the "real" landrace debate

[Thule]

It has been stated that within three or four generations an old variety (or an f1?) grown in a new environment will turn into a distinct variety of it's own. The initial stages of adaptation can happen relatively fast.

As to when does a variety qualify as a landrace, a heirloom or any other man made label I don't really care. If I'm growing Colombian Gold on the moon it is still Colombian Gold to me. The same package of genetic material with the same origin. I would probably label it the Moon selection of Colombian Gold though.

Years later people might start considering it a landrace and that's how it has happened in the past. We find people growing something and stick the label "landrace" on it. Just to separate it from anything "engineered". I'm fine with that.

Appearances change, genetics drift etc but man-made terms like landrace should be used to simplify things, not make them more complicated imo.

I never use the term landrace in real life but on the forums it gives a good idea on what we're talking about.

 

[Alpenglow]

willydread i had that thought too from time to time. But its more a "what region would be known for this and that" thought. Like Indiana Bubblegum or Emerald Triangle whatever.
But without prohibition would those strains even exist there in the wild and be known for that there grow best there?
One step further we could look back to the 90´s in Switzerland. Most popular would be the Erdbeerli i guess, but it was just a cut. Dont forget about the Swiss Miss, a Nepali Skunk Hybrid that worked outdoor there, also known as the Swiss Skunk. Closest to heirloom/landrace could be then the Purpurea Ticinensis. All that stuff could become an heirloom, maybe...
As long as those strains dont grow in the wild and adapt to the new environment to become a regional thing we should take it at was it is: In the best case an IBL

 

[Sunshineinabag]

So can someone explain to me how in the early days of First Colonial ization if that's what was happening they brought hemp up here to use for sailing supplies excetera excetera that shit has no psychoactive value you mean to tell me that there were a group of people that were like bored and found a psychoactive component to that or did this stuff develop on its own in Zhe wild? I'm trying to understand how psychoactive cannabis broke away from hemp

 

[Alpenglow]

So can someone explain to me how in the early days of First Colonial ization if that's what was happening they brought hemp up here to use for sailing supplies excetera excetera that shit has no psychoactive value you mean to tell me that there were a group of people that were like bored and found a psychoactive component to that or did this stuff develop on its own in Zhe wild? I'm trying to understand how psychoactive cannabis broke away from hemp

You talk about hemp in South America or general?

 

[romanoweed]

Back to Basics (Hemp anchestry)

Sunshineinabag to understan it , we better talk about Wild Species versus Landraces.

(besides there are no more true wild cannabis, there are still feral.. escaped manmade Clutivars suddenly surviving on their own, wild).

So, many wild races, also in Foodplants have less favorable traits.
And once man selected it over decades, centuries, it became more favorable to man.
So, feral-wild Cannabis is pretty weak in general. Not favorable.

So, yes, any weak cultivar may have become strong..
But you say it was probably industrial hemp ... industrial hemp often gets unfavorable charakteristics, cause the Selectionprocess it went trough wasnt considering drug-qualities... And therefore it was still unsmokable, cause not selected for it..
But would you start selecting for Drug-effects even Hemp would become Drug-cultivar probably..
Consider aswell that OLD Hemp, opposed to todays hemp , didnt need to pass THC measurements and probably did contain 2, 3 Percent THC. It was sometimes a multipurpose Cultivar that was used, so selected for different things at once, for smoking, for clothing, for nice apperance.. so, it would contain probably even more thc than wild species.

So, yes its possible that Drugcultivars of Columbia per example derivered from hemp, alltho its also possible they were indian, african, asian descent. but acording theory its possible to deriver from hemp.

Its possible anything can be shaped into anything, over centuries

 

[Sunshineinabag]

I love learning here. This my thing. Thankyou

 

[romanoweed]

but i distance myselve from the Idea this can happen in just 4 Genrations. Imho that sounds hard to imagine.

 

[willydread]

willydread i had that thought too from time to time. But its more a "what region would be known for this and that" thought. Like Indiana Bubblegum or Emerald Triangle whatever.
But without prohibition would those strains even exist there in the wild and be known for that there grow best there?
One step further we could look back to the 90´s in Switzerland. Most popular would be the Erdbeerli i guess, but it was just a cut. Dont forget about the Swiss Miss, a Nepali Skunk Hybrid that worked outdoor there, also known as the Swiss Skunk. Closest to heirloom/landrace could be then the Purpurea Ticinensis. All that stuff could become an heirloom, maybe...
As long as those strains dont grow in the wild and adapt to the new environment to become a regional thing we should take it at was it is: In the best case an IBL

First off: I use Google translate, so sorry in advance if I misunderstood something.

You see, a landrace is not a domesticated wild variety, but a variety that over time people have also selected based on its environment. So a good farmer in California does the same thing as a farmer in Sri Lanka: he selects the best plants that, among the various qualities, adapt to the habitat.
Swiss varieties are more like ibl, firstly they are newer (less than 30 years old), and then most (not all) are derived from famous seeds from Amsterdam ...(I remember swiss lady,and one other strain with strawberry aroma, maybe erbeer or some cross with it)
​​​​
I know people in Italy who have had Afghan and Mexican lines for 40 years, and surely there will also be in Switzerland and even more so in countries like Germany, Sweden and Denmark, where many European hippies and smokers came from.

 

[Thule]

Back to Basics (Hemp anchestry)

Sunshineinabag to understan it , we better talk about Wild Species versus Landraces.

(besides there are no more true wild cannabis, there are still feral.. escaped manmade Clutivars suddenly surviving on their own, wild).

So, many wild races, also in Foodplants have less favorable traits.
And once man selected it over decades, centuries, it became more favorable to man.
So, feral-wild Cannabis is pretty weak in general. Not favorable.

So, yes, any weak cultivar may have become strong..
But you say it was probably industrial hemp ... industrial hemp often gets unfavorable charakteristics, cause the Selectionprocess it went trough wasnt considering drug-qualities... And therefore it was still unsmokable, cause not selected for it..
But would you start selecting for Drug-effects even Hemp would become Drug-cultivar probably..
Consider aswell that OLD Hemp, opposed to todays hemp , didnt need to pass THC measurements and probably did contain 2, 3 Percent THC. It was sometimes a multipurpose Cultivar that was used, so selected for different things at once, for smoking, for clothing, for nice apperance.. so, it would contain probably even more thc than wild species.

So, yes its possible that Drugcultivars of Columbia per example derivered from hemp, alltho its also possible they were indian, african, asian descent. but acording theory its possible to deriver from hemp.

Its possible anything can be shaped into anything, over centuries

The bt allele for high THC production does not just pop up in a hemp genepool if it wasn't there to begin with. So you cannot breed a drug strain from a modern hemp strain. If the hempe of olde had a mixed CBD/THC profile then yes. Indian or Chinese derived feral hemp could easily be bred towards high THC.

 

[romanoweed]

i never read anything that suggests its impossible for a modern hempstrain with 0,3THC to become a drugstrain ever again.

 

[Sunshineinabag]

First off: I use Google translate, so sorry in advance if I misunderstood something.

You see, a landrace is not a domesticated wild variety, but a variety that over time people have also selected based on its environment. So a good farmer in California does the same thing as a farmer in Sri Lanka: he selects the best plants that, among the various qualities, adapt to the habitat.
Swiss varieties are more like ibl, firstly they are newer (less than 30 years old), and then most (not all) are derived from famous seeds from Amsterdam ...(I remember swiss lady,and one other strain with strawberry aroma, maybe erbeer or some cross with it)
​​​​
I know people in Italy who have had Afghan and Mexican lines for 40 years, and surely there will also be in Switzerland and even more so in countries like Germany, Sweden and Denmark, where many European hippies and smokers came from.

You just blew my mind
the ricola dude smoking Mexican red

 

[Sunshineinabag]

Why couldn't American high schools teach this chit? I would camped in that classroom lol

 

[Piff_cat]

The bt allele for high THC production does not just pop up in a hemp genepool if it wasn't there to begin with. So you cannot breed a drug strain from a modern hemp strain. If the hempe of olde had a mixed CBD/THC profile then yes. Indian or Chinese derived feral hemp could easily be bred towards high THC.

Very solid point. Have you seen the newest bt bd allele stuff? Bo allele defective for either thc or cbd synthase allowing build up of cbg but also shutting down cbd production(although q small amount somehow still metabolized about 10% fraction. Add this info to the discovery Bt and Bd aren't on the same locus but rather same chromosome. They are linked but not co dominant. So now you've got all kinds of heterosis options. Technically you could cross a stop/start synthase for specific cannaninoids with progeny tested males.
certain metabolite trait which activates deactivates a targeted cannabinoid monoterpene sequiterpenes etc.

 

[Thule]

Very solid point. Have you seen the newest bt bd allele stuff? Bo allele defective for either thc or cbd synthase allowing build up of cbg but also shutting down cbd production(although q small amount somehow still metabolized about 10% fraction. Add this info to the discovery Bt and Bd aren't on the same locus but rather same chromosome. They are linked but not co dominant. So now you've got all kinds of heterosis options. Technically you could cross a stop/start synthase for specific cannaninoids with progeny tested males.
certain metabolite trait which activates deactivates a targeted cannabinoid monoterpene sequiterpenes etc.

I've heard about it in passing but haven't really wrapped my head around it yet.

I did look into the CBG stuff though. Ace has most of their flagship strains analyzed and you can take a look at the cannabinoid profiles in the description. Their SE Asian and African strains did show elevated levels of CBG. I'm thinking CBG might actually be the cannabinoid that sets them apart effect wise, not THCV, like it was speculated before.

 

[Sunshineinabag]

Cbg has me very interested
the Sawzi gold and black look really really good to my amateur eye

 

[Piff_cat]

Cbgs most noted effect is reducing ocular pressure . Korea japan Taiwan east africa all have history of ancestor worship in religion aided by cannabis. Many ne asian strains have a high lignin count. When burned lignin releases plumes of thick white smoke and pleasant smells. The reduction of ocular pressure can give off a trance quality and white smoke can serve as a canvas for visions. Early folk medicine and magic are intertwined especially in isolation such as North vietnam laos thai karen hmong khmu all known for their skill in spells potions etc. Africa is especially interesting because it's basically all drug cannabis not much fiber being grown. Cbg and cbc also shown strong anti depressant serotonin inducing qualities. Strawberry cough is high in cbg cbc and thc. A full spectrum rso literally felt like mdma if not better! Here is a good nevil haze example profile

drvgrinspoon

 

[Hempy McNoodle]

I'd just as soon, ditch the term "landrace" altogether. I call em 'locality,' heirloom,' vintage,' traditional,' indigenous,' or combos of those.

 

[Chi13]

whats the consensus on what time period in a new place would define a landrace ??
100 years , 150 ??

It's a good question and I don't have the answer, but I think it is much longer than 30 years that some are suggesting.

I can take a haze seed that was first worked 50 years ago, and whether I grow it in the outdoors or indoors, anywhere in the world it will still have characteristics that are haze to more or less a degree. If I took that same haze and grew it in Afganistan outdoors for 30 years, it would no doubt take on some local characteristics, but I think it would still essentially be haze. I don' thing it would have become Afghan hash plant.

Some of us have preserved landrace for up to 50 odd years indoors or outdoors in a variety of conditions, and it hasn't essentially changed the plant into something completely different.

If I took a random seed to Thailand and grew it in the same conditions as Thai stick would I end up with Thai Stick in 100 years? Very much doubt it.

 

[Donald Mallard]

It's a good question and I don't have the answer, but I think it is much longer than 30 years that some are suggesting.

I can take a haze seed that was first worked 50 years ago, and whether I grow it in the outdoors or indoors, anywhere in the world it will still have characteristics that are haze to more or less a degree. If I took that same haze and grew it in Afganistan outdoors for 30 years, it would no doubt take on some local characteristics, but I think it would still essentially be haze. I don' thing it would have become Afghan hash plant.

Some of us have preserved landrace for up to 50 odd years indoors or outdoors in a variety of conditions, and it hasn't essentially changed the plant into something completely different.

If I took a random seed to Thailand and grew it in the same conditions as Thai stick would I end up with Thai Stick in 100 years? Very much doubt it.

im inclined to agree chi ,
after all the definition requires something that has become unique due to its location and climate/environment,
i guess thats coupled with selection by the farmers ,
30 years is not that much overall,

thai stick in 100 years via thailand ,, well maybe not that exact same thing ,
selection is also based on those humans doing it ,
but it may well be something quite special and unique given those factors, particularly the tropical climate vs original,
certainly a very different plant to what had arrived 100 generations beforehand ...

 

[Thule]

I guess that's the difference. If I take a landrace strain with some genetic diversity (goes hand in hand) to a different locale and start open pollinating it there.. in a few years I might end up with a completely different variety. The environment might favor very different phenotypes and combinations than the previous one and landraces in general are very diverse genetically which is the key in adaptation.

I'm not sure I understand why people have a problem with the terminology. I read the definition on wikipedia and that's spot on for most of the stuff that gets posted here. Only when active selection is applied do we start drifting away from landrace territory. The term heirloom seems to (to me at least) imply higher than usual quality, which isn't automatically the case with some of the more rustic cultivars.