Tom Hill Haze

[funkyhorse]

Male Herms ?

What is this stock or source of
Seedsman 2021 Haze ?


1luvbigherb

Hi there bigherb
The source of my 21 males was one male from a Seedsman Hz original pack and the rest from MadMac
19 of them went intersex including the one from the original pack
I outcrossed all males and they made seed on themselves which I still keep
I sprouted some of this seed and the progeny seems to be sexually firm, I just sprouted a few seed to check

The progeny they made with the ohz girls was sexually firm but a lot of mutations and lack of vigour
The outcrosses ohz with landraces were the best, I didnt like the progeny of indicas x ohz, not my kind of weed

I found intersex in many southeast asians: Manipuri, Highland Laos, Gypsy Luang Prabang, Northern Thailand 2008, Ace Seeds Thai to add to the lines mentioned before

In general I found the girls going intersex in beginning and mid flowering
It is important to mention that they all intersexed the same way and at least in my environment, they dont make bananas
This is how southeast asians intersex:

This is the only trait I found so far for intersex. Only one plant which was a Northern Thai 2008 x Seedsman Hz did this flowering and remained firm, all the rest developed male flowers. I know when I see this flowering I have to watch that plant very closely
This is how it looks

This is the trait

For me it is an interesting subject. The progeny of intersex plants outcrossed gave me firm progeny and some of them are exceptional. The home made thai haze keeper is done with a thai girl that made a male branch. It is also interesting to note that Northern Thai x Seedsman Hz is not as good as Seedsman Hz x Northern Thai. Why is this I dont know
Have a nice weekend everyone

 

[acespicoli]

Nature is what we think of as pre-wiring and is influenced by genetic inheritance and other biological factors. Nurture is generally taken as the influence of external factors after conception, e.g., the product of exposure, life experiences, and learning on an individual.

We take nature and
nurture out a desirable type to our tastes

Chemotypes. A chemotype describes the subspecies of a plant that have the same morphological characteristics (relating to form and structure) but produce different quantities of chemical components in their essential oils.

To me when humans get involved in nature is it for nature or to nuture?

Naturally a hermie is a true female to start....
That female due to un natural circumstances will at times prduce male flowers when the normal life cycle is disrupted... imagine a wild cannabis plant at the edge of its range that is female and near the end is unable to produce seed for lack of a male plant....that female at the edge is of a different population than the one the hermi pollen may fertilize miles away... a selfing and possibly a hybrid of sorts correct? From one population to the next that gives rise to very unique chemotypes... just 3 generations of different climatic conditions may alter a phenotype? lets say....now take that 5% or less of amazing type of ripper haze.... think if we have a f1 hybrid with two allele we are likley to get 25 50 25% mother father mix with mandel genetic inheritance....the % becomes more lop sided or maybe even lost if you are talking dominant or recessive trait or poly hybrids etc x x ....and which way you breed it to yield flower time terpene effect .... like sam and donald said 1000s plants grown for the rare phenotype keepers... for skunk they grew 1000s and kept what 7 plants and stacked the genes from there.... ribl

Why is it haze has <5% rippers 1 seed in 20 if your lucky maybe less the potency is the random factor that resists ibl true breeding

Wis it that in a run of 10 you lose phenos if you select and not OP every one of them?

Does a hermi female carry more gene data on the hermi side than the female side there was a dna read done on a male a female and a reversed female cannabis plant. Obviously the male or female dna differes in flower forming but is there more to it.

Not only the female pollenated by a male but the reversed female hermi pollen is a cross?

Does selfing differ from outcrossing?
What are the plus and minus?

Always wondered why it was recommended as a outcrosser?

A female recipient of a outcross hermi adds fertility to subsuquint crops this is well documented... take away a few late forming of a few banannas during a female past finished is not hurting the gene pool. IMO
This is how its worked for 1000s years in weed/crop complexes of cannabis.
Males in wild x hermi in domesticated sensi, that was a good point donald made.

Hempy makes some excellent points about traditional breeding and why we have always done it a certain way.

Its a very unnatural thing to take a female plant and expect her to finish without seed?

What is the entire purpose in wild?
Does nature know best or us?
If all we do is nurture...what is the cost?

Great duscussion Best
Hope to bring haze back huge in the next age of cannabis enlightenment and freedom with all these new genetic resources its a very exciting time.

 

[windmills]

I can tell you this, as a practical producer and breeder, no way am I going to facilitate or keep hermi's in my garden. The end result can only be disastrous in the short term. And, I am not in this for any long term - survival of the species - game. The plant was doing just fine with that before I ever arrived. Anyone who has ever chucked knows that seeds dramatically change a lot of the makeup of the end product. If you want seeds, that can be desirable, but if not, not much. They change where the plant is putting its energy, and it's chemical composition. Having done this a significant amount of time I am not interested in wasting my time. If someone wants to keep or, crazier yet, introduce hermi's into their end game, that is up to them. Personally, I avoid them always, like the plague. And do whatever I need to and what's best so to not create any anew. I want to limit unnecessary and undesirable surprises.

 

[Raco]

@windmills
You mentioned " chocolate colombian"
I have never seen that...
Choco chiba...?
I think its Chocó...a región of Colombia...but I can be wrong....

 

[Ur Humbl Nr8tor]

how many you got ur humbl ?

4 from the last half pack. The fifth split shell but just wasn’t having it.

 

[Raco]

CBF's pic of THH...almost 20 years ago

Monkey Haze f2

 

[MadMac]

It is also interesting to note that Northern Thai x Seedsman Hz is not as good as Seedsman Hz x Northern Thai. Why is this I dont know

same here ...
best music for a great trip... never get's old...


M.

 

[Sunny valley seeds]

I have been breeding a Tom hill haze cross to everything I actually have recently saved a killer male of it, I’ll post pictures . This is EQ haze it is Tom hill Haze x Old timer haze cross made by Equilibrium seeds here in California .

 

[CannaT]

I dont know why people think that nature breed Cannabis as we are ?
Nature dont care about potency,I think that most importent for plants in nature is just to make reproduction. Thats why many plants tends to hermie.
We humans live with cannabis for milleniums,some people have very different opinion to cannabis than us "west" people.
In some countrues people will laugh if you want to put Cannabis on scale its like tomato or cuncumber there...I will say better,even salt and pepper...worthy but at the same time not worthy daily spice. Evrybody grow it, its everywhere they dont care about strong joint or 2 cuz they can put few Kg's in fire and chill in that room and can be high for hours.
We western people exactly breed the best cannabis there is. In various labs,gov and science experiments for various reasons.
USA invited "smoking" industry of cannabis.
To make strains,cultivars hypes just like with every other product on market there is.
If you are weed breeder...you want to make weed on your wish by your desires. You dont mimic nature and all those fancy green hippy shit.
You take those plants ,grow them and and kill every other cultivar that does not have desirable traits you are searching for.
If you breed hermies and shit ?
Why you breed at all...find some green house put seeds there and let nature do her thing.

Sometimes I think em I crazy,or whole world is crazy ?

Lots of people today dont think at all.
Thats why human race invited AI...it always must be same mass of inteligence on earth.

so it is also proven by physics. That the mass always remains the same, and only the shapes change. Since people lost their intelligence, its mass went into digital form.

If you ask yourself why do you rave about Toms strains,cuz he is like that ruthless mf that will kill 999 plants out of 1000 just to find that one. And start breed with it.
The more you like to kill the better breeder you will be. Its not job for sissy's.

 

[Hammerhead]

That discussion wasn't about breeding with herms. I already mentioned this. I was thinking out loud to invoke any discussion if hermaphroditism had/has anything to do with the high quality of cannabis when stabilizing because of more genetic code. Many of the old school clones still alive today came from herm pollinations. We def don't see that kind of quality often. It's not just Haze but all good weed is the same high type. There are excellent examples but still missing a specific chemical makeup.

The other more likely cause was breeding away from chemotypes in fav of THC. This prob had more impact on the high and chemical composition that's missing. THC is important but not to the degree it's gone to. The quality of the THC also matters. Most weed has dry Tricombs with little stickiness or none. Our bags were coated with resin from the flowers long ago. The bags had to be peeled open. Today's weed is basically the same high with different names. Who makes their purchase on the high type?. No one gets to sample before buying, It's all about how it looks.

Anyway IMO, talking about what was bred out hopefully helps us breed it back in. Anything else that comes to mind that caused the quality shift is of interest.

 

[Chi13]

The best cannais highs I've had since 1977 have been Thai sticks, an unknown purple sativa a friend grew, some laughing grass from the 80 (a hermie), and some Laos I had about 5 yeas ago that was like Thai stick. Hazes come close to these experiences.

I love modern varieties too, inclung indicas, crosses etc, but they don't have a high I prefer. I love hazes as well and grow them. However, despite all the science and breeding that CannaT points out, I dont unerstand why the best high I've had in recent times came from a third world country. I dont see US breeding as the pinacle of cannabis at all. I am in a minority though, and this is personal taste rather than the norm. Interesting discussion.

 

[Donald Mallard]

The best cannais highs I've had since 1977 have been Thai sticks, an unknown purple sativa a friend grew, some laughing grass from the 80 (a hermie), and some Laos I had about 5 yeas ago that was like Thai stick. Hazes come close to these experiences.

I love modern varieties too, inclung indicas, crosses etc, but they don't have a high I prefer. I love hazes as well and grow them. However, despite all the science and breeding that CannaT points out, I dont unerstand why the best high I've had in recent times came from a third world country. I dont see US breeding as the pinacle of cannabis at all. I am in a minority though, and this is personal taste rather than the norm. Interesting discussion.

I'm sure many in these threads agree wholeheartedly with you Chi ,
what I think has gone wrong is the folly of chasing the highest THC ,
all the stuff we older folks enjoyed didn't have half the thc of some of these modern varieties,
but we found them to be much more pleasing,

personally, i haven't found the more modern stuff to be better,
It just faster and looks and smells nice, it doesn't get you higher,
or are the highs as pleasing, shorter-lived, and often leaving one deflated and a bit worn out afterward...

 

[acespicoli]

opinion or scientific fact ??? some facts to follow
Its not even yet fully understood by geneticists read more if you like below
Its a discussion more for the breeding section of the forum
I like what @Raco added cross the haze with a DC and learn
Here is a short excerpt below from the link so you dont have to click

Frontiers | Hermaphroditism in Marijuana (Cannabis sativa L.) Inflorescences – Impact on Floral Morphology, Seed Formation, Progeny Sex Ratios, and Genetic Variation

Cannabis sativa L. (hemp, marijuana) produces male and female inflorescences on different plants (dioecious) and therefore the plants are obligatory out-cros...

www.frontiersin.org

Molecular markers have been described to distinguish between male and female plants in hemp. Using RAPD markers, Sakamoto et al. (1995) observed two DNA fragments (500 and 730 bp in size) to be present in male plants and absent in female plants. The 730 bp DNA fragment was named MADC1 (male-associated DNA sequence in Cannabis sativa). The sequence of MADC1 did not exhibit any significant similarity to previously reported sequences. In a study by Mandolino et al. (1999), RAPD analysis revealed the association of a 400 bp band consistently with male hemp plants. Following sequence characterization of this MADC2, a low homology (54.8–59.8%) was found to retrotransposon-like elements in plants but not to MADC1. Sakamoto et al. (2005) conducted further RAPD analysis to identify additional male-specific bands in hemp (MADC3 – 771 bp in size and MADC4 – 576 bp in size) which were characterized as retrotransposable elements and reported to be present on the Y chromosome as well as on other chromosomes in male plants. Torjek et al. (2001) reported additional male-specific sequences MACS5 and MADC6 in hemp which were not homologous to any previously published sequence. Furthermore, conserved domain analysis indicated the presence of either a rve Superfamily integrase core domain alone or in conjunction with a pre-integrase GAG domain, both of which are potential features of LTR retrotransposons (Llorens et al., 2011). These previous studies suggest there are multiple sequences within the C. sativa genome that are associated with the male genotype, but which can also occur on other chromosomes (autosomes), many of which have similarities to transposons.

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Most USA cultivars are Chemically induced feminized seed or bx of the former...
Not a true Y chromosome the selfed females are mutations
Sakamoto et al. (1995) observed two DNA fragments (500 and 730 bp in size) to be present in male plants and absent in female plants.

A key term is retro transposons
Retrotransposons are mobile genetic elements that transpose through reverse transcription of an RNA intermediate. Retrotransposons are ubiquitous in plants and play a major role in plant gene and genome evolution.

If anyone ever wants to talk hermis feel free share Thai pollen etc I have some to work thru as well

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Where the hell is T ? Bagging up seeds?
Wonder if he keeps hermis ? Doubt it ...
A discussion for another time perhaps

@cbf & @Raco nice collection you always bring some good
old days we stem rubbed males with the shortest nodes for terpenes and looked for sticky resin @Hammerhead ?
nowadays most chuck xx/xx elites

 

[Hammerhead]

The best cannais highs I've had since 1977 have been Thai sticks, an unknown purple sativa a friend grew, some laughing grass from the 80 (a hermie), and some Laos I had about 5 yeas ago that was like Thai stick. Hazes come close to these experiences.

I love modern varieties too, inclung indicas, crosses etc, but they don't have a high I prefer. I love hazes as well and grow them. However, despite all the science and breeding that CannaT points out, I dont unerstand why the best high I've had in recent times came from a third world country. I dont see US breeding as the pinnacle of cannabis at all. I am in a minority though, and this is personal taste rather than the norm. Interesting discussion.

I agree, def not the minority....I will add when it comes to high %THC and pretty weed the US prob is.. Hardly the pinnacle of high type and composition. The quick/fast method of doing many projects and releasing them in a short time I see often.

IMO, anything done well takes time.. Normally years of work.

 

[ICGA]

thanks for the reply,, i dont understand that an x carries same info as a y when we know they both carry separate ancestral dna therefore a y chromosone carrying dna that and x does not possess cant be missing anything ?? rest made sense to me lol

Y chromosome has less DNA then an X chromosome but X chromosomes contain all the information to make male sex organs which is why XX plants can be reversed. It's not a mutation, just an epigenetic/genomorphological change.

 

[Hammerhead]

Males can be reversed as well.

 

[ICGA]

Hi there bigherb
The source of my 21 males was one male from a Seedsman Hz original pack and the rest from MadMac
19 of them went intersex including the one from the original pack
I outcrossed all males and they made seed on themselves which I still keep
I sprouted some of this seed and the progeny seems to be sexually firm, I just sprouted a few seed to check

The progeny they made with the ohz girls was sexually firm but a lot of mutations and lack of vigour
The outcrosses ohz with landraces were the best, I didnt like the progeny of indicas x ohz, not my kind of weed

I found intersex in many southeast asians: Manipuri, Highland Laos, Gypsy Luang Prabang, Northern Thailand 2008, Ace Seeds Thai to add to the lines mentioned before

In general I found the girls going intersex in beginning and mid flowering
It is important to mention that they all intersexed the same way and at least in my environment, they dont make bananas
This is how southeast asians intersex:
View attachment 18838841 View attachment 18838842
This is the only trait I found so far for intersex. Only one plant which was a Northern Thai 2008 x Seedsman Hz did this flowering and remained firm, all the rest developed male flowers. I know when I see this flowering I have to watch that plant very closely
This is how it looks
View attachment 18838843
This is the trait
View attachment 18838844
For me it is an interesting subject. The progeny of intersex plants outcrossed gave me firm progeny and some of them are exceptional. The home made thai haze keeper is done with a thai girl that made a male branch. It is also interesting to note that Northern Thai x Seedsman Hz is not as good as Seedsman Hz x Northern Thai. Why is this I dont know
Have a nice weekend everyone

Because one male had better x chromosomes to pass on then the other. Just an effect of male selection and/or luck.

 

[ICGA]

That discussion wasn't about breeding with herms. I already mentioned this. I was thinking out loud to invoke any discussion if hermaphroditism had/has anything to do with the high quality of cannabis when stabilizing because of more genetic code. Many of the old school clones still alive today came from herm pollinations. We def don't see that kind of quality often. It's not just Haze but all good weed is the same high type. There are excellent examples but still missing a specific chemical makeup.

The other more likely cause was breeding away from chemotypes in fav of THC. This prob had more impact on the high and chemical composition that's missing. THC is important but not to the degree it's gone to. The quality of the THC also matters. Most weed has dry Tricombs with little stickiness or none. Our bags were coated with resin from the flowers long ago. The bags had to be peeled open. Today's weed is basically the same high with different names. Who makes their purchase on the high type?. No one gets to sample before buying, It's all about how it looks.

Anyway IMO, talking about what was bred out hopefully helps us breed it back in. Anything else that comes to mind that caused the quality shift is of interest.

Selecting for more THC probably often selects against CBG and THCV. especially because the plant has only so much energy for canabinoid biosynthesis and if it all goes to high THC levels there is less for other chemicals.

 

[ICGA]

Nature is what we think of as pre-wiring and is influenced by genetic inheritance and other biological factors. Nurture is generally taken as the influence of external factors after conception, e.g., the product of exposure, life experiences, and learning on an individual.

We take nature and
nurture out a desirable type to our tastes

Chemotypes. A chemotype describes the subspecies of a plant that have the same morphological characteristics (relating to form and structure) but produce different quantities of chemical components in their essential oils.

To me when humans get involved in nature is it for nature or to nuture?

Naturally a hermie is a true female to start....
That female due to un natural circumstances will at times prduce male flowers when the normal life cycle is disrupted... imagine a wild cannabis plant at the edge of its range that is female and near the end is unable to produce seed for lack of a male plant....that female at the edge is of a different population than the one the hermi pollen may fertilize miles away... a selfing and possibly a hybrid of sorts correct? From one population to the next that gives rise to very unique chemotypes... just 3 generations of different climatic conditions may alter a phenotype? lets say....now take that 5% or less of amazing type of ripper haze.... think if we have a f1 hybrid with two allele we are likley to get 25 50 25% mother father mix with mandel genetic inheritance....the % becomes more lop sided or maybe even lost if you are talking dominant or recessive trait or poly hybrids etc x x ....and which way you breed it to yield flower time terpene effect .... like sam and donald said 1000s plants grown for the rare phenotype keepers... for skunk they grew 1000s and kept what 7 plants and stacked the genes from there.... ribl

Why is it haze has <5% rippers 1 seed in 20 if your lucky maybe less the potency is the random factor that resists ibl true breeding

Wis it that in a run of 10 you lose phenos if you select and not OP every one of them?

Does a hermi female carry more gene data on the hermi side than the female side there was a dna read done on a male a female and a reversed female cannabis plant. Obviously the male or female dna differes in flower forming but is there more to it.

Not only the female pollenated by a male but the reversed female hermi pollen is a cross?

Does selfing differ from outcrossing?
What are the plus and minus?

Always wondered why it was recommended as a outcrosser?

A female recipient of a outcross hermi adds fertility to subsuquint crops this is well documented... take away a few late forming of a few banannas during a female past finished is not hurting the gene pool. IMO
This is how its worked for 1000s years in weed/crop complexes of cannabis.
Males in wild x hermi in domesticated sensi, that was a good point donald made.

Hempy makes some excellent points about traditional breeding and why we have always done it a certain way.

Its a very unnatural thing to take a female plant and expect her to finish without seed?

What is the entire purpose in wild?
Does nature know best or us?
If all we do is nurture...what is the cost?

Great duscussion Best
Hope to bring haze back huge in the next age of cannabis enlightenment and freedom with all these new genetic resources its a very exciting time.

Selfing reduces hetrozygosity in the majority if not all the progeny. Therefore there is more genetic redundancy and less genetic contingency for adapting to changing environments and environmental stressors. The haze the onterouge effect is dependant on a relatively specific combination of chromosomes working together. Therefore the majority don't inherit the right combination of genes and it is to complex to breed for using a simple IBL.

 

[acespicoli]

And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Plant sex determination and sex chromosomes - Heredity

Sex determination systems in plants have evolved many times from hermaphroditic ancestors (including monoecious plants with separate male and female flowers on the same individual), and sex chromosome systems have arisen several times in flowering plant evolution. Consistent with theoretical...

www.nature.com

I have always been under the assumption as well as conversations with SamS
You can get xx and xy from a XY but you cant get y from a XX but im far from a geneticist
I guess a reversal is the way to promote more xx daughters from XX mother
Of course the XY to xx reversal is not laking any genetic information not sure the m/f progeny results
Were they just used for smoke testing ?

THHaze had males reversed to female plants?
Sam did say it was a fast track to testing males saves many generations of grows perhaps?
For the hazes old heads often said they save male clones and progeny test them
I just keep it all and pick clones I like to run @Yo Sammy has some suggestions that were good as well about keeping your hazes vigorous he has some great albums hopefully they are still public viewable. There are alot of good folks here with a wealth of knowledge