Vote NO to legalize cannabis....Or else

[Donn]

but after 7 years of comparing Colorado (highly regulated wide scale model) and California (moderate to lowly regulated wide scale model), everything I've seen is telling me to continue supporting the regulated, limited model that has been developed here in Colorado. Less federal harassment, more tax revenue, more transparency which led to more trust from the public and various authorities.

Thanks, that helps a lot to clarify what you're talking about. In terms of state legalization, I would think that Colorado is somewhere on the liberal end of what's likely, Washington being on the other end of the scale. Any legal system is going to be fairly tightly regulated, not for market economics reasons but there are societal issues like under-age consumption, leakage in and out of black markets in other states and countries, and of course the tax thing. The tomato model is only a fantasy in our lifetimes.

The "big one" that's coming is federal legalization, which will bring Phillip Morris, big pharma etc. into the game. Their influence will be prodigious, but we have a few years head start, to use as we choose. In my opinion, it would be a tragedy if all we have at the end of that time is a slightly expanded version of today's "medical" market, because they'll own something like that faster than you can see it coming. We need to develop a more sophisticated above-ground market, with vocabulary and everything, in a huge hurry, somewhat parallel with where wine's at after generations of work but in 5 years. That's how you fight fast-food-quality weed, with education, and we have the floor to ourselves right now.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Sustainability or a rush towards a crash / industrialization of cannabis? I'm going to support the sustainable model with my every breath, because sustainable growth is the future of our planet.

Underlights growing is sustainable growth? Not in my book. Anyway I think you are mixing sustainable growth with sustainable growing, or sustainable agriculture but under lights is neither.
Sustainable Agriculture:
satisfy human food and fiber needs; (fibers under lights?)
enhance environmental quality and the natural resource base upon which the agricultural economy depends; (under lights?)
make the most efficient use of nonrenewable resources and on-farm resources and integrate, where appropriate, natural biological cycles and controls; (under lights?)
sustain the economic viability of farm operations; and
enhance the quality of life for farmers and society as a whole
(under lights?)

Sustainable economic growth means a rate of growth which can be maintained without creating other significant economic problems, especially for future generations. There is clearly a trade-off between rapid economic growth today, and growth in the future. Rapid growth today may exhaust resources (like power to grow under lights) and create environmental problems for future generations, including the depletion of oil and fish stocks, and global warming.

I also like a bunch of other hippie sounding stuff like alternative energy and free range raised food animals, etc, I guess i'm a douche... w/e

Any chance you grow you indoor crop under lights powered by alternative energy or is it just for small uses? I like free range animals but they are much better quality if produced under lights indoors, LOL

Boom and crash that shuffles production into the hands of corporations, or sustainable growth like we've already seen that sees people in the industry with skill able to build their own businesses? Those are the two paths forward, yes they're both better than backwards into prohibition, but after 7 years of comparing Colorado (highly regulated wide scale model) and California (moderate to lowly regulated wide scale model), everything I've seen is telling me to continue supporting the regulated, limited model that has been developed here in Colorado. Less federal harassment, more tax revenue, more transparency which led to more trust from the public and various authorities.

Most of the above can be used with outdoor growing as easy as indoor growing, if Calif gets legal recreational in 2016 they will tax it and the taxes raised will leave Colorado in the dust. Lets be honest.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Thanks, that helps a lot to clarify what you're talking about. In terms of state legalization, I would think that Colorado is somewhere on the liberal end of what's likely, Washington being on the other end of the scale. Any legal system is going to be fairly tightly regulated, not for market economics reasons but there are societal issues like under-age consumption, leakage in and out of black markets in other states and countries, and of course the tax thing. The tomato model is only a fantasy in our lifetimes.

The "big one" that's coming is federal legalization, which will bring Phillip Morris, big pharma etc. into the game. Their influence will be prodigious, but we have a few years head start, to use as we choose. In my opinion, it would be a tragedy if all we have at the end of that time is a slightly expanded version of today's "medical" market, because they'll own something like that faster than you can see it coming. We need to develop a more sophisticated above-ground market, with vocabulary and everything, in a huge hurry, somewhat parallel with where wine's at after generations of work but in 5 years. That's how you fight fast-food-quality weed, with education, and we have the floor to ourselves right now.

I agree do you think that indoor under lights Cannabis can get a Appellation for anything? They have appellations for wine, AVA in the USA but they are based on areas, soils, varieties, what area AVA would an indoor Cannabis crop be considered? NONE.
-SamS

 

[glow]

Under lights production is not sustainable in anyone's books.... Its a madness that prohibition drove people indoors and now younger growers who have never produced outdoors have bought the hype that under lights production is the be all and end all for producing quality. Some merit to this argument because a system has been created that allows any hack to produce reasonably good produce under lights - however, good growers can produce the same if not even higher quality outdoors or in greenhouses. Then of course there are resins.

Copy of the the carbon footprint of indoor Cannabis production by Evan Mills (2012) here.... http://www.evan-mills.com/energy-associates/Indoor_files/cannabis-carbon-footprint.pdf

---- read actual research and number crunching by experts versus listening to opinion of growers and be the judge yourself..

 

[Donn]

I agree do you think that indoor under lights Cannabis can get a Appellation for anything? They have appellations for wine, AVA in the USA but they are based on areas, soils, varieties, what area AVA would an indoor Cannabis crop be considered? NONE.

Sure, but does anyone think there's a basis for it even with outdoor grown? I mean, it's an interesting question, but maybe far-fetched - and seems potentially at odds with the concentrates market you're talking about. Here I guess the wine analogy would point to brandy, grappa, etc. Which do sometimes feature varietals, but as far as I know the exact provenance of the grapes that go into a grappa are not such a big deal, as with the wine where you're closer to the vineyard.

Concentrates seem like kind of a wild card in the game if the win is to develop a sophisticated appreciation of cannabis. It's complicated enough with flower buds, which have a sort of inherent authenticity as long as we assume (as I do) that packagers aren't sprinkling them with anything.

 

[Jhhnn]

I can't say as I approve of where you are coming from but I appreciate your honesty ---- versus the lies of the clown pretender who started this thread. It's nice to see a commercial grower - would be canna capitalist - come out and say as a few percent of the many cannabis consumers I am happy for the many to be fucked by authorities so that I can profit. Thus, I would vote for prohibition and all that represents to sustain my ability to earn money at the expense of the many. The truth is what I find offensive is the bullshit that would be canna capitalists spin to sustain arguments for prohibition. I don't find the truth offensive per se. The truth gives us transparency. You have the right to these beliefs and I even understand them and can empathize. Thanks for the honesty.

Kinda harsh, I think.

I'm also having trouble seeing growing under lights as "sustainable" or "green". Keeping it there will def sustain prices, however.

Having found themselves a niche, many growers want to protect themselves from unfavorable change. They'd also like to ride the wave, so to speak. I can sympathize with that.

OTOH, we're experiencing a complete paradigm shift, a fundamental change in approach & underlying assumptions. It's like Swiss watchmakers confronted with miniaturized quartz timepieces or encyclopedia salesmen confronted by the internet.

Everything changes. The challenges of the future won't be overcome clinging to the ways of the past. Well, not if you want to make money.

I say that as a guy who'll never make a dime off it. Growing has become a retirement hobby. It's interesting & it keeps the price of staying stoned more reasonable.

 

[glow]

Kinda harsh, I think.

I'm also having trouble seeing growing under lights as "sustainable" or "green". Keeping it there will def sustain prices, however.

Having found themselves a niche, many growers want to protect themselves from unfavorable change. They'd also like to ride the wave, so to speak. I can sympathize with that.

OTOH, we're experiencing a complete paradigm shift, a fundamental change in approach & underlying assumptions. It's like Swiss watchmakers confronted with miniaturized quartz timepieces or encyclopedia salesmen confronted by the internet.

Everything changes. The challenges of the future won't be overcome clinging to the ways of the past. Well, not if you want to make money.

I say that as a guy who'll never make a dime off it. Growing has become a retirement hobby. It's interesting & it keeps the price of staying stoned more reasonable.

I hope that it isn't harsh but perhaps you're right. What I am saying is that communities being decimated, prisons being fulled, lives being destroyed, death being common place (murder, suicides) is kind of harsh. To support this is kind of harsh - so where it comes to this shit show (prohibition) I do not mince my words... And what I am also saying is that I appreciate the honesty so apologies if it seems harsh but when faced with the realities of prohibition my position is not harsh at all. Much like yourself though where you say " Having found themselves a niche, many growers want to protect themselves from unfavorable change. They'd also like to ride the wave, so to speak. I can sympathize with that." Ditto --- I do get that also hence stating that I empathize.

And yes definitely things are changing. Those who adapt to the change will do just fine - those who refuse to embrace change will be left behind. Glow

 

[Bud Green]

Jhhnn and glow:

So let's all push for legislation that allows us to grow our own, in our own back yards, (or our front yards, for that matter) for our own use, and to share with our friends, with no penalization....
Just like the tomatoes and flowers I grow in my own garden for my own family and friends to enjoy...

The freedom to enjoy (and profit from, if we so desire) the fruits of our own labors, so to speak...

 

[glow]

Jhhnn and glow:

So let's all push for legislation that allows us to grow our own, in our own back yards, (or our front yards, for that matter) for our own use, and to share with our friends, with no penalization....
Just like the tomatoes and flowers I grow in my own garden for my own family and friends to enjoy...

The freedom to enjoy (and profit from, if we so desire) the fruits of our own labors, so to speak...

Hey man totally agree on this. But... Any concessions that protect the "people" from the devastation of prohibition are steps in the right direction so I also support these with a bigger view in mind. Just because one Bill is approved that is less than perfect it doesn't mean that another Bill can't be proposed later that is more perfect. Given that legalization in some guise is already approved and experience shows crime goes down, tax revenue is a gain etc any further moves wil be more readily supported "by the people" (Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives etc ---- a broad demographic that is not homogeneous but as legalization breaks down the lies that have been used to sustain prohibition the wider communities views change over time). But yes fully - the end game is that anyone should be able to grow. Meantime support positive change with the bigger end game in mind.

 

[SooperSmurph]

Sustainability applies differently to different concepts.

A sustainable market is one that manages growth to avoid booms in supply that result in crashes in prices. If you now want to say the word "sustainable" needs to be applied with 1000% diligence to all aspects of my life in in order for someone to heaven forbid mention the word, then yeah, I should be weaving my clothes from my extra stems, does that somehow change the point? Nope, but you seem to think it has, which is the nature of an ad hominem argument, no facts, just attacking the person who disagrees with you.

You can sit and go on about semantics and glow can dance around calling me a prohibitionist, but it's all in your head, sorry.

 

[SooperSmurph]

First let's make sure only land owners can grow, they're so upset by years of small town cops that seeing the indoor market makes them lose the ability to think logically.

Next let's make sure the only people with voting rights are those same people who have enough land to make a living growing.

Now let's make sure those people are of the right race and background.

Now it's the 1600s, yay cholera!

Regulation > The Wild West, in history, and in the future.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Well we do agree on one thing, which is the nature of an ad hominem argument, no facts, just attacking the person who disagrees with you. Maybe you and a few others are a good example?
I understand the difference between sustainable agriculture and a sustainable market or economy I did list them both in my last post. And indoor under lights growing is neither.
-SamS

Sustainability applies differently to different concepts.

A sustainable market is one that manages growth to avoid booms in supply that result in crashes in prices. If you now want to say the word "sustainable" needs to be applied with 1000% diligence to all aspects of my life in in order for someone to heaven forbid mention the word, then yeah, I should be weaving my clothes from my extra stems, does that somehow change the point? Nope, but you seem to think it has, which is the nature of an ad hominem argument, no facts, just attacking the person who disagrees with you.

You can sit and go on about semantics and glow can dance around calling me a prohibitionist, but it's all in your head, sorry.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

x

First let's make sure only land owners can grow, they're so upset by years of small town cops that seeing the indoor market makes them lose the ability to think logically.

WTF? I never suggest only land owners that was from you. I do not own any land anywhere and if I wanted to grow outdoors I would lease agricultural land, wise up the tobacco companies do not own the land that the tobacco is grown on, it is by contract farmers that own the land.

Next let's make sure the only people with voting rights are those same people who have enough land to make a living growing.

Again WTF? You are the one saying this, no one else.

Now let's make sure those people are of the right race and background.

Well I do agree with this, I want my Cannabis grown by the human race, and I will be doing backround checks to be sure they are.

Now it's the 1600s, yay cholera!

It is not hard to believe as you say, that if outdoor growing becomes the norm that cholera will kill almost everyone, just because the outdoor growers can produce Cannabis and resin at a fraction of the cost of indoors under lights. We should of listened to you....... Or just maybe, the indoor market loss makes you lose the ability to think logically?
-SamS

Regulation > The Wild West, in history, and in the future.

 

[Shcrews]

I'll be entirely pleased to see cheap weed, everywhere, if only to see cops & growers get over themselves

stay classy...

 

[Shcrews]

It has started and will soon be the norm, I can't say if it will take a year or more but it will come and dominate the market.
-SamS

well there was rumors of your secret tech at least 5 years ago, and i still havent seen any skunkman sift anywhere. So it will probably be a while longer.

seems like rosin is the new hyped product these days anyway

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I like Rosin it can be great. A great use of med quality dry sift or water hash, make Rosin.
My hash is not around because I do not sell Cannabis or resin.
Thousands have tried it, over the last 20 years, and other folks can make some pretty good dry sift nowadays.
But yes it will be a while till you see my hash available, maybe a year or two maybe longer. And it will be made by others from their plants using my method if all goes as planned.
-SamS

 

[Shcrews]

My hash is not around because I do not sell Cannabis or resin.

you dont have to sell it dude. unless you need money. ever enter any cups?

 

[shaggyballs]

As I said you're cooked... If I were you I would now disappear, I'd say with some dignity intact but you lost that long ago. Goodbye Stanky Balls (Mark) --

Your stuck on stupid, I told you before I am not the mbferts guy Mark, tom or whatever he wants to call himself.

You just keep thinking that, it makes me laugh.

I ain't going anywhere!
Who the hell do you think you are anyway?
You were once someone I thought of as a good source of information at one time.
Now I see what you are really about.
You are the worlds biggest TROLL!
So troll on brother troll on.
Feel free to say all kind of nasty things about mbferts, I don't even shop there any more, so fire away till your blue in the face no skin off my nose.

So you and Mbferts can take a long walk off a short pier!
My life is better without either of you in it.
I put the both of you in the same category, both of you spread lies and are money hungry self serving crybabies!
........
Shag

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

you dont have to sell it dude. unless you need money. ever enter any cups?

Long before the HTCC I won a few in Fairfax and others in Santa Rosa, I did also win first place in the first HTCC, then I retired from cups, I did not like the vibe, they were fixed, and I just went to be a spectator, I was at every HTCC, maybe the only person that was.
-SamS

 

[Donn]

Maybe it's a kind of weird notion. Crossed my mind, maybe Washington state should (or does?) have a panel judged competition - but for what? It's ridiculous to hold one brand x up and call it "the best", when they're different in various ways and so are people's heads. It might be worth it anyway, though, if it turns up some really exalted stuff - and if it helps people start thinking about what that even means.