Vaporizing recommendations?

[Mia]

Yeah I thought about it after I typed it which is why I deleted it, I was making assumptions, and it couldn't be as I said. Talking out of my ass in other words lol. It is more than a display because it has to be able to talk back and adjust the voltage/current accordingly when you want to change temperatures. So it is a digital controller, which also explains the better accuracy you cite.
Other than that I'm sure they're both using the same aluminum block(which some people take issue with) as a heating element and same everything else.
9 vs. 2 is significant enough I suppose.

 

[Truthman]

Budtoaster, I found something that helps me in why I stated that the cloud's temperature will drop in the bowl due to a lot of airflow. The study used a volcano classic, and they found that the temperature when set to max(226C), was 218C on the screen closest to the heater, and 155C at the top of the herb. They used 200mg which most likely wasn't broken up well which is probably why the temperature dropped so much once it reached the surface of the herb, as well as the cold metal of the screen lowering some of that heat, and the 9 degree temperature fluctuation, but it also probably was air cooling off once it left the heated area, quickly. The volcano has a huge block, and it still has been shown to have air cooling off quickly once in got to the screen area.

This study shown the reason why loading a very small bow that is broken up real fine is needed, especially with most vaporizers, as the air temperature will drop a lot of it is packed too much, and the temperature won't be close to or at what you wanted. The budtoaster is a very different design based on the fact that the bowl is surrounded by the heater, and it's small so you aren't taking in so much air that it has to work real hard to keep the temperature stable.

BTW, I know it's sounds like I'm hating on the cloud or other vaporizers, but I'm not just using it as an example of what I'm trying to prove.

Go to Page 10

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...yvE_E2&sig=AHIEtbR2amB9-XK-eWC0KaRQfK1U6PXtGA

Also, notice in this video how the unit turns off to heat up in the middle of use, most likely due to all the air cooling off the heater. The red light means it's heating up(it turns red and blinking at the 0:25 mark). Also, notice how the vapor starts getting thin at the part closes to the bowl once this happens. Again not hating the cloud, it is has EXCELLENT heat retaining capabilities, just using it as an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=z3Zg07YtDUk

 

[SeaMaiden]

It sounds like you've made yourself an expert in vaporization, have read up on everything you can find and have put what you learned into practice. It sounds like you're absolutely passionate about vaporizing, too. Those are not necessarily bad things, no?

 

[BudToaster]

okay, good information, thanks.

i can't really talk about the Cloud or Volcanoe - no first hand experience

i have tried using a grinder but that just makes a pile of herb in the vial. i find it better to lightly shred the herb so it will stack up in the vial with a lot of voids so the air can flow around and through the herb. the vial can hold 125mg without packing -- i typically use half that.

the power cells i use can deliver the 12 amps instantly -- the algorithm causes the temp to increase slightly (1°F) with a toke.

here is before and after for about .08g after a 7 minutes session at 375°F

 

[skullznroses]

I use 365 or so, Ive found 5 degrees makes a difference in flavor. At 375 it tastes burn, at 365 its just barely not burnt.

I fill bags with a digital temp of 185, and I like that better then the 195 I used at first. Less impact, same high.

 

[brotherindica]

I wouldn't say it's the best vaporizer on the market. If you want an exact AIRFLOW(not just heater) temperature from the top to bottom of the bowl, quick temperature variable setting, and want to take in very little herb at a time for a more concentrated essential oil, cannabinoid hit at a good ratio to air so you can get as high as you can(besides eating herb), it isn't good for that. It is the BEST for being able to hold it's heater temperature so you can take bong like tokes, and get a quick, sympathetic nervous system high(adrenaline rush) which is still fun once in a while.

For the super duper, all day high, you need to activate the parasympathetic nervous system, and to do this you want thin(almost invisible) vapor as it will blend in with the air in your lungs, and not cause a reaction in the body that something is wrong, and the lungs need oxygen so it goes into fight-or-flight response which most people associate with a strong high but it's the tip of what you can do with inhaling herb. To achieve this really strong high or medicinal effect you need something that won't dilute the vapor too much with a lot of air, let you know the exact airflow temperature so you can know the exact or approximate temperature for the substance you want(which is easy to find online or with the mercks index), and can reach temperatures quick so you don't have to wait too long, as well as have water to cool, and filter, the small plant matter that get released . The only vaporizer I know that does this is the Aromed, but because a lot of people don't like the looks or the slow, medium inhale you have to do, and don't really care about actual temperature(they just want to get high and enjoy the flavor) they don't like it, and the cloud fills in that need for a super fast extraction, while also giving a choice to use glass pieces from numerous sources so more power to them for filling a hole in the industry.

Budtoaster, I found something that helps me in why I stated that the cloud's temperature will drop in the bowl due to a lot of airflow. The study used a volcano classic, and they found that the temperature when set to max(226C), was 218C on the screen closest to the heater, and 155C at the top of the herb. They used 200mg which most likely wasn't broken up well which is probably why the temperature dropped so much once it reached the surface of the herb, as well as the cold metal of the screen lowering some of that heat, and the 9 degree temperature fluctuation, but it also probably was air cooling off once it left the heated area, quickly. The volcano has a huge block, and it still has been shown to have air cooling off quickly once in got to the screen area.

This study shown the reason why loading a very small bow that is broken up real fine is needed, especially with most vaporizers, as the air temperature will drop a lot of it is packed too much, and the temperature won't be close to or at what you wanted. The budtoaster is a very different design based on the fact that the bowl is surrounded by the heater, and it's small so you aren't taking in so much air that it has to work real hard to keep the temperature stable.

BTW, I know it's sounds like I'm hating on the cloud or other vaporizers, but I'm not just using it as an example of what I'm trying to prove.

Go to Page 10

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...yvE_E2&sig=AHIEtbR2amB9-XK-eWC0KaRQfK1U6PXtGA

Also, notice in this video how the unit turns off to heat up in the middle of use, most likely due to all the air cooling off the heater. The red light means it's heating up(it turns red and blinking at the 0:25 mark). Also, notice how the vapor starts getting thin at the part closes to the bowl once this happens. Again not hating the cloud, it is has EXCELLENT heat retaining capabilities, just using it as an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=z3Zg07YtDUk

I do value your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.





The Aromed is nice, but honestly I didn't find it that much different then most vapes. I didn't like the exposed electrical socket to the air pathway or lack of GoG seal around the light bulb/herb camber.


After the 1st drag, using a long slow inhale, I can get a very nice draw/cloud off an Aromed.......certainly not a light, invisible vapor. All temperature related & how hard/slow you pull. I can get a smaller hit w/Cloud or a monster hit w/Cloud.....all how you pull & where the temp is set.




As for the sympathetic/parasympathetic NVS, you **shouldn't** be trying to activate the sympathetic.

Fight or flight response.....increased pulse, BP, respiration, etc......really only comes on from decreased oxygen and anxiety related to difficulty breathing. NOT the goal of any medical user. I have often taken my vitals when smoking/vaping/eating edibles. Can't say my BP or pulse has ever gone up after hitting the cloud, 99% of the time it drops.





Surface area, airflow, and temperature........the 3 things that affect vaporization. Doesn't really matter the vape..........just the physics behind the the concept.




And for the record, all the vapes mentioned...........Volcano, SSV, Budda, EQ, Aromed, Cloud, etc.......really aren't *that* different. Play with them enough and you can get damn near the same results. Some more work, some easier, some faster, some slower, some more $, some less $. In the end, stripping the cannabis of it's cannabinoids without combustion is the goal.




Highly, HIGHLY recommend "FC" to anyone serious about vaporization. Vape talk all day long there.

 

[BudToaster]

well, the 375°F is the hottest point of the heater coil ... center of the herb is cooler than that for sure, and only reaches 375°F on a long slow sigh-toke (or, as i like to say, psi-toke).

 

[flubnutz]

i cant remember the corresponding temps, but on the arizer portable, set it at 5 and you get thick hits with no toasted flavour. above that you get it. she goes good below 5 too, but 5 is the express lane

 

[supermanlives]

aeromed bong. party bong now. i loved my aeromed. i do think the bowl was a bit too deep. but its perfect now

 

[Truthman]

I do value your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.





The Aromed is nice, but honestly I didn't find it that much different then most vapes. I didn't like the exposed electrical socket to the air pathway or lack of GoG seal around the light bulb/herb camber.


After the 1st drag, using a long slow inhale, I can get a very nice draw/cloud off an Aromed.......certainly not a light, invisible vapor. All temperature related & how hard/slow you pull. I can get a smaller hit w/Cloud or a monster hit w/Cloud.....all how you pull & where the temp is set.




As for the sympathetic/parasympathetic NVS, you **shouldn't** be trying to activate the sympathetic.

Fight or flight response.....increased pulse, BP, respiration, etc......really only comes on from decreased oxygen and anxiety related to difficulty breathing. NOT the goal of any medical user. I have often taken my vitals when smoking/vaping/eating edibles. Can't say my BP or pulse has ever gone up after hitting the cloud, 99% of the time it drops.





Surface area, airflow, and temperature........the 3 things that affect vaporization. Doesn't really matter the vape..........just the physics behind the the concept.




And for the record, all the vapes mentioned...........Volcano, SSV, Budda, EQ, Aromed, Cloud, etc.......really aren't *that* different. Play with them enough and you can get damn near the same results. Some more work, some easier, some faster, some slower, some more $, some less $. In the end, stripping the cannabis of it's cannabinoids without combustion is the goal.




Highly, HIGHLY recommend "FC" to anyone serious about vaporization. Vape talk all day long there.

The Aromed is safe and the "exposed" socket isn't really exposed if you look at it. There is some metal between the light, and the internal wires. The rest of the electronics are in the box far away from the heat. Test have shown nothing is released but air. In Germany it has passed strict guidelines so it can be used for medical reasons, and Germany doesn't play when it comes to passing tests. Yes, it doesn't have a GOG seal but it doesn't need it as the connection dovetails into each other so the seal will make sure no air goes into the chamber. It's just most people are used to a tight seal because that's just how it's been all these years but the dovetail on the Aromed is a good seal, it just moves up and down because it's smooth.

I didn't state you will get a thin invisible vapor just because it's the aromed, I stated that is what you want to aim for.

The sympathetic and Parasympathetic will be activated based on how much oxygen is filling your lungs. How strongly it's activated depends on how potent your herb/hash is and how strong your nervous system is, but it's still activated. This is why people black out or get paranoid when they haven't eaten anything, and puffed some strong herb. Their sympathetic nervous system(which feeds off of sugar as it's processed faster then fat), perceived it is under attack due to the lungs inhaling less oxygen then normally, and the cannabis getting the system moving, so it has to react in some sort of way to get you out of harms way, at least it thinks it's being harmed because the lungs are made to inhale thin air. It either causes you to leave the area due to fear or you black out so glucose can get to the brain, and the system regenerates. This is something new and itsn't talked about so I understand if you don't believe, and it's sounds wrong.

Again, the vape matters if you care about vaping fast, have a high concentration of boiled substances to air while still being thin enough so the lungs will absorb damn near everything, and being exact in temperature(airflow) so you can boil off certain substances when you want to. If you don't care, and just want to get blazed without smoking then yes it doesn't matter, and more power to you.

Anyway, this was a fun conversation.

Budtoaster, the more I thought about the design of your vape, it is really the shit. It has the potential to be with the Aromed, and volcano digital as being the best in airflow temperature accuracy, but even better due to being so small which means less air to give a more concentrated vapor. Do you think you will make any designs that will allow you to use a screen on top of the herb so you can use very fine herb in the chamber without worrying about it flying into your mouth so you can get a very fast extraction due to high surface area?. What about adding some type of small water filtration, and directions on how to inhale to keep the airflow temperature accurate?. You have a potential classic on your hands for people like me who want to know those temperature numbers during inhale.

 

[brotherindica]

The Aromed is safe and the "exposed" socket isn't really exposed if you look at it. There is some metal between the light, and the internal wires. The rest of the electronics are in the box far away from the heat. Test have shown nothing is released but air. In Germany it has passed strict guidelines so it can be used for medical reasons, and Germany doesn't play when it comes to passing tests. Yes, it doesn't have a GOG seal but it doesn't need it as the connection dovetails into each other so the seal will make sure no air goes into the chamber. It's just most people are used to a tight seal because that's just how it's been all these years but the dovetail on the Aromed is a good seal, it just moves up and down because it's smooth.

I didn't state you will get a thin invisible vapor just because it's the aromed, I stated that is what you want to aim for.

The sympathetic and Parasympathetic will be activated based on how much oxygen is filling your lungs. How strongly it's activated depends on how potent your herb/hash is and how strong your nervous system is, but it's still activated. This is why people black out or get paranoid when they haven't eaten anything, and puffed some strong herb. Their sympathetic nervous system(which feeds off of sugar as it's processed faster then fat), perceived it is under attack due to the lungs inhaling less oxygen then normally, and the cannabis getting the system moving, so it has to react in some sort of way to get you out of harms way, at least it thinks it's being harmed because the lungs are made to inhale thin air. It either causes you to leave the area due to fear or you black out so glucose can get to the brain, and the system regenerates. This is something new and itsn't talked about so I understand if you don't believe, and it's sounds wrong.

Again, the vape matters if you care about vaping fast, have a high concentration of boiled substances to air while still being thin enough so the lungs will absorb damn near everything, and being exact in temperature(airflow) so you can boil off certain substances when you want to. If you don't care, and just want to get blazed without smoking then yes it doesn't matter, and more power to you.

Anyway, this was a fun conversation.

Just a difference of opinions on the vape.



You're right about the parasympathetic/sympathetic NVS. Rather basic biology there.



There is a difference between blacking out/paranoia related to cannabis and paranoia related to O2 deprivation.

Holding a big hit, decreasing O2 availability......this triggers the SNS. Heavy breathing, rapid heart beat, increased BP, adrenaline release, anxiety, paranoia, etc...........all related to the SNS.

Consuming cannabinoids and having paranoia, etc is related to the cannabis strain and the individual's metabolism..........their tolerance, ability to process cannabinoids, current blood chemistry (glucose, electrolytes, liver function,+,+), etc.


The same result can be had with any of the previously mentioned vaporizers. It really isn't related to any one vaporizer. It's a combination of the vaporizer, the cannabis, and the user.......and how well all 3 work together.







It's been.............interesting,

 

[BudToaster]

screen on top ... very fine herb in the chamber

vapor is thicker if the herb is not such a fine grind -- light pack of shredded herb is best. you could always add a screen at the top of the vial.

some type of small water filtration

i have no interest in having a water filled bong on my desk around my computers ... exercise left to the user.

and directions on how to inhale to keep the airflow temperature accurate

temperature stays accurate regardless of airflow volume/speed -- the microprocessor samples the heater temperature 3 times per second. however, a slow inhale like a sigh is best for more complete extraction to allow more time for the hot air to embrace the herb, melt the trichomes (although infrared radiation from the heater coil helps do this too), and vaporize the THC goo.

it is really the shit

yeah, i think it is ... just be waiting for a change in the paraphernalia laws.

 

[headband 707]

Sorry but if it came from "dr" Hornby or rosenthall it's probably bullshit.

Those guys are some scammers.

And so what, even if they were no more efficient, it's better than combustion and inhaling all at smoke.

You know I hear this comment a lot about Dr. Hornby and let me just say this if I may.. I know he has made a couple of mistakes either writting them down and having them publicized but other then those few mistakes which btw who hasn't made mistakes in their life ? I would have to say this guy is not that bad and he is still very much into playing with cannabis and he has toys to do so. So imvho I think ppl need to stop throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak !! headband 707

 

[immaculate]

Haha this quote sums it up perfect. From your article.

"Haha," yes, it sums up perfectly our point: Vaporizers are inefficient, and most people do not use them correctly. Setting seven(7) at six(6) bags...yeah, that's not going to work for patients who need to medicate on the fly. Below that, who knows what you're missing...(A colleague said: "I believe that earlier i stated that all of the active THC is not delivered until bag 4 at setting 7.5."...whatever makes sense to you, that ratio is fine with me)...by the time the setting is that high, you may as well be smoking anyway...and that's when the pot starts to taste more generic...

Deleterious effects on the respiratory system? Maybe...ask Phelps.

Of a general population study, those individuals who SMOKE cannabis are less likely to develop ANY form of cancer than those who SMOKE NOTHING at all...that's Tashkin's research...

I'll re-quote:

…large-scale population studies have failed to find any link between cannabis smoking and lung cancer or other respiratory ailments. Since the cannabinoids THC and cannabidiol (CBD) have both been shown to have cancer-fighting properties, scientists speculate that cannabinoids may have a prophylactic effect against damage that the tars and other potentially harmful chemicals present in cannabis smoke would otherwise cause. – Lee, G., and Sun, D.J.,

Mechoulam has talked and written about and studied it. For years.

No, the tars and chemicals released from burnt plant matter aren't necessarily good for the lungs, but it appears that pot in particular is generally less of an antagonist...and of course, the fact that no one develops respiratory diseases...it's simply explained: "The anti-carcinogenic effects of cannabis are literally negating any deleterious effects on the lungs resulting from plant combustion. At this point, that's basically how we understand it."

I like how you left this one out (on purpose, I presume):

“Theoretically, the vaporizer [they used a Volcano] might have been expected to realize a higher THC delivery efficiency than combustion, since it should have avoided loss of THC by pyrolysis. That this was not observed indicates that there were other inefficiencies in the vaporization process.” Efficiency of a traditional pipe according to Gierenger, et al. measured 78%, with little variance (they used radiating electric heat to torch the bowl, so take off whatever percentage you think is fair for a flame). The vape? High variance, measuring from 36% to 61%. Virtually the same results as doobies (34%-61%).

Here's that study: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...yvE_E2&sig=AHIEtbQYAWsWMqjPAM0d68p9L55TPNf-Xg

I'm not saying vaporizers don't work. Of course they do. And they certainly prevent carcinogenic contact with the lungs. I don't think they are, generally speaking, worth the time.



And it sounds like there's updated vaporizer research. Please, point me in the right direction.

 

[BudToaster]

obviously, it depends on the particular vape.

 

[Truthman]

"Haha," yes, it sums up perfectly our point: Vaporizers are inefficient, and most people do not use them correctly. Setting seven(7) at six(6) bags...yeah, that's not going to work for patients who need to medicate on the fly. Below that, who knows what you're missing...(A colleague said: "I believe that earlier i stated that all of the active THC is not delivered until bag 4 at setting 7.5."...whatever makes sense to you, that ratio is fine with me)...by the time the setting is that high, you may as well be smoking anyway...and that's when the pot starts to taste more generic...

Deleterious effects on the respiratory system? Maybe...ask Phelps.

Of a general population study, those individuals who SMOKE cannabis are less likely to develop ANY form of cancer than those who SMOKE NOTHING at all...that's Tashkin's research...

I'll re-quote:



Mechoulam has talked and written about and studied it. For years.

No, the tars and chemicals released from burnt plant matter aren't necessarily good for the lungs, but it appears that pot in particular is generally less of an antagonist...and of course, the fact that no one develops respiratory diseases...it's simply explained: "The anti-carcinogenic effects of cannabis are literally negating any deleterious effects on the lungs resulting from plant combustion. At this point, that's basically how we understand it."

I like how you left this one out (on purpose, I presume):



Here's that study: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...yvE_E2&sig=AHIEtbQYAWsWMqjPAM0d68p9L55TPNf-Xg

I'm not saying vaporizers don't work. Of course they do. And they certainly prevent carcinogenic contact with the lungs. I don't think they are, generally speaking, worth the time.



And it sounds like there's updated vaporizer research. Please, point me in the right direction.

It comes down to this, once you learn the boiling point of thc, and can get to it with a vaporizer, it is worth the time because you will be getting WAY MORE then you would be by smoking, and NO, if you go to 400f or even higher, it isn't the same as smoking, no where near it. When you smoke you BURN a lot of thc, as well as the flavor and also bring in burnt plant matter which creates other substaces. With a vaporizer you are essentially making your "smoke" more pure, and keeping non-psychoactive plant fibers behind. This is why people make hash. If you want to keep the flavor high at a high temperature just vape at around 396f until you see no more vapor as you will vape everything at once. If you vape at that temperature, and you still don't feel anything, and claim smoking tastes better, you must be superweedman, and only tons of hash will effect you.

The only reason why vaporizing doesn't work for some is they don't have a good vaporizer or don't know how to use one. Smoking requires no type of thinking, but you also lose a lot because of this.

 

[BudToaster]

just vape at around 396f until you see no more vapor as you will vape everything at once

just a quibble, but there is no vaporizer that can drive all the trichomes to this temperature at once ... just physically, the temperature of the herb will be a gradient -- it may reach this temp quickly, but not instantaneously -- so there will be a gradual release of a variety of cannabinoids as the herb climbs to this temperature.

 

[Truthman]

just a quibble, but there is no vaporizer that can drive all the trichomes to this temperature at once ... just physically, the temperature of the herb will be a gradient -- it may reach this temp quickly, but not instantaneously -- so there will be a gradual release of a variety of cannabinoids as the herb climbs to this temperature.

What I meant by that was, if he set his temperature to that number he would get all the essential oils, cbd, cbn, and thc within a few inhales as that number is close to what thc boils at efficiently(392f according to merck index). He claimed the taste was bad after a while so I gave him another way to keep the taste while boiling off damn near all the thc within a few inhales, to be similar to smoking. I didn't mean he would boil it off instantaneously, that is why I stated to vape until you see no more vapor. Good information though.

 

[brotherindica]

I'm not saying vaporizers don't work. Of course they do. And they certainly prevent carcinogenic contact with the lungs. I don't think they are, generally speaking, worth the time.



And it sounds like there's updated vaporizer research. Please, point me in the right direction.

I'd certainly look around the vape market. Loads of options.




Also, really consider your vaporizing temperature and your product.

THC vaporizes lower, around 390F, and easily too.

CBD/CBN start to partially vaporize at their respective boiling points, but don't fully vaporize until closer to their flash points. This is around 403F for CBD and around 415F for CBN.



Try vaping at a higher temperature, say 420-425F. I'd imagine you'd find this to give results similar to a smoking high.

 

[Truthman]

I'd certainly look around the vape market. Loads of options.




Also, really consider your vaporizing temperature and your product.

THC vaporizes lower, around 390F, and easily too.

CBD/CBN start to partially vaporize at their respective boiling points, but don't fully vaporize until closer to their flash points. This is around 403F for CBD and around 415F for CBN.



Try vaping at a higher temperature, say 420-425F. I'd imagine you'd find this to give results similar to a smoking high.

A flash point is when a substance can catch fire in the air, not something we want when vaporizing. A boiling point is what we want as it is the point a substance boils away into a gaseous phase.

CBN, and CBD boils efficiently at approximately 365f, and 374f according to the merck index. You would have to do a number of inhales though because the first round of heat hitting your herb will be used to decarboxylate these substances and the vapor will be mostly water vapor, and co2. The second round is where it would start to release the actual substances you want, which is another reason why vapor can be more potent then smoking, as smoking will have all these things bound up together which means your lungs will exhale most of it due to being so thick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE5LdCyN0aE
Flash Point Demonstration 1965