Vaporizing recommendations?

[immaculate]

What do you do on the go? Simply avoid medicating?

Until a vaporizer is released that has an efficient system for measuring and heating all of the cannabinoid and terpene content at a consistent temperature virtually instantly, I'm going to avoid them. It's fun to take on projects and create things - there's something super authentic in it - but at this point it seems the vape craze is more of a hobby than anything. My friend is holding on to my Volcano. It was in my closet for over a year. I pulled it out one night, felt cheated, and packed it up and gave it to my friend.

 

[Truthman]

What do you do on the go? Simply avoid medicating?

Until a vaporizer is released that has an efficient system for measuring and heating all of the cannabinoid and terpene content at a consistent temperature virtually instantly, I'm going to avoid them. It's fun to take on projects and create things - there's something super authentic in it - but at this point it seems the vape craze is more of a hobby than anything. My friend is holding on to my Volcano. It was in my closet for over a year. I pulled it out one night, felt cheated, and packed it up and gave it to my friend.

There are vaporizer that can do that, and you had one, the volcano, the rest was on you as it is with eating, and smoking, even though smoking needs way less thinking to do than eating or vaporizing. As far as being instantaneous, nothing does that. Smoking gives the illusion that it's doing that but other things are happening body wise. I suspect you just used the volcano wrong, and formed a negative opinion, about vaporizers, but it wasn't the volcano, it was your misuse. Have fun smoking, it's your life do what you want to do.

 

[BudToaster]

but at this point it seems the vape craze is more of a hobby than anything

i think this is due to the fact that drug paraphernalia is illegal under the law (USC 21). i hope this changes soon, particularly when medical mj is accepted and, god forbid (not), recreational mj.

i find it easier to manage my tolerance using my vape, in that i find using less is more effective. and smoking is no friend to asthma/copd.

vaping is just another way to enjoy the herb.

oh, yeah: "on the go". i never go anywhere so my desk vape is perfect.

 

[skullznroses]

I just did a two day test without meaning to.

I smoke BC bug dog (sp) today in bong. 1 fhat bowl to head.

I vape it yesterday all night at 184 dC

verdict-> much much more Fed up tonight. Last night I just go to bed feeling extra gravity. Tonight mean head buzz with teeth vibrating. Gotta keep vaping for health. gulp.

 

[immaculate]

There are vaporizer that can do that, and you had one, the volcano, the rest was on you as it is with eating, and smoking, even though smoking needs way less thinking to do than eating or vaporizing. As far as being instantaneous, nothing does that. Smoking gives the illusion that it's doing that but other things are happening body wise. I suspect you just used the volcano wrong, and formed a negative opinion, about vaporizers, but it wasn't the volcano, it was your misuse. Have fun smoking, it's your life do what you want to do.

I'll get it back and give it a go again. I always vaped at least 6-8 bags on settings 7-9.

 

[Truthman]

I'll get it back and give it a go again. I always vaped at least 6-8 bags on settings 7-9.

Did you grind up your bud real good, and didn't pack the bowl too tight so air can flow?. You just need enough to cover the screen, no more then that.

 

[Truthman]

mistake

 

[brotherindica]

A flash point is when a substance can catch fire in the air, not something we want when vaporizing. A boiling point is what we want as it is the point a substance boils away into a gaseous phase.

CBN, and CBD boils efficiently at approximately 365f, and 374f according to the merck index. You would have to do a number of inhales though because the first round of heat hitting your herb will be used to decarboxylate these substances and the vapor will be mostly water vapor, and co2. The second round is where it would start to release the actual substances you want, which is another reason why vapor can be more potent then smoking, as smoking will have all these things bound up together which means your lungs will exhale most of it due to being so thick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE5LdCyN0aE
Flash Point Demonstration 1965

Nice try.........







You need to compare boiling point and flash points.

THC 315F BP, 300F FP

CBD 320-356F BP, 402F FP

CBN 365F BP, 415F FP




Notice the discrepancy in BP/FP ratios in CBD & CDN compared to THC? This accounts for some of the decrease in bio-availability of CBD & CDN at lower vaporization temperatures.




So yes, there will be a difference in the result of your vapor from 396F to 415F-420F. Assuming the strain you vaporize has significant CBD & CBN to begin with. Combustion doesn't occur until 440-450F. Benzene starts to be released around 392F, so even @ 396F you still release benzene. Why not raise the temperature a bit higher a raise efficiency of extracted CBD & CBN? The goal is to absorb the highest % of cannabinoids possible, without combustion. Lower temp simply means you're missing out.

 

[Stonefree69]

You need to compare boiling point and flash points.

THC 315F BP, 300F FP

CBD 320-356F BP, 402F FP

CBN 365F BP, 415F FP

Good info brother. So w/vaping I'd say 400-420F to get a good overall high and effect. Is that 400F FP for THC? Unless it's in an undersea smoker or top of a mountain somewhere...

 

[Truthman]

Nice try.........







You need to compare boiling point and flash points.

THC 315F BP, 300F FP

CBD 320-356F BP, 402F FP

CBN 365F BP, 415F FP




Notice the discrepancy in BP/FP ratios in CBD & CDN compared to THC? This accounts for some of the decrease in bio-availability of CBD & CDN at lower vaporization temperatures.




So yes, there will be a difference in the result of your vapor from 396F to 415F-420F. Assuming the strain you vaporize has significant CBD & CBN to begin with. Combustion doesn't occur until 440-450F. Benzene starts to be released around 392F, so even @ 396F you still release benzene. Why not raise the temperature a bit higher a raise efficiency of extracted CBD & CBN? The goal is to absorb the highest % of cannabinoids possible, without combustion. Lower temp simply means you're missing out.

I don't understand what you don't get?. The flash point has nothing to do with the boiling point that we want. Go to themerckindex.chemfinder.com/ and look up the cannabinoids for yourself.

You are getting your numbers from someone who started posting those numbers around 2009 to cannabis sites, and people ran with it. I don't know where he got the numbers from but the fact that he list the flash points showed he wasn't doing something right. The flash point is usually lower then the boiling point, yet these numbers show the flash point higher then the boiling point. It makes no sense.

Please explain these numbers to me because I'm confused.

 

[Stonefree69]

I don't understand what you don't get?. The flash point has nothing to do with the boiling point that we want. Go to themerckindex.chemfinder.com/ and look up the cannabinoids for yourself.

You are getting your numbers from someone who started posting those numbers around 2009 to cannabis sites, and people ran with it. I don't know where he got the numbers from but the fact that he list the flash points showed he wasn't doing something right. The flash point is usually lower then the boiling point, yet these numbers show the flash point higher then the boiling point. It makes no sense.

Please explain these numbers to me because I'm confused.

Yeah I'm doing a search of boiling points of CBD and CBN and I get about as many conflicting numbers as Romney's balanced budget plan. I go high on the dial anyway, that's where medication kicks in anyways, not just a head high.

 

[Mia]

One complaint I have with the cloud is the sloooow warm up time.
Seems like the damn thing takes twenty to thirty minutes to get to operating temp, with automatic shut off after an hour, I don't like the math. When I want to vape, I hate waiting.
Oh well.

 

[brotherindica]

Good info brother. So w/vaping I'd say 400-420F to get a good overall high and effect. Is that 400F FP for THC? Unless it's in an undersea smoker or top of a mountain somewhere...

Anytime SF,


I said 300F flash point for THC, not 400F.

I don't understand what you don't get?. The flash point has nothing to do with the boiling point that we want. Go to themerckindex.chemfinder.com/ and look up the cannabinoids for yourself.

You are getting your numbers from someone who started posting those numbers around 2009 to cannabis sites, and people ran with it. I don't know where he got the numbers from but the fact that he list the flash points showed he wasn't doing something right. The flash point is usually lower then the boiling point, yet these numbers show the flash point higher then the boiling point. It makes no sense.

Please explain these numbers to me because I'm confused.

I looked briefly, ChemINDEX and ChemSpider both verify what I posted. The Merck Index is good, but it isn't free and I won't have access until tomorrow or Monday.



Both the BP and FP are important when trying to calculate vaporization temperature. THC will vape 1st and easier then CBD and CBN. Raising the vaporiztion temperature closer to the FP will increase the amount of CBD & CBN in your vapor.




To keep a long story short, I was enlightened by several biochemist friends, a few years back. People doing things I often have difficulty simply understanding..........just being honest. Scary smart people.


I would often bitch to those people about the inefficient, SLOW, and unsatisfying nature of vaping back then. I know now those vape temperatures were ~ 360-390.

"Why vape when I only get a head buzz, can't get a body high, still have pain, and don't notice any increase in appetite" - is something I would have/did say frequently back then. Well, my friends explained that I simply wasn't activating the portion of cannabinoids I desired.



"Why don't you go around 420F? **Laughs**....Might as well get everything and not burn, right?" - that comment has gotten my friend to try a BOAT load of vapor since that day.





Feel free to keep doing what you're doing. Vape @ 300F, 350F, 396F........whatever makes you happy. Just trying to offer some insight I didn't have myself at the time.........

One complaint I have with the cloud is the sloooow warm up time.
Seems like the damn thing takes twenty to thirty minutes to get to operating temp, with automatic shut off after an hour, I don't like the math. When I want to vape, I hate waiting.
Oh well.

Yup! One of the Cloud's biggest downsides.


I've tried heating it up in several places, with varying temperatures. 5-10F warmer ambient temperature definitely makes, but only a couple minutes. At best it takes a solid 15 minutes, usually a good 20 minutes.


Wish that time issue could be decreased w/the unit.

 

[Truthman]

Anytime SF,


I said 300F flash point for THC, not 400F.




I looked briefly, ChemINDEX and ChemSpider both verify what I posted. The Merck Index is good, but it isn't free and I won't have access until tomorrow or Monday.



Both the BP and FP are important when trying to calculate vaporization temperature. THC will vape 1st and easier then CBD and CBN. Raising the vaporiztion temperature closer to the FP will increase the amount of CBD & CBN in your vapor.




To keep a long story short, I was enlightened by several biochemist friends, a few years back. People doing things I often have difficulty simply understanding..........just being honest. Scary smart people.


I would often bitch to those people about the inefficient, SLOW, and unsatisfying nature of vaping back then. I know now those vape temperatures were ~ 360-390.

"Why vape when I only get a head buzz, can't get a body high, still have pain, and don't notice any increase in appetite" - is something I would have/did say frequently back then. Well, my friends explained that I simply wasn't activating the portion of cannabinoids I desired.



"Why don't you go around 420F? **Laughs**....Might as well get everything and not burn, right?" - that comment has gotten my friend to try a BOAT load of vapor since that day.





Feel free to keep doing what you're doing. Vape @ 300F, 350F, 396F........whatever makes you happy. Just trying to offer some insight I didn't have myself at the time.........





Yup! One of the Cloud's biggest downsides.


I've tried heating it up in several places, with varying temperatures. 5-10F warmer ambient temperature definitely makes, but only a couple minutes. At best it takes a solid 15 minutes, usually a good 20 minutes.


Wish that time issue could be decreased w/the unit.

Meckindex is free. I gave you the link to use. Also, on the sites you mentioned they show the boiling point to be much higher then what you posted, so the numbers are different from the two websites. Since Dr. Hornby did that study, and found that cbd and cbn were in the vapo at 396f within 6 bags, I would say the merck index is correct. He found cbn was in the vapor at 374f which is exactly the boiling point the merck index states, but cbd and thc wasn't which goes along with the merck index. Also, the THC boiling point was 390.4c on chemindex which I doubt is true because that means it would be 734f. Even if you were to say that the flash point temperature is what you want, it would be 300f and we know that isn't right because it would mean people who make baked edibles wouldn't even get high as most of the thc would boil away as baking usually is done at 350f-375f.

http://www.rollitup.org/medicating/393439-preliminary-experiments-volcano-tempature-setting.html

"The boiling points of the three cannabinoids measured are as follows:

THC 200 C
CBD 190 C
CBN 185 C

We can see from our before and after sample, that CBN is virtually all gone at setting 6, leaving
only residual amounts. The THC, however, all remains at this setting. As does the CBD.
At setting 7.5 the THC is fully de-carboxylated, but still present to roughly 95% of its original value.
Interestingly, at this setting the CBD is only half de-carboxylated.

At setting 9, all three are fully de-carboxylated and have moved to the vapor state.
A small amount of CBD remains as does some THC.

So we did another experiment to six bags and behold, all is gone.
THC acid, converted THC, CBN and CBD, all gone skyward.
This is at Volcano setting 7 and six bags were taken.
So between 2 bags, where virtually all the THC is still present,
and bag six the THC is being boiled off. To 2 bags it's all
terpenes and aromatics.

Suppose, we will have to narrow it down, to see if there is
one bag where the THC, fly's, at setting 7. Bet it's bag 4.
We'll see...
We ran another experiment with the Volcano. This time we collected 6 bgas at setting 6.
This just doesn't move the THC into the bag, only decarboxylating about 20% but not boiling
any off. Its aroma therapy at setting 6, very little, if any, active THC is delivered.
Of course at this setting you will be blowing off the terepenes and other lower molecular weight
aromatics, that do, indeed, have psychoactive properties. Incidently, these compounds, termed
the essential oils, have been banned, as long as the plant. It's my notion that the euphoric part
of the cannabis experience is a result of the essential oils and not THC.

Level 4 experiments were conducted the same as for level 3. With the same amount of cannabis (0.3 g) being processed and bags collected in the same time period. Level 4 is no more exciting in terms of lifting the THC to the vapor state and is simply a continuation of efficient decarboxylation of the THC-A to active delta-9 THC.
Once again a bag 3 greater than 90% of the THC is activated, and less than 1%, blown off. Therefore breathing the vapors collected at bag 3, level 4, is at best aroma therapy, with very little active THC being delivered.

Now we go to level 8. Immediately, at bag 1 all the THC is decarboxylated and roughly two thirds delivered.
And at bag 3 80% of the activated THC is gone. So once again we make the observation that a level setting of 7.5, or above, is required for 3 bags to deliver activated THC. Lower settings, indeed deliver active medicine in the form of terpenes and aromatics, essential oils long know for therapeutic properties. I have often thought this is where the euphoric experience of cannabis lies in these, also prohibited, oils."



From the way it sounds, it seems like the flash point is being used to show a temperature when some cannabinoids are released, and to use that temperature, but you will be leaving a shitload behind if you go by that. Remember the flash point is just how much of the substances is in the air that can ignite once a flame is applied to it, but we want WAY MORE THEN THAT when we vaporize, and we aren't igniting anything. I still don't get why the flash point is being mentioned in these numbers.


Here is another study that coincides with what dr.hornby found. http://stash.norml.org/new-study-examines-cannabis-vaporization

Look at the graph and notice barely any thc is boiled off at 180c(356f) and more is released the higher the temperature, which can explain why more bags is needed when you stay in the 7.5-8 range on the volcano, then the 230c range.

Notice how vaporizing gets you more cannabinoids as smoking yet more cleaner which means more potent as you are leaving a lot of unwanted substances behind.

This shows how less herb in the bowl gives more cannabinoids released, and it's most likely due to more hot air coming into contact with the herb and extracting more.

 

[Stonefree69]

215C and 230C are 419F and 446F. 446F is just 5 degrees short of combustion. Looks like ya gotta floor it on the on-ramp to get on the Autobahn highway!

And as far as combustion taking place right at 451F: "Older textbooks report a range of numbers for the auto-ignition point of paper, from the high 440s to the low 450s, but more recent experiments suggest it’s about 30 degrees hotter than that. By comparison, the auto-ignition temperature of gasoline is 536 degrees, and the temperature for charcoal is 660 degrees.

It would take a few minutes for a sheet of paper to burst into flames upon being placed in a 480-degree oven, and much longer than that for a thick book. The dense material in the center of a book would shunt heat away from the outside edges, preventing them from reaching the auto-ignition temperature. This is also why it takes so long for a campfire to reduce a log to ashes." From - http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...r_really_burn_at_451_degrees_fahrenheit_.html

So, 480F is about 249C. Maybe I'll name a new vape "Farenheit 451" or 230C.

 

[Truthman]

215C and 230C are 419F and 446F. 446F is just 5 degrees short of combustion. Looks like ya gotta floor it on the on-ramp to get on the Autobahn highway!

Not necessarily. Notice how Dr.hornby showed that damn near all of the thc was boiled off at 7.5 with six bags, and that is probably around 405c. This is a good thing as it means you can sit back and get a consistent flow of thc like smoking on a joint if you're using a whip, and it is far away from 451f. At the 8 setting it is even quicker with 3 bags while still being a nice temperature away from 451.

 

[brotherindica]

Meckindex is free. I gave you the link to use. Also, on the sites you mentioned they show the boiling point to be much higher then what you posted, so the numbers are different from the two websites. Since Dr. Hornby did that study, and found that cbd and cbn were in the vapo at 396f within 6 bags, I would say the merck index is correct. He found cbn was in the vapor at 374f which is exactly the boiling point the merck index states, but cbd and thc wasn't which goes along with the merck index. Also, the THC boiling point was 390.4c on chemindex which I doubt is true because that means it would be 734f. Even if you were to say that the flash point temperature is what you want, it would be 300f and we know that isn't right because it would mean people who make baked edibles wouldn't even get high as most of the thc would boil away as baking usually is done at 350f-375f.

The complete Merck Index is not free and requires a subscription.






You failed to compare the atmospheric pressure when comparing the boiling points listed on ChemINDEX and ChemSpider.

You mention it @ 760mmHg.........much different then the boiling points @ 0.02mmHg we HAVE been talking about.






WHEN did edibles get brought in to this mix? Vaporization and decarboxylation are two entirely different topics...........

Baking is best done at a lower temperature SO you don't accidentally vaporize your baked product. 350F I can handle, but I would never bake @ 375F. You are likely loosing vapor @ this temperature, oven/set-up dependent.





Yes, 300F is low, but studies have shown trace THC starts to become available in vapor as low as 284F. McPartland, Russo, "Cannabis and Cannabis Extracts: Greater Than the Sum of Their Parts?" So yes, the flash point is a valid concern.







Lastly, I wouldn't trust too much from Dr. Hornby. His studies appear to be about as valid as his grow products.











WELLLLL folks, this has been FUN!!! Sorry, but real life calls and I'm all out of energy for this thread.



Carry on boys, carry on.........

 

[Truthman]

The complete Merck Index is not free and requires a subscription.






You failed to compare the atmospheric pressure when comparing the boiling points listed on ChemINDEX and ChemSpider.

You mention it @ 760mmHg.........much different then the boiling points @ 0.02mmHg we HAVE been talking about.






WHEN did edibles get brought in to this mix? Vaporization and decarboxylation are two entirely different topics...........

Baking is best done at a lower temperature SO you don't accidentally vaporize your baked product. 350F I can handle, but I would never bake @ 375F. You are likely loosing vapor @ this temperature, oven/set-up dependent.





Yes, 300F is low, but studies have shown trace THC starts to become available in vapor as low as 284F. McPartland, Russo, "Cannabis and Cannabis Extracts: Greater Than the Sum of Their Parts?" So yes, the flash point is a valid concern.







Lastly, I wouldn't trust too much from Dr. Hornby. His studies appear to be about as valid as his grow products.











WELLLLL folks, this has been FUN!!! Sorry, but real life calls and I'm all out of energy for this thread.



Carry on boys, carry on.........

If you wanted to look at the bp on merck index it is free. I gave you the link.

Even if you don't trust Dr.Hornby, the other study was performed by a university in the Netherlands and they found the same thing.

I agree trace amounts will be released, BUT why would you want TRACES when you can have it ALL with just knowing the right temperature. The information is there for us why not use it? When you know the right temps, you can manipulate how you use the herb to keep as most essential oils as you want from burning so no benzene or other substances are created, at least too much, as well as go high in temperature to release all of the cannabinoids and still get some good taste. With hash/oil this is different as you can raise the temperature in increments, and go real high to get all of the cannabinoids without worry about taste as it doesn't have cellulose to add a bad taste once it gets near 400f

 

[BudToaster]

Wish that time issue could be decreased w/the unit

it needs a power supply that can deliver more current.

the Bud Toaster does 60°F to 380°F in 20 seconds by pulling 12 amps from the A123Systems cells. An AC power supply delivering 12 amps is big and expensive.

 

[Mia]

12 amps is no joke. Me likey.