exposing their entire mouth.
As for us building up “some kind of immunity“, it’s been demonstrated fairly clearly that antibodies disappear after a couple of months - and sufficient exposure/viral load will give them a whole new case; and again, after recovery, the antibodies - that is, the protective immune response goes away. I know two personally who have had it, recovered, and got it again; I’m pretty sure that’s going to be the source of a lot of damage in addition to deaths.
Around here, a high school gained nearly 1000 new cases in the first week of school...they’re closed back down now. For “cleaning”. They actually plan to reopen two weeks from today....
It’s getting harder and harder to isolate effectively: trips out MUST be made, and the stores are MORE crowded and LESS distanced than before all this mess began. We’re holding on by the skin of our teeth; spouse is now in isolation For two weeks following an involuntary exposure (ie, ‘foolish move), while the rest of us try to see to her and still keep ourselves and the rest safe. With my inability to return to work (given the nature of my work), the absence of any assistance at all means we barely eat for servicing all the bills, just keeping afloat.
The explanation is simple: it’s not true. Masses of people ARE being infected...but we’ve stopped testing more or less entirely - except of patients delivered by ambulance to the hospitals. That *keeps* the “official” numbers down, as Trump requires...but after every mass unmasked event, there is an explosion of new cases.
Latest case in point: the Sturgis rally in North Dakota is the latest social-engineering event, some 200,000 partying “bikers” jammed together for, what, a week? They’ve come from EVERY state - and then they’ll return to those states, probably via a scenic route, the ones infected long enough to be contagious will leave trails of infection behind them. 3-4 weeks from now, we’ll see substantial increase of cases across the nation directly attributable to the (unmasked and untallied) infected and their three contacts.
Let me explain what I mean by three contacts: there’s an indicator, R0, which expresses the rate of transmission from a single transmissor; for the flu, R0=1 - which is to say that on average, a flu sufferer will give it to one other person. With this coronavirus, the R0=3. And yes, that means that each covid sufferer will pass it on to 3 others. So let’s say that of those 200k bikers only ONE percent become contagious, that’s 2000 people. Times 3, that’s another 6000, for a total of 8000 so far; each of that first-round 6000 ’contributes’ another 3 each, for another 18,000 - and now we have 26,000. Take it another step, and those 26,000 bumped to 78,000 for 104,000 total from this burst alone. Next round is 312,000, or a cumulative 936,000; then 3,744,000.
It keeps going ... and this is AVERAGE transmission rates, when sick people are mostly in bed, and maybe their spouse of whatever is the only one they infect. At a mass gathering, unmasked and undistanced, that initial guesstimate of 1% communicable during their trip home is really effing low: 10% is a more reasonable estimate...so add a zero to each of those figures I’ve given. Instead of 3.7 million, we’re more likely to have as much as 37,000,000. Within the next month. With schools open, and people forced to return to work to keep the roof over their heads, try to imagine where we’re headed...I mean, we’ve hit TEN PER CENT of our population.
There aren’t and won’t be enough beds, enough equipment, enough drugs, enough medical personnel to handle even the low-ball estimate of another 3,700,000 cases in so short a time. Overwhelm and mass deaths are inevitable - though of course only time will tell us the true numbers...if Trump ever gets his head out of his ass and makes an effort to prevent this from becoming an extinction-level event.
A lesson for the ages: willfull ignorance doesn’t make things better
but then why are peeps still getting hit, yes no surge but still daily new cases. very few dieing here now, but thats not true in many places.
i rather think some kind of herd immunity is slowly spreading. many are still in danger, but not everyone anymore and the indangerd group will get smaller still.
thats description of life, is so sureal for me, i know its true as i been following the news. thats what i just don't get, why is it so different?
its horrible the way masks become political instead of common sense based protective tool they are. but i do wonder how many are not getting sufficient fresh air and sunlight weaking their immune system resulting in covid messing them up.
so you personally know 2 cases that got it again?
man i don't even know 1 pers n that had it officially. a few like myself think they had it, but tested confirmed i nor my friends in rl know anyone thats been diagnosed as positive.
anyway the fact the antibodies go away is normal when you are finished fighting off the virus. but your body has a t-cell related way to remember how to create the needed antibodies. thats the theory anyway.
i could video the streets right now and show you what i was saying. im sure there is youtube videos showing examples. i only have to head to the old part of town. i believe what your saying, but i know what i have been seeing for months now.
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