Tom Hill Haze

[windmills]

I can tell you this, as a practical producer and breeder, no way am I going to facilitate or keep hermi's in my garden. The end result can only be disastrous in the short term. And, I am not in this for any long term - survival of the species - game. The plant was doing just fine with that before I ever arrived. Anyone who has ever chucked knows that seeds dramatically change a lot of the makeup of the end product. If you want seeds, that can be desirable, but if not, not much. They change where the plant is putting its energy, and it's chemical composition. Having done this a significant amount of time I am not interested in wasting my time. If someone wants to keep or, crazier yet, introduce hermi's into their end game, that is up to them. Personally, I avoid them always, like the plague. And do whatever I need to and what's best so to not create any anew. I want to limit unnecessary and undesirable surprises.

I never bothered to determine what exact percentile of hermi's I found, except that I know I have found them. I have seen them in several strains I have tried to grow. I believe it to be prudent and relevant to, as others have discussed, express our own direct experiences. Bringing into any conversation that this is what "everyone" sees, or "everyone" does not see, regarding another poster's view, is simply boastful nature. To proclaim or to promote oneself point of view. This is obvious ganging up or bullying. We are all here to share our direct experiences and hopes. Denigrating, or attempting to do so, in such derogatory efforts, or limiting others in their conversation, is not that. Correcting a misquote(s) of others, however, is both prudent and relevant. We should strive not to misquote. We all come here hopefully to insightfully grow, and to learn from each other. Something we all should remember, and to be true to.

Regarding hermaphrodism: Discussing whether they started out as male, or female, seems an oxymoron to me. The fact is that they are exhibiting dual-sex tendencies. I know there are humans, for example, that are apparently born with both male and female genital organs, on the same living person. Are they a man, or a women? I would guess that if they are both working then only truly a medical doctor maybe possibly could decide. If a plant that starts out looking female starts to develop male pollen sacks, is it a female plant? Or is it a male? To me it is a hermaphrodite, and this exhibited tendency has ruined crops of my friends, and mine too. If someone has the determination and time to process what could be decades long, or lifetime experience, of keeping such plants in their own genetic pool, rather than culling them, I guess they could. Given the unknown, or unspecified values, I never could or would.

I know I could never feel good about gifting such byproducts, in the nature of seeds, to anyone else, even with letting them know they came from hermaphroditic stock. If they happen to possess some qualities that other sibling true females in my garden might somehow be lacking, sorry for that. They are untrustworthy. Personally I have no time for their destructive and unpredictable nature. Especially for guerilla growing. Where one comes and goes from their area perhaps on an every other week time frame. Hermi's can easily blow in such time frame. In a small space they can seed everything there, and create a rat bonanza for any that wanders into the space. With all your hard work either lying or rotting on the ground. In this one lifetime that I have now, I just have no time to waste for this.

 

[@hempy]

Hempy, we've had disagreements in the past but it's honestly not my intention to start an argument.

I was a horticulturist and grew up in a family business. We grew 15,000 plants (not cannabis) and for sake of security lets call them tomatoes (they were the same size plants as cannabis). We ran that business with a family of three. All of us walked past those plants every day, twice a day, harvesting, maintaining, looking for pests. If they were cannabis plants we would have easily weeded out hermaphrodites. I'm sure Thai farmers could do the same with 50,000 or more plants.

We're about the same age, from the same country. My experience is that I had several hermies over the years, all sativa's. My recent growing of Thai encountered some hermies, some males, and some females. Thai is renowned for being hermaphrodite prone. A simple seach shows that. Do you want links? Even the original seed you got originated from Thai's that had a 1/3 ratio of hermie to true sex.

Hammer i have no issues with you mate or do i take affiance at you shearing your experiences about what you saw back in the day. It just was not my experience here.

People growing indoors even in tents have mist males and had males seed there grows mate it happens and back then grows were huge and some grows were so bunched together you would need a good number of people and days or weeks to spot all the males.

Like i said my experience with Thai sativas comes from decades of growing them.

 

[acespicoli]

Cannabis Glandular Trichomes: A Cellular Metabolite Factory ​

Cannabis has been legalized for recreational use in several countries and medical use is authorized in an expanding list of countries; markets are growing internationally, causing an increase in demand for high quality products with well-defined properties. The key compounds of Cannabis plants...

www.frontiersin.org



While male plants produce small amounts of cannabinoids, in cannabis cultivation, the primary products are the female flowers clustered in inflorescences (Ohlsson et al., 1971). Stalked glandular trichomes are primarily concentrated on the calyces and bracts (Figure 1A; Spitzer-Rimon et al., 2019; Leme et al., 2020) with populations extending to the inflorescence “sugar leaves”; these are the sites of accumulation for secreted metabolic products. These valuable secretions include tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA), cannabidiolic acid (CBDA), terpenes, and flavonoids (ElSohly and Slade, 2005; Flores-Sanchez and Verpoorte, 2008). Cannabis plant morphology and cannabinoid profiles are influenced by genetics and the cultivation environment, highlighting the importance of controlled conditions for cannabis cultivation (Magagnini et al., 2018; Danziger and Bernstein, 2021a, b).

One hundred ten whole genomes of cannabis cultivars, from wild plants and historical varieties to modern hybrids, with a focus on Asian sources to account for the likely domestication origin, were recently sequenced and analyzed to provide an invaluable genetic framework for the history of the plant; the resulting information can be applied to secondary metabolite investigations (Ren et al., 2021). With time, the validity of these hypotheses is sure to be determined thanks to this new genomic information, along with valuable insight into the impressive complexity seen within them.

good reads...

So larfy bud is not the stuff you see in a jar and wanna buy off the shelf ?

with populations extending to the inflorescence “sugar leaves”; these are the sites of accumulation for secreted metabolic products. These valuable secretions include tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA), cannabidiolic acid (CBDA), terpenes, and flavonoids (ElSohly and Slade, 2005;


Like many landrace resin cultivars were traditionally leafy ?
Who wants sticky trim ? I always like to leave the trim on always thought it protected the resins

 

[Hammerhead]

Nice post @acespicoli


This isn't about breeding specifically with herm plants for production use. I started the topic to see what the most likely cause for the decline in cannabis quality. The type of high we used to have was far better than today..

Any plant that carries an important trait regardless of its having intersex issues is worthy of preservation IMO. Any herm issues can be fixed later if you plan on doing something commercial. Herm/Fem seeds have been grown and bred forever.. IMO the seeds we grow today prob at some point had contact with herm pollen whether man-made or by nature. Males can inherit those traits and pass them on.. The plants we use don't exhibit any intersex traits but we still see plenty of intersex plants depending on the parents used..

Figuring out what caused the quality shift is what I was asking. Was it from breeding away from something specific.? Was it the time spent stabilizing from intersex plants? Was it breeding for max THC content and not chemotypes?

Hammer i have no issues with you mate or do i take affiance at you shearing your experiences about what you saw back in the day. It just was not my experience here.

LOL, You quoted the wrong person. That was from @Chi13

 

[Chi13]

Hammer i have no issues with you mate or do i take affiance at you shearing your experiences about what you saw back in the day. It just was not my experience here.

People growing indoors even in tents have mist males and had males seed there grows mate it happens and back then grows were huge and some grows were so bunched together you would need a good number of people and days or weeks to spot all the males.

View attachment 18839630
View attachment 18839631

Like i said my experience with Thai sativas comes from decades of growing them.

No worries hempy. You mixed me up with Hammerhead but no dramas.

I have been growing the same amount of time (1977) and my personal experience has been different. I have missed the odd male flower in my tent, but never would miss a proper hermie. Nice pics of cannabis fields, but many people would be working those. Workers would have to go through and remove males for starters. Even at age 60 I can hike 20 km in less than 4 hours. It is easier to check fields like that than you might think.

My main reason for posting about hermies is a great high I had from a hermie that I have not found since, and I still wonder if there might be effects that maybe are present in hermies that we a missing today.

 

[Donald Mallard]

No worries hempy. You mixed me up with Hammerhead but no dramas.

I have been growing the same amount of time (1977) and my personal experience has been different. I have missed the odd male flower in my tent, but never would miss a proper hermie. Nice pics of cannabis fields, but many people would be working those. Workers would have to go through and remove males for starters. Even at age 60 I can hike 20 km in less than 4 hours. It is easier to check fields like that than you might think.

My main reason for posting about hermies is a great high I had from a hermie that I have not found since, and I still wonder if there might be effects that maybe are present in hermies that we a missing today.

i agree having grown thousands of plants at a time,
we didnt miss males ,
its pretty easy to see them , maybe not for amateurs like the bloke you are quoting,
who has only had little grows and never seen large scale ,
but the large scale folks are professionals who know what they are doing , and they do it pretty well generally..
anyhow i think we were talking about thai crops , which none of the pictures other than the first one he posted were ,
just using false pictures that are unrelated to try to prove a point that is wrong in the first place .....

i too have had the odd hermie deliver some great highs ,
but i wouldnt include them in the mix ,
i think whats missing now is the fields that were growing in the 70s and early 80s no longer are grown ,
its not they are missing hermies imo ...

 

[@hempy]

I think genetics and genetics alone determine the potency and type of high but the plant needs to be healthy and allowed to mature to fully express its potential.

Hermaphrodites can be natural or can occur from stress now if it happens from stress is it a build in preservation trigger or is it a hermaphrodite that is just dormant and if its the later dose that mean that most cannabis we grow is in fact a hermaphrodite.

Humans also have a % of hermaphrodites in the population but they are sterile unable to reproduce.

 

[acespicoli]

check out this nigerian plant from the 96 hillig study. the hawaiians in this study were the real sleepers lots of grinspoon types. many peeps report finding grinspoon types consistently in oaxacans especially older ones like mystic funk. this particular nigerian was part of an outlier group in the hillig study containing only colombians, south africa(transkei,zimbabwe, etc) these weird type plants also showed up in the 87 mazar nev donated to this study.

i agree that this type has a "survival" relationship with gender wherin a male plant will seed itself towards the end of its life.

and i think it could even happen in the beginning too-
i started 20 outback haze outcrosses(north vietnam) but flipped them in 2 groups 10 days apart.

the first 10 sexed as 9 males and 1 female
while the second group 8 females 2 males
. a small sample size for sure but it made me think the plants sexing in second round sensed the males presence and sexed as females.
adding to the intrigue i kept one of the 2 males from the second round because it was so beautiful nld... this plant ends up seeding itself with the same wild type seeds u see in this pic .
thats a big hint there- outback vietnam seeds were normal type no carnuckle did not seed shatter normal size. but when the monoceious outbackvietnam male seeded itself in f1 gen, it created wild type seeds very small, finished in open air then shattered and formed in the grinspoon type fashion.

to me it looks like there are more primal jungle types still under immense instinct from the wild which conditions have not changed much ever. they have tons of upside but this monoceious tendencies make sensimilla difficult and hybrids sex stability unpredictable. also alot of diversity is lost when these monceious male types are culled. so much diversity has been thrown away in pursuit of stable genetics. in my opinion females who show bananas should be culled. but males with female features should be bred with. the male input has the possibility of adding diversity, and if u want resin males etc the ones with the female features would have the most! worry about female stability only when it comes to selection of the production clones. i have a couple piff s2 x tom hill/old timers males going right now that smell like heaven better then most female bud ive grown!
we are finding huge chunks of diversity only carried forward in the male genomes and that semi feral lilnes have significantly larger genomes then domesticated types.
View attachment 18839507
View attachment 18839498 View attachment 18839499 View attachment 18839500

this is a epic post you see
Imagine starting with everything in a hermi pre evolution to male and female
Monoecious (botany))
Hermaphrodite_(botany)

Species[1]
Scientific classification
Cannabis Temporal range: Early Miocene - Present 19.6–0 Ma
Common hemp
Kingdom:	Plantae
Clade:	Tracheophytes
Clade:	Angiosperms
Clade:	Eudicots
Clade:	Rosids
Order:	Rosales
Family:	Cannabaceae
Genus:	Cannabis L.
Cannabis sativa L. Cannabis indica Lam. Cannabis ruderalis Janisch

Go to hops and evolve from there ? Where was the old landrace better highs lost culling what ?

Hermaphroditism promotes mate diversity in flowering plants​

National Institutes of Health (.gov)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › articles › PMC6852098





by DA Christopher · 2019 · Cited by 13 — Here we show that hermaphroditism nearly doubles mate diversity, and discuss the implications for evolutionary processes in flowering plant ...

Conclusions​

Dual sex roles contribute to a near doubling of mate diversity in our experimental population of Mimulus ringens. This finding may help explain the maintenance of hermaphroditism under conditions that would otherwise favor the evolution of separate sexes.
Keywords: hermaphrodite, male fitness, mate diversity, mating network, mating portfolio, multiple paternity, paternity, pollination, selfing, sexual system

I like to think of it as a fractal tree and culling diminishes the genetic diversity of possibilities for
very unique possiblities... I like what N. said when he spoke along the lines of he didnt like indica x indica cause there was no fizz... think of the nl lines 1 - 10 or the diversity in the OP haze... plenty of fizz to play with
sativa x indica like @Raco monkey haze... the best teachers dont tell you how to do things they teach you how to find things for yourself.

If 96% of Angiosperms are hermi look at the roots thats where the most diversity is

Cannabis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cannabis is an annual, dioecious, flowering herb.

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All known strains of Cannabis are wind-pollinated[13] and the fruit is an achene.[14] Most strains of Cannabis are short day plants,[13] with the possible exception of C. sativa subsp. sativa var. spontanea (= C. ruderalis), which is commonly described as "auto-flowering" and may be day-neutral.

Cannabis is predominantly dioecious,[13][15] having imperfect flowers, with staminate "male" and pistillate "female" flowers occurring on separate plants.[16] "At a very early period the Chinese recognized the Cannabis plant as dioecious",[17] and the (c. 3rd century BCE) Erya dictionary defined xi 枲 "male Cannabis" and fu 莩 (or ju 苴) "female Cannabis".[18] Male flowers are normally borne on loose panicles, and female flowers are borne on racemes.[19]

Many monoecious varieties have also been described,[20] in which individual plants bear both male and female flowers.[21] (Although monoecious plants are often referred to as "hermaphrodites", true hermaphrodites – which are less common in Cannabis – bear staminate and pistillate structures together on individual flowers, whereas monoecious plants bear male and female flowers at different locations on the same plant.) Subdioecy (the occurrence of monoecious individuals and dioecious individuals within the same population) is widespread.[22][23][24] Many populations have been described as sexually labile.[25][26][27]

As a result of intensive selection in cultivation, Cannabis exhibits many sexual phenotypes that can be described in terms of the ratio of female to male flowers occurring in the individual, or typical in the cultivar.[28] Dioecious varieties are preferred for drug production, where the fruits (produced by female flowers) are used. Dioecious varieties are also preferred for textile fiber production, whereas monoecious varieties are preferred for pulp and paper production. It has been suggested that the presence of monoecy can be used to differentiate licit crops of monoecious hemp from illicit drug crops,[22] but sativa strains often produce monoecious individuals, which is possibly as a result of inbreeding.

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(Although monoecious plants are often referred to as "hermaphrodites", true hermaphrodites – which are less common in Cannabis – bear staminate and pistillate structures together on individual flowers, whereas monoecious plants bear male and female flowers at different locations on the same plant.)


Huge thanks for sharing those examples of these types in the previous post
Very amazing things
male and female from same bract
as well as seperate sex on different branches nice examples of differentiation

 

[windmills]

Personally, I have not seen any marked degradation in the potency of what I have grown and see available from friends. We are all doing better than before. It is challenging for me to understand how weeding out or culling a hermaphroditic plant is going to somehow lessen the overall potency, especially of a landrace, or even combined landrace hybrid. We have to remember that herb has been flourishing in such areas, typically many millenniums of time before man ever arrived, and for perhaps thousands of years by trader's transport. It is easy to forget that this is not a modern plant at all, having been around for millions of years. As such, our effects, are simply a dot in time. Growing indoors of course is not like in the sun, no matter what, so that is the most obvious reason to me. Not from any missing hermaphrodite puzzle piece. At least not in my direct experience. Or from any direct evidence I've seen.

 

[@hempy]

just using false pictures that are unrelated to try to prove a point that is wrong in the first place .....

Really false pictures ?

Like it or not Wally those are the types of grows most of the early imports came from and you posted many pictures of your gorilla grows threw the years and yes your grows would be easy to go threw and spot male were those pictured would not.

 

[Hammerhead]

After watching that video breeding out CBD could be a factor as well. Most weed today has very little CBD.

 

[Chi13]

"From a genetic point of view, some genetics are more susceptible to hermaphroditic traits than others. In example it is known that a high hermaphroditic strain is Thailand sativa".

Hermaphroditic strains - The weed nobody wants

Today we will talk about hermaphroditic strains, a disease many growers suffer, that is consequence of absurdities made by others. Unfortunately the word hermaphrodite is included in cannabis dictionary, as it happens more often than expected, throwing away efforts, money and specially time...

www.santyerbasi.com

 

[acespicoli]

Frontiers | Polyploidization for the Genetic Improvement of Cannabis sativa

Cannabis sativa L. is a diploid species, cultivated throughout the ages as a source of fiber, food, and secondary metabolites with therapeutic and recreation...

www.frontiersin.org

Tetraploid leaves showed 40.4% higher glandular trichome density (4.41 ± 0.16 trichomes per mm2) compared to diploids (3.14 ± 0.15 trichomes per mm2).

What cannabis is a natural Tetraploid having naturally multiple copies of chromosones?
Years ago there was chemical induced think high rise ....etc but what plants have extra copies of chromo's

Ancient Origins: How a Virus Changed Cannabis DNA | Have A Heart

Though humanity’s history with cannabis is long and storied, cannabis DNA was not fully explored until recently. And the findings are enlightening!

haveaheartcc.com

University of Toronto scientists recently finished the first comprehensive chromosome map for sativa strains of cannabis. According to their findings, a millennia-old virus was responsible for mutations in cannabis DNA leading to the emergence of the signature chemical components within cannabis that result in its potent effects, namely THC and CBD.

In fact, this process of viral infections producing new or unique features in plants is relatively common. When viruses form a relationship with their host, they modify the host’s DNA to enable reproduction to easily occur, a process that unfolded with the cannabis plant millions of years ago. This modification caused a reaction in the cannabis plant that led to the production of cannabinoids like THC and CBD.

For some reason, the presence of cannabinoids in the cannabis plant was a trait that led to increased reproduction. When humanity encountered the cannabis plant, guided breeding encouraged greater cannabinoid content, leading eventually to the high-THC strains and distinctive cannabis high that we are familiar with today.

While University of Toronto researcher Tim Hughes and his team have been mapping out the cannabis genome since well before the first draft of the report was published in 2011, it was not until recently that these fascinating discoveries were made known to the public. But that isn’t the only interesting information about cannabis DNA the report uncovered.

The genome map also revealed that genes for THC and CBD are separate.

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The team also discovered the gene for a little-known cannabinoid called cannabichromene (CBC). There are hundreds of cannabinoids known to be produced by the cannabis plant, many of which remain unidentified and unstudied.

 

[Chi13]

Really false pictures ?

Like it or not Wally those are the types of grows most of the early imports came from and you posted many pictures of your gorilla grows threw the years and yes your grows would be easy to go threw and spot male were those pictured would not.

The pics were great but I doubt Mel would be posting pics of hermaphrodites especially these days.

You need to realise that these big fields are maintained by many people and that they have to weed out males anyway so why wouldn't they weed out hermaphrodites as well? It is their living, so they'd be in there daily. They don't just plant 50,000 seeds and leave it and hope for the best.

 

[acespicoli]

After watching that video breeding out CBD could be a factor as well. Most weed today has very little CBD.

Sams old skunk was like 20% cannabinoids 13% thc and 7% cbd that was the hybrids fizz that gave rise to the unique sulfur metabolites, RC well you know him and skunk but he co authored the cannabinoid book cover in previous post here its 300+ pages of good info in pdf format

 

[Hammerhead]

Breeding for high THC content and not chemotypes was a huge error IMO.. High THC content is not what makes weed the most potent. All of us that experienced that high long ago know what that was like. It also had great aroma/Flav. Some plant's leaves tasted as good as the bud did. Weed today is all the same high type. Producing high-quality cannabis I experienced 50 years ago is what I'm after. If a herm carries a trait to achieve this ill use it. I can take the time to stabilize any issues I encounter. I see no need to rush that process. Most people base their opinions on today's weed. It's not possible for the masses to be able to distinguish the difference when they have never tried the weed of that time. ..

RC mentioned in his interview that today's cannabis can't get back those original landrace building blocks we use to have. Those genes are just too watered down by now. This could be the main cause for the quality decline

 

[acespicoli]

Experienced smokers know nothing comes close to the potency of a true Haze. Growers also know this, but long flowering periods, unruly phenotypes, and the infamous 1-in-5-crapshoot chance of finding a special female have held many back. Breeding an indoor-friendly Haze strain that consistently delivers superior potency has been the very focus of DF breeding efforts since its inception. To that end, the team has collected and grown enough clones and crosses to setup a small Haze museum. Synthesizing our best Haze genetics into one line posed a considerable challenge.

In early trials, proven clones passed down their potency genes on to the next generations using an unacceptable, unpredictable domino pattern. To develop a superior seed line, males were tested the hard way, growing out their offspring to recognize the best possible pollen source. Winning donors pollinated our choicest females, and their offspring was then heavily selected at the second generation.

Recombinant individuals displaying the desired potency, phenotype, flowering and yield traits were identified and inbred into separate lines. Three years after the project begun, the resulting lines were finally blended,

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• Recombinant organism –
• an organism that contains a different combination of alleles from either of its parents.

Anyone read the article about THC being the byproduct of a viral mutation in the evolution of cannabis ?

 

[acespicoli]

Breeding for high THC content and not chemotypes was a huge error IMO.. High THC content is not what makes weed the most potent. All of us that experienced that high long ago know what that was like. It also had great aroma/Flav. Some plant's leaves tasted as good as the bud did. Weed today is all the same high type. Producing high-quality cannabis I experienced 50 years ago is what I'm after. If a herm carries a trait to achieve this ill use it. I can take the time to stabilize any issues I encounter. I see no need to rush that process. Most people base their opinions on today's weed. It's not possible for the masses to be able to distinguish the difference when they have never tried the weed of that time. ..

RC mentioned in his interview that today's cannabis can't get back those original landrace building blocks we use to have. Those genes are just too watered down by now. This could be the main cause for the quality decline

What I liked was creeper weed and had a really good congo one time
The early hazes anything with no ceiling, there were some really positive strains
Scary high like hold on for the roller coaster ride? yeah...
not around anymore most people cant handle it and get scared extreme thcv levels

Like Jack the ripper
THCV:

6.49%

Total Active Cannabinoids: 20.84%

JTR it’s just makes my heart race and my ears ring. I find myself talking faster laughing and telling stories more than usual while high on JTR. It doesn’t seem to have a ceiling and the more I smoke the higher I get to the point my vision will actually blur from multiple bong hits. Jack the Ripper

Alot of people wont smoke with me
Is that that you had last time ? They geek one dude ws talking to aliens and baptized himself in the bathtub and flooded the house. NO BS

 

[@hempy]

The pics were great but I doubt Mel would be posting pics of hermaphrodites especially these days.

You need to realise that these big fields are maintained by many people and that they have to weed out males anyway so why wouldn't they weed out hermaphrodites as well? It is their living, so they'd be in there daily. They don't just plant 50,000 seeds and leave it and hope for the best.

Mel Frank documented grows from the 70s on and the fact they are not Homophardites proves they were stable do they not.

Look at it logically Chi if the old sativas were as prone to hermaphrodite traits as some here believe then why is something like Haze not prone to hermaphrodite expressiveness considering its a pure sativa hybrid ?

 

[harvestreaper]

ive culled many hermis that i liked to smoke ,, just dont want them messing up any breeding im doing,, it can wipe out a lot of time an effort ,,,its frustrating if its the best of the bunch but to me its like nearly getting what i was after but not quite ,a compromise ,like a breeder of white dogs who turns a blind eye to deafness because he hit his color goal my logic is go back try again til you get the quality without the hermi , seen bagseed hermis produce non hermi offspring to which is ok for a clone but different for breeding on as you know its lurking and youll be throwing it back in the mix ,,on another side ive seen plants hermi indoors that dont outside ,,are we to use artificial lab conditions to make these assessments ? not sure it carry's much weight scientifically imo outdoors would show more as that the environment they were created/selected from ,, a tent/room is the whole world if thats the environment your using and they have to perform correctly in that world ,,but to go on an make assessments on hermis on such conditions could be misleading ,,if i grow in a tent with a houselight bulb the plants have to perform there for me simple as that march or die so to speak i dont care about there issues or reasons for issues but that got nothing to do with there quality/sexual stability only my enviromental needs which appears to be most growers position