the "real" landrace debate

[farmerlion]

McNoodle, I'm sorry for such a long delay in this response. The Native American Indians don't have a landrace cannabis of heritage. The cannabis used came out of Mexico through traveling fur traders. There isn't any evidence that Native culture ever grew cannabis. Even maze is a Mexican culture not an Indian culture.

Cannabis was an opportunistic event for Native Americans not a developed culture. Even today with the opportunity to develop and grow cannabis legally. Most tribes aren't going to risk government assistance. The federal government has made many threats in an effort to control reservations. Compliance with whatever government regulations impose dictate most tribal policies.
peace farmerlion

 

[Lebanizer]

I personally believe that Cannabis and all other living beings were already there when the continents were still one huge super continent called Pangaea.

Unlikely, pangea is 300 million years ago, cannabis speareted from its close cousin Humulus (hop) circa 28 million years ago on the Tibetan plateau.

 

[marijuanamat]

Hemp was grown everywhere the British, Spanish and French went, its what the ropes and sails were made from. No hemp/cannabis, no large boats to cross the Atlantic. There is also evidence that cannabis made it to south america as far back as 1000bc, as cocaine somehow made it to Egypt back then, as it's been found in tombs and mummies. Cannabis originated from countries around Uzbekistan and spread from there. But who really knows, it's all speculation.

 

[Lebanizer]

Not just speculation no, it's analysis of fossil pollen.

 

[med-man]

Hemp was grown everywhere the British, Spanish and French went, its what the ropes and sails were made from. No hemp/cannabis, no large boats to cross the Atlantic. There is also evidence that cannabis made it to south america as far back as 1000bc, as cocaine somehow made it to Egypt back then, as it's been found in tombs and mummies. Cannabis originated from countries around Uzbekistan and spread from there. But who really knows, it's all speculation.

Tobacco / nicotine as well. Let's not forget the Phoenicians 3000 bc

 

[Thule]

Not just speculation no, it's analysis of fossil pollen.

Sauce?

 

[Piff_cat]

Can't leave tge jomon out . Taiwan honshu hokkaido Korea all have cannabis finds 10000 years old aprox. North East Asian cannabis has several unique characters including cannabigerol monomethyl ether and huge square stems with ladder like branches. Phillipines landcrace share several similarities with mango biche . Western mex landraces like El primo punta roja share these morphology.

 

[Lebanizer]

Sauce?

Green pepper for a good piece of beef with fries and bolognese for spaghetti but what does it have to do with the subject at hand ?

 

[goingrey]

From Sam's IC BIB thread...

Cannabis in Asia: its center of origin and early cultivation, based on a synthesis of subfossil pollen and archaeobotanical studies
John M. McPartland,· William Hegman ,· Tengwen Long
Vegetation History and Archaeobotany
doi:10.1007/s00334-019-00731-8
Biogeographers assign the Cannabis centre of origin to “Central Asia”, mostly based on wild-type plant distribution data. We sought greater precision by adding new data: 155 fossil pollen studies (FPSs) in Asia. Many FPSs assign pollen of either Cannabis or Humulus (C –H ) to collective names (e.g. Cannabis/Humulus or Cannabaceae). To dissect these aggregate data,
we used ecological proxies. C –H pollen in a steppe assemblage (with Poaceae, Artemisia, Chenopodiaceae) was identified as wild-type Cannabis. C –H pollen in a forest assemblage (Alnus, Salix, Quercus, Robinia , Juglans) was identified as Humulus . C –H pollen curves that upsurged alongside crop pollen were identified as cultivated hemp. Subfossil seeds (fruits) at archaeological sites also served as evidence of cultivation. All sites were mapped using geographic information system software. The oldest C –H pollen consistent with Cannabis dated to 19.6 ago (Ma), in northwestern China. However, Cannabis and Humulus diverged 27.8 Ma, estimated by a molecular clock analysis. We bridged the temporal gap between the divergence date and the oldest pollen by mapping the earliest appearance of Artemisia . These data converge on the northeastern Tibetan Plateau, which we deduce as the Cannabis centre of origin, in the general vicinity of Qinghai Lake. This co-localizes with the first steppe community that evolved in Asia. From there, Cannabis first dispersed west (Europe by 6 Ma) then east (eastern
China by 1.2 Ma). Cannabis pollen in India appeared by 32.6 thousand years (ka) ago. The earliest archaeological evidence was found in Japan, 10,000 bce , followed by China.

 

[Thule]

Green pepper for a good piece of beef with fries and bolognese for spaghetti but what does it have to do with the subject at hand ?

If there's evidence of cannabis pollen in Peru 1000 b.c I would like to see the source/sauce for that information.

 

[Donald Mallard]

Hemp was grown everywhere the British, Spanish and French went, its what the ropes and sails were made from. No hemp/cannabis, no large boats to cross the Atlantic. There is also evidence that cannabis made it to south america as far back as 1000bc, as cocaine somehow made it to Egypt back then, as it's been found in tombs and mummies. Cannabis originated from countries around Uzbekistan and spread from there. But who really knows, it's all speculation.

i doubt there was such thing as cocaine back then ,
id reckon its a newer concoction given the ingredients used to make it ,
more likely coca leaf was transported if in fact those mummies tested for such a substance ,
i very much doubt they were snorting cocaine ....

 

[Lebanizer]

If there's evidence of cannabis pollen in Peru 1000 b.c I would like to see the source/sauce for that information.

Lol ok you meant source !!! My original post mentions Tibet 28M ago not Peru in 1000 BC. The source is the one goinggrey posted above. Official URL is here.

 

[TheDarkStorm]

i doubt there was such thing as cocaine back then ,
id reckon its a newer concoction given the ingredients used to make it ,
more likely coca leaf was transported if in fact those mummies tested for such a substance ,
i very much doubt they were snorting cocaine ....

Lol....imagine wrapped up mummies snorting cocaine..lol.
on a serious note I think the tests did come up positive for cocaine...but Im not sure how the tests work...are they testing for the base substance or what...but I dont think it would be the same as the modern substance....maybe some crude early form made from the coca leaf like you say Donald.

 

[Piff_cat]

I'm thinkin coca leaves could have been used in a betel nut/ephedrine combo for energy qnd chewed. There are lots of different coca leaves in Asia but the synthesized concentrate probly came much later.

Peru is a very interesting subject for cannabis. In human genetic mitochondria research there is a haplotype present in Peru which links directly to the ainu of japan/Siberia. The jomon preceded the ainu. Japanese shinto religion and taosim both have cannabis elements and not just for hemp clothing. The "mammoth steppe" is a fascinating topic involving the last ice age. Different groups of people headed to hunt mammoth and other large prey near hokkaido. This was a time when landbridge was above water and many of the Japanese islands were also more accessible due to lower sea levels. Hokkaido is home to a prehistoric looking hemp that's for sure. Also there are rhododendrons there which synthesize a metabolite identical to cbc. This rhododendron is originally from Siberia. So it's very possible groups brought cannabis to the mammoth steppe- some stayed, some traveled overland and then south ending up in Peru. This sequence of events could provide quite a bit of diversity and explain the cannabinoid split due to different biotic pressures.

 

[yesum]

McNoodle, I'm sorry for such a long delay in this response. The Native American Indians don't have a landrace cannabis of heritage. The cannabis used came out of Mexico through traveling fur traders. There isn't any evidence that Native culture ever grew cannabis. Even maze is a Mexican culture not an Indian culture.

Cannabis was an opportunistic event for Native Americans not a developed culture. Even today with the opportunity to develop and grow cannabis legally. Most tribes aren't going to risk government assistance. The federal government has made many threats in an effort to control reservations. Compliance with whatever government regulations impose dictate most tribal policies.
peace farmerlion

I think you are correct. I noticed Snowhigh in the pics on this page and recall he said the Indians did have cannabis growing in Mexico and Panama at least, prior to the Spaniards arrival.

 

[Donald Mallard]

whats the consensus on what time period in a new place would define a landrace ??
100 years , 150 ??

 

[goingrey]

whats the consensus on what time period in a new place would define a landrace ??
100 years , 150 ??

The situation in both academia and the forums is the same. There is no consensus and everyone has their own definition.

Here are two reviews of the subject:

A.C. Zeven (1998) / Landraces: A review of definitions and classifications
https://ressources.semencespaysannes...hytica1998.pdf

Casañas et al (2017) / Toward an Evolved Concept of Landrace
https://www.f.rontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2017.00145/full

For a variety adapted to a certain environment for a long time Zeven suggests the term autochthonous landrace and for a recently introduced variety the term allochthonous landrace.

No time limit is mentioned as to which category a variety belongs to. Obviously it depends on the type of crop. For a wind pollinated annual plant like cannabis in my opinion not even 100 years is needed to adapt to the environment and become stable. More like 30 years or so. Incidentally, Zeven references a paper by Louette et al. (1997) where they define a term they call a local seed lot ... "grown in the area for more than 30 years".

 

[romanoweed]

wow!!!!!! this is best read i ever had about Landraces!
So, the enviromental Selection, and local Techniques shape Landraces alot. So much that they consider a Landrace contaminated with forgein Genes a local variety again after a given time. Cause the Enviromental selection and local farmingtechniques, such as date of sawing.

But then in the secound paper they try to make this theory more accurate, and they say that in a given Region there might evolve multiple Landraces, cause local Farmers might have selected in multiple diections, so at some point a Local Landrace splits into two or more different cultivar. Also they specify, that forgein inclusion of Genes might be a major reason why a landrace is like it is. (hybrid compositions as an important factor) And this gets reserched more with todays methodes of Gene-analysis.

 

[romanoweed]

my own Thoughts

what i am so eager to know is if we can compare the samples on phylos, and rule out forgein influence as a good thing. If the most "unique" rated LAndraces on phylos are superior in effect , then we could atleast be pretty firm in doing a pure-breeding project. Since its theoretically possible that hybridisation is never good..
Would be interesting..

-------

Also i recall an old anectote that the best Landraces are often hermie. And therefore the Scientists concluded that forgein influences are principially not creating the best landraces (cause hermies more often pollinate themselve/someone closeby- hence more inbreed)

I DONT wanna place my own thoughts over anything, i just say it would be a first interesting analysis, to possibly rule out many things.
It was apperant to me, comparing the Landrces "unique" factor, that one of the most legendary Landrace, the Thai, showed the most "genetical unique" readings. This might show that hybridisation wasnt happening in Thailand thet much, and therefore thai was one of the best... No other Landraces showed so much uniqueness on Phylos..

 

[willydread]

whats the consensus on what time period in a new place would define a landrace ??
100 years , 150 ??

I have often wondered, if within a few generations cannabis slowly changes, we can consider "landrace" those kush or skunk weed that are grown and stored on a family level in certain areas of the United States or Europe for 30, 40 o 50 years?
Ps It is not a provocation, I have often wondered really...