Tom Hill Haze

[Nexus7]

@Hammerhead

Let's face it Sam says a lot of contradictory things about the OHz ...

Iirc he states he tried to "save OHz" rather than stabilizing it.

 

[@hempy]

That's what's printed. I'm not claiming OH is stabilized lol. You had claimed herms were not common back then. Ive already posted my opinions on how unstable genetics were back then. OH made by Sam happened in 1978ish?. This is about how unstable genetics were. Obviously OH is still unstable.

The site is freaking out on me.

You can only post and share your experiences hammer and they were not my experiences or those of many people i knew that grew here in the 70s/80s/90s.

You need to remember Haze was and always will be a Hybrid Hammer and as a result its going to be all over the place unless you selectively inbreed it. You cant compare a Land Race / Heirloom variety to that of a Hybrid or should you.

Yes Haze is a hybrid yes it was all over the place but that dont mean with the right selection and combination you cant stabilize or even isolate the different types.

 

[MadMac]

It just faster and looks and smells nice, it doesn't get you higher,
or are the highs as pleasing, shorter-lived, and often leaving one deflated and a bit worn out afterward...

YES... marketing...
sell the illusion that it is the best and many will tell after it is the best...
the masses are like sheep's... they need someone or something that tell them what to do, to think and believe... if not they are lost...
it's crazy but that's how it is worldwide...
a reason why i'll work all my life independent on my own...
after school i'll understood how this fucking banking system and capitalism works:
you buy things you don't need, with money you don't have, to impress people you don't like.
so instead i'll chose:
don't dream your life, live your dream...
if you don’t build your dream, someone else will hire you to build theirs.

this is my dream ;-) ... OHz Golli .. best pheno
and my fav boy... just for da record how it looks..

keep it green ;-)
M.

 

[Donald Mallard]

I think some of the best photographic historical pictures of the types of cannabis many of us older growers saw grew and smoked comes from Mel Frank.

I have yet to see him post any hermaphrodite so i am a bit confused why a few of you think all old land race / heirloom variety's were hermaphrodites or prone to.

Chiba Colombian 1980.

Purple Mexican 1980

Cambodian 1979

Cambodian 1978
View attachment 18839269
View attachment 18839270

Imported Thai sticks (for those who've never seen them), San Francisco, 1978.
View attachment 18839271

those photos are pretty ,
but really mean nothing in the conversation of hermies in landrace strains ,
you are in the minority here with your claims ,
everyone else has seen the opposite to what you are reporting ,
myself included ,
and when i grew , i tended to grow quite a lot , so i got a fairly good view of what was in the genetics ,
particularly thai , a third were often hermie , the other 2 thirds male and female ,
you claim either you or your mate also saw this ,
but then say there isnt many hermies , because you had only cracked 3 seeds ,
some of us did a lot more than 3 and had to weed out 30% of our plants due to unsuitable ones ,

its obviously because they were pollinated from hermie plants too ,
growers usually dont leave males in their grow , they are culled ,
if they want to make seed , they make a seperate area to do so , or buy them , etc ,
that is what the thai people did according to sam , but reverted to using some from the field ,
which increased the incidence of hermies in the next generations through those few seeds collected and grown ...
the last lot of south east asian stuff i grew was Laos ,
the females seemed ok , but the males grew female parts in time ,
as my friend Moon described, they were sexually fluidic ,
like some of the men of the same area , effeminate and ladyboys are not uncommon,
even in the people ...

 

[harvestreaper]

Y chromosome has less DNA then an X chromosome but X chromosomes contain all the information to make male sex organs which is why XX plants can be reversed. It's not a mutation, just an epigenetic/genomorphological change.

thanks again but still not grasping it hammer beat me to it v, as males can reverse also??

 

[harvestreaper]

YES... marketing...
sell the illusion that it is the best and many will tell after it is the best...
the masses are like sheep's... they need someone or something that tell them what to do, to think and believe... if not they are lost...
it's crazy but that's how it is worldwide...
a reason why i'll work all my life independent on my own...
after school i'll understood how this fucking banking system and capitalism works:
you buy things you don't need, with money you don't have, to impress people you don't like.
so instead i'll chose:
don't dream your life, live your dream...
if you don’t build your dream, someone else will hire you to build theirs.

View attachment 18839311
this is my dream ;-) ... OHz Golli .. best pheno
and my fav boy... just for da record how it looks..
View attachment 18839312
keep it green ;-)
M.

looks like a good yeilder that golli

 

[@hempy]

those photos are pretty ,
but really mean nothing in the conversation of hermies in landrace strains ,
you are in the minority here with your claims ,
everyone else has seen the opposite to what you are reporting ,
myself included ,
and when i grew , i tended to grow quite a lot , so i got a fairly good view of what was in the genetics ,
particularly thai , a third were often hermie , the other 2 thirds male and female ,
you claim either you or your mate also saw this ,
but then say there isnt many hermies , because you had only cracked 3 seeds ,
some of us did a lot more than 3 and had to weed out 30% of our plants due to unsuitable ones ,

its obviously because they were pollinated from hermie plants too ,
growers usually dont leave males in their grow , they are culled ,
if they want to make seed , they make a seperate area to do so , or buy them , etc ,
that is what the thai people did according to sam , but reverted to using some from the field ,
which increased the incidence of hermies in the next generations through those few seeds collected and grown ...
the last lot of south east asian stuff i grew was Laos ,
the females seemed ok , but the males grew female parts in time ,
as my friend Moon described, they were sexually fluidic ,
like some of the men of the same area , effeminate and ladyboys are not uncommon,
even in the people ...

Mel Franks pictures of Land Race / Heirloom variety's show stable non hermaphrodite lines being grown back in the 70s so how do you even argue that but were there is a way you will find it right.

I dont care what you saw or did i know what i grew and what i saw arguing i am wrong is childish you were not there were you. And No not a friend but friends and some family many people more than one.

Growers dont keep males in there grow unless they plan to make seed or they dont spot them and dont pull the males in time and when you have 50.000 plants spotting all the males in time is not often achievable is it.

Back in the day 50.000 plants was not unheard off even here for a grow and i would not be surprised if they had even larger plant numbered grows.

then say there isnt many hermies , because you had only cracked 3 seeds ,
some of us did a lot more than 3 and had to weed out 30% of our plants due to unsuitable ones ,

What three seeds did i germinate lol

The Guy that found seed in the 1978 imported Thai stick found 3 seed not me you clearly making this up as you go mate.

The first Thai seeds i got came from older growers so they were from here early to mid 70s or before i never from memory found any Thai seed in a Thai stick.

I did my own breeding and seed runs to reproduce what i was given so i had seed as i am sure you and others did.

I even had a close friend collect the best Thai he could find in 85/86 and he got his close friend (and dealer he scored from ) in Thailand on his monthly work trips to Thailand to hunt them down for us. I was given then in 86.

That was called Golden Buddha Thai the Thai guy called it that i then grew that one out and breed a shit load of seed and shared it with the guy that collected it for me his circle and my circle. No hermaphrodites in that line also.

We had no seed banks back then we made seed if we wanted to keep set lines around.

I grew quiet a few Thai lines,

 

[Donald Mallard]

hempy you cant cherry pick quotes mate ,
you missed a line out of what you quoted there ,
thats not really accurate now is it ,
you must work for the sunday mail or something hehehe ...
i didnt say exactly what you have quoted ,, quote the whole sentence ,
or dont quote at all ...


good growers remove the males ,, yes there still can be seeds ,
they come from hermies ... or maybe a male that shoot of some pollen before he was culled ..
thousands of plants , its still doable ...

lastly ask mel frank to show some hermie pictures and he will ,
that is not what he was taking pictures of so u dont see them ,
your idea that what he has photographed and shown proves anything is ridiculous,
why not ask him ?? im sure he can tell you rather than u guessing ...

 

[@hempy]

I dont cherry pick or do i claim to know what you did or what you saw as i was not there.

I would appreciate it if you stuck to describing your own experiences and not claim to know what i saw or experienced.

I dont know why you continue to try to discredit any thing i share.

This is only part of one Grow in Thailand in 1978 large grows were normal back then there and here and in many other locations. It would be very easy to miss male plants and even a hermaphrodite before it let pollen fly thats a fact.

 

[Donald Mallard]

and when i grew , i tended to grow quite a lot , so i got a fairly good view of what was in the genetics ,
particularly thai , a third were often hermie , the other 2 thirds male and female ,
you claim either you or your mate also saw this ,

I dont cherry pick or do i claim to know what you did or what you saw as i was not there.

I would appreciate it if you stuck to describing your own experiences and not claim to know what i saw or experienced.

I dont know why you continue to try to discredit any thing i share.

This is only part of one Grow in Thailand in 1978 large grows were normal back then there and here and in many other locations. It would be very easy to miss male plants and even a hermaphrodite before it let pollen fly thats a fact.

View attachment 18839356

as u can see above , i did mention what you said about your mate ,
though it isnt exactly what you said years ago , it is what u said recently , and i said the same ,
you misquoted me ... in order to try to discredit what i say ,
then say im discrediting you ,,
attention grabber ,
this is the last time in this thread i will address you ,
and its for the sake of accuracy ..

i know you dont garden for a living , i do and have ,
so its no effort to find all the males in a patch that size ,
not at all ,, u have all day to look up and down the rows ,
in thailand there was probably half a dozen guys doing it ,
i can assure u , they probably got all the males in time ,
its possible the odd male let out a little pollen early ,
the rest is from male flowers on females ...

 

[CannaT]

The best cannais highs I've had since 1977 have been Thai sticks, an unknown purple sativa a friend grew, some laughing grass from the 80 (a hermie), and some Laos I had about 5 yeas ago that was like Thai stick. Hazes come close to these experiences.

I love modern varieties too, inclung indicas, crosses etc, but they don't have a high I prefer. I love hazes as well and grow them. However, despite all the science and breeding that CannaT points out, I dont unerstand why the best high I've had in recent times came from a third world country. I dont see US breeding as the pinacle of cannabis at all. I am in a minority though, and this is personal taste rather than the norm. Interesting discussion.

I think its more about tolerance build up than anything else.

But also in nature you can find combo of terps and cannabinoides that is very rear or unexisting in modern strains cuz humans find it undesirable.
So maybe its this.

For example while smoking only Jack through day at night I cant sleep Im not heavy or sleepy at all. Than I find out that just a few drops of hemp extract which is diluated BHO in ratio 1:10 in olive oil on tongue which is about 7% cbd and around 0.6% thc while smoking Jack completly change its high...it become so stony at night that I always forgot when I went to sleep. And I sleep with that combo like I smoked White Rhino or something like that.

 

[bonghopper]

I'm sure many in these threads agree wholeheartedly with you Chi ,
what I think has gone wrong is the folly of chasing the highest THC ,
all the stuff we older folks enjoyed didn't have half the thc of some of these modern varieties,
but we found them to be much more pleasing,

personally, i haven't found the more modern stuff to be better,
It just faster and looks and smells nice, it doesn't get you higher,
or are the highs as pleasing, shorter-lived, and often leaving one deflated and a bit worn out afterward...

Have had that realisation the past few seasons, what are your go to strains for positive effect?

 

[ICGA]

thanks again but still not grasping it hammer beat me to it v, as males can reverse also??

Males have an x chromosome. So yes

 

[bigherb]

It's not a few of us hempy.. You would be in the minority regarding the topic of herms in cannabis. Sam started with unstable genetics when making OH. I can't make you understand that. Seeds were common in cannabis 50 years ago

Brother you post some Great content

But also
A lot of
Bullshit about Haze


I’d Encourage All new Readers at IC don’t believe any post from Hammer about The Original Haze History

Sams post below

I have not worked Original Haze as much as tried to save it, I collected as much seed as I could in the early 70's grew them and did free pollinations and did minimal selection to ensure I saved as many genes as I could. That was in the 70's & 80's now I have clones for the last 20 years. My O Haze is not done being worked on that is why I tell people to use it as breeding materials.

-SamS

1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

From what Ive read Sam stabilized the seeds he got from the Haze brothers with Robert Clark's help. The original seeds were extremely unstable. he used his stabilized OH to make his outcrosses.
I tagged Sam hoping he would confirm..He had to have his version of OH to breed with after he stabilized it..

As Sam himself acknowledged some years later, the strain created by the Haze Brothers was rather difficult to tame. Given its poor stability, the easiest things turned into incredibly challenging tasks. One of the first phenos to appear was Purple Haze, an amazing strain that also obtained global recognition and still today is remembered as a legend. However, Sam was determined to stabilize it and he most certainly did it. For doing so, he collaborated with Robert Clarke from Sacred Seeds. No sooner did they get to work than they noticed that the more they tried to improve the quality of Haze, the less vigorous it became and thus the poorer the quality ended up being. But, after a while, they finally realized that the best plants were the ones derived from the cross of a Haze and another strain they'd previously worked with, being Haze the one that added the extra touch of quality to the cross. It wasn't until 1976, though, that Sam and Robert decided to start selling the seeds of what we now call Original Haze: a 100 % sativa hybrid very much appreciated by cannabis growers and users alike. No wonder most of them ended up worshipping this strain. The incredible scent of spices accented by subtle notes of incense, wood, and citrus that Skunkman and Co. managed to provide it with was indeed very special. But, if there was one thing that seduced cannabis smokers, apart from the taste, it was its mind-blowing effect capable of driving you into a psychedelic state of mind from which it took long to escape.

I already posted this a few pages back. Is it true who knows without @Sam_Skunkman to verify..

It doesn't change how unstable genetics were back then

Stop Posting False information about Original Haze

 

[bigherb]

Sam created stabilized OH.. He started with UNSTABLE genetics from the Haze brothers. We all start with someone's seeds.

Why are you Telling Lies

This is false information


I’m not Trolling but I’m Pissed , multiple post of false information

IC is the last home of the Real . The Brst source of Cannabis Related information online .

It is All of our obligation, seniors OG’s to Provide our experiences and state it as our experiences.

But Number one to provide the Best most accurate information possible. How about Quoting our Sources or a references first Hand
Rather than from new breeders/ Seed companies and folk with no knowledge or interest in the Truth

1luvbigherb

 

[Raco]

Just a couple of mini-hermie accidents with Thai genetics involved
I picked a Destroyer male in 2003.I used him in several crosses.Revegged him and in 2004 gave him to Kaiki.I kept a few clones and Kaiki told me that he used that male as the father of the regular Destroyer Seed.
All this was before feminized Seed.
Some friends of mine(also friends with Kaiki)came home , picked pollen and made a few Destroyer x Destroyer seeds.
We sent some to @Bacchus.He got a tall girl that threw a couple nanners and pollinated the ECSD aside.He called It "the fence climber" lol
He found 4 seeds and sent them to me along with a couple of ECSD cuts.
I started them and got one female.2 were inmature imo and the other didn't germinate.
I grew the plant indoors, took a couple cuts and flowered her also indoors
Just one bud

It reeked of gasoline or something lol and was potent...and I mean potent.Didn't hermie
The 2 cuts were grown outdoors in 50 l. buckets and produced some very,very strong potent tasty herb.
In one of them we found 6 mature seeds!
We started them all and got 6 females that were grown indoors.
No hermies. Very good herb

I have to go now...be back later

 

[CannaT]

That discussion wasn't about breeding with herms. I already mentioned this. I was thinking out loud to invoke any discussion if hermaphroditism had/has anything to do with the high quality of cannabis when stabilizing because of more genetic code. Many of the old school clones still alive today came from herm pollinations. We def don't see that kind of quality often. It's not just Haze but all good weed is the same high type. There are excellent examples but still missing a specific chemical makeup.

The other more likely cause was breeding away from chemotypes in fav of THC. This prob had more impact on the high and chemical composition that's missing. THC is important but not to the degree it's gone to. The quality of the THC also matters. Most weed has dry Tricombs with little stickiness or none. Our bags were coated with resin from the flowers long ago. The bags had to be peeled open. Today's weed is basically the same high with different names. Who makes their purchase on the high type?. No one gets to sample before buying, It's all about how it looks.

Anyway IMO, talking about what was bred out hopefully helps us breed it back in. Anything else that comes to mind that caused the quality shift is of interest.

I dont know man my weed whatever I grow is sticky as hell for months...Only thing that was dry were CBG genetics and saw this 1st time in my life. Even CBD hemp plants are extremly sticky.

 

[Piff_cat]

check out this nigerian plant from the 96 hillig study. the hawaiians in this study were the real sleepers lots of grinspoon types. many peeps report finding grinspoon types consistently in oaxacans especially older ones like mystic funk. this particular nigerian was part of an outlier group in the hillig study containing only colombians, south africa(transkei,zimbabwe, etc) these weird type plants also showed up in the 87 mazar nev donated to this study.

i agree that this type has a "survival" relationship with gender wherin a male plant will seed itself towards the end of its life.

and i think it could even happen in the beginning too-
i started 20 outback haze outcrosses(north vietnam) but flipped them in 2 groups 10 days apart.

the first 10 sexed as 9 males and 1 female
while the second group 8 females 2 males
. a small sample size for sure but it made me think the plants sexing in second round sensed the males presence and sexed as females.
adding to the intrigue i kept one of the 2 males from the second round because it was so beautiful nld... this plant ends up seeding itself with the same wild type seeds u see in this pic .
thats a big hint there- outback vietnam seeds were normal type no carnuckle did not seed shatter normal size. but when the monoceious outbackvietnam male seeded itself in f1 gen, it created wild type seeds very small, finished in open air then shattered and formed in the grinspoon type fashion.

to me it looks like there are more primal jungle types still under immense instinct from the wild which conditions have not changed much ever. they have tons of upside but this monoceious tendencies make sensimilla difficult and hybrids sex stability unpredictable. also alot of diversity is lost when these monceious male types are culled. so much diversity has been thrown away in pursuit of stable genetics. in my opinion females who show bananas should be culled. but males with female features should be bred with. the male input has the possibility of adding diversity, and if u want resin males etc the ones with the female features would have the most! worry about female stability only when it comes to selection of the production clones. i have a couple piff s2 x tom hill/old timers males going right now that smell like heaven better then most female bud ive grown!
we are finding huge chunks of diversity only carried forward in the male genomes and that semi feral lilnes have significantly larger genomes then domesticated types.

View attachment niger.jpg View attachment af7.jpg View attachment hawkal.jpg

 

[Raco]

Hermie-free ECSD x Destroyer S1s

Destroyer has a lot of Miao Thai in It...some call It Kaiki's Haze! lol...It also has mexican Verde Limón from Michoacán and a colombian.
Tom said in this thread that Destroyer has skunk in It .I highly doubt about that

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