the Mexican Landraces Thread

[yesum]

I'll be updating about this plants amigos
Let you know any time soon!
Now enjoy your weekend!

Nomás no se vaya a poner muy pendejos!
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That one guy is gone. Pulque I believe is what they are drinking. Used to be a big deal and not so much now. Beer and Tequila are favored.

 

[ahortator]

Just a note about the knowledge and consumption of marijuana and its hashish in today's Spain, in times before the Conquest of Mexico.
Article from Patronato de la Alhambra about Nazari smoking pipes (from the Sultanate or Kingdom of Granada) and photos of pipes from approximately 900 AD to near 1500 AD:


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Although the use of hashish or Indian hemp was forbidden in al-Andalus, its consumption must have been commonplace judging by the smoking pipes of this period that have come down to us. It is not known when it began to be consumed. There are already some examples of pipes from the Caliphate period, such as those preserved in the Museo Arqueológico y Etnológico de Córdoba, like this example in the shape of a ship's prow found in Espejo or this other boat-shaped pile found in a Cordovan street.
In the Nasrid period, between the 13th and 15th centuries, it is known with certainty that the habit of smoking a pipe was common, as shown by the growing number of examples preserved in relation to previous periods. This is also attested to by the accounts of figures of the time, such as the religious Ibn Jamis Muhammad al-Ruayni, or the literati Ibn 'Asim al-Garnati and Ibn al Khatib, who mention this subject. The latter refers to some spaces in Granada during the period of Sultan Muhammad VI in which hashish was consumed. In this article we talk about the smoking pipes of the Alhambra Museum and, specifically, the specimens that can be seen in Room VII of the permanent exhibition. There is a wide variety of Hispano-Muslim smoking pipes, from simple spherical bowl shapes to pipes with more complex exterior decoration. But in general, they all follow a very similar model, change shapes, change size or decoration, but maintain the same structure. In general, they can be divided into two parts: a stove or bowl, which is the part where the substance to be smoked was burned; and an embouchure, a conduit that served as a draft and where the mouthpiece fitted. The nozzle would be quite thin, judging by the thickness of the mouthpiece, and would end up in a truncated cone shape, making it easier to suck through. These nozzles would have been made of an organic material, possibly wood or cane, so there is no archaeological record." (...)


https://www.alhambra-patronato.es/p...bFOUsmrcUq9e_3ljyPolQ8xlCISWoOPMWMBMvsmTFIsfQ

It is known Celts used Cannabis for its psychoactive properties. I also remember I have seen a picture, in the Font Quer Dioscorides book, of some clay pipe bowls found in Spain from pre-Roman times.

The presence of allele BT in the C. sativa gene pool suggests that introgression from C. indica might have played a role in the evolution of C. sativa . Wind?blown pollen may have contributed to allele migration between the two gene pools (Cabezudo et al., 1997). Relatively high BT frequencies (range 0.38–0.55) were detected in seven hemp accessions from Turkey, Spain, Italy, former Yugoslavia, and southern Russia, which are assignable to the southern eco?geographical group of C. sativa (Davidyan, 1972). Additional allozyme markers and morphological traits typical of C. indica were also observed in the southern group of C. sativa (Hillig, 2004, in press).

https://bsapubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.3732/ajb.91.6.966

Prior to prohibition Spanish hemp landraces had many plants with the BT allele for sure. Even the late fiber hemp strain bred by modern agronomists "Delta-Llosa" was forbiden because "too high" levels of THC.

 

[Montuno]

That one guy is gone. Pulque I believe is what they are drinking. Used to be a big deal and not so much now. Beer and Tequila are favored.

Je,je... Estará ido, pero el pulque no se le cae, je...

Si, yo también creo beben pulque (nunca lo he probado... Yo soy más de mezcal, o mejor, ron añejo, je...).


Heh heh... He may be gone, but he's not dropping his pulque, he...

Yeah, I think they drink pulque too (I've never tried it... I'm more of a mescal, or better, aged rum, he...).

Salud !

 

[therevverend]

We've talked about this before, if the Muslims in Spain were using pipes to smoke hashish it would be an astonishing, mind-blowing find because no other pipes have been discovered pre-Columbus in the old World. Besides two possible water pipe pieces in Africa. Pipes had been used in the New World to smoke tobacco but hashish wasn't smoked in the Old World until after the introduction of tobacco. I think it's likely it's a mistake, the pipes came later and the website got their dating mixed up. A search turns up nothing. I'd love to see some other verification, there's all sorts of mis-information posted on the web.

You realize this could raise all sorts of questions. For instance how were pipes invented and used in Spain, but didn't spread to the rest of Eurasia? Why were they made so well when they had just been invented? I wonder if they've been tested?

 

[Montuno]

We've talked about this before, if the Muslims in Spain were using pipes to smoke hashish it would be an astonishing, mind-blowing find because no other pipes have been discovered pre-Columbus in the old World. Besides two possible water pipe pieces in Africa. Pipes had been used in the New World to smoke tobacco but hashish wasn't smoked in the Old World until after the introduction of tobacco. I think it's likely it's a mistake, the pipes came later and the website got their dating mixed up. A search turns up nothing. I'd love to see some other verification, there's all sorts of mis-information posted on the web.

You realize this could raise all sorts of questions. For instance how were pipes invented and used in Spain, but didn't spread to the rest of Eurasia? Why were they made so well when they had just been invented? I wonder if they've been tested?

The website I have linked to is the official website of the Patronato de la Alhambra. It has several references to written testimonies at the time to the consumption of marijuana and hashish. It mentions how Room 7 of its Museum exhibits these pipes as part of its permanent collection.

This only about the Sultanate of Granada. But if we go back to the Caliphate period, here are examples from 900 to 1100 AD, preserved in Spanish museums:

Museum: Archaeological and Ethnological Museum of Cordoba

Inventory: CE005997

Generic Classification: Ceramic

Object/Document: Pipe
Material/Support Reddish white clay

Mold technique : Baking
Decoration: Incisa

Dimensions : Height = 2.50 cm; Minimum thickness = 0.40 cm; Length = 4 cm

Description:
Smoking pipe with a flat base, presenting two well differentiated parts: the first one presents a diagonal cut, at its end there is a circular hole where the cane would be placed to smoke. The second part is shaped like the bow of a ship, and is the bowl where the hashish, which is larger than the side hole, is placed. All the decoration is based on lines: in the part corresponding to the mouthpiece, on its sides appear concentric triangles, in the part corresponding to the bowl, we see a series of parallel lines.

Dating: 901=1100 After Christ.

Cultural Context/Style: Middle Ages Al-Andalus. Caliph

Use/function Smoking instrument

Place of Origin: Espejo(Campiña Baja (comarca), Córdoba)

Reasonable Classification: This piece gives us evidence that the habit of smoking hashish, a narcotic based on Indian hemp, was common. It is not known with certainty when it was introduced in Al-Andalus but its use was maintained later in the Nazarite era and also in the Christian era.
The examples preserved make it clear that there were pre-established forms made in moulds, in this case the piece is practically the same only the decoration varies from one piece that is in the Alhambra Museum with inventory number: 4673. All of them present a series of analogies due to their use: they consist of two parts, one where the grass would be placed to smoke the bowl and a mouthpiece with a truncated cone that serves as a shot to the bowl. It seems that they are pieces made in series, they present the same analogies: small format, with zoomorphic, geometric, anthropomorphic, geometric forms, etc.

Type of collection: Stable collection

Bibliography: MARINETTO, P.. Play and Recreation' in Living in Al-Andalus. Exhibition of Ceramics (S.IX-XV). 1993. Almeriense Institute of Studies Almediterranea
Exhibition of Hispano-Muslim Ceramics held in the Patio de las Luces of the Diputación Provincial de Almería 19 February-31 March.
Graphic Art Workshops
Granada-Almería,1993.

VV.AA. El Zoco. Economic life and traditional arts in Al-Andalus and Morocco. 1995. P. 141, fig. 102; The Andalusian legacy
Lunwerg Editores, S.A.
Barcelona-Madrid, 1995.

Comments: Not available for temporary exhibition according to current regulations

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

[Pineapple_Punch]

I grew a few of your Oaxaca'79S1 x Oaxacan elchischas. Some damn vigorous Plants, fastest rooting clones i ever had. Sadly i never saw them flowering, was on 12/12 at that time cause i had some other Plants as well, but the Oaxacan cross not started to flower.
Still have some fresh F2 Seeds of your Oaxacan12Fingers x Oaxacan cross someone else made a repro of not long ago.

Good luck with your actual Mexican run!

 

[therevverend]

I don't want to derail the thread anymore then we already have, it's a place to discuss and look at pictures of Mexican landraces. There's better places to discuss the history stuff, I'll try to wrap it up. I sent the museum a note asking for details about the pipes. Hopefully they'll get back to me. I notice their references are older, from the earlier 20th century, when dating and chemical analysis wasn't that great. Hopefully they'll get back to me, the problem is always $ someone has to take the time to analyze and test the pipes. The other potential pre-Columbus pipes in the Old World are all from Africa.

Cortes made multiple expeditions, not sure of the dates but he explored northwestern Mexico and Baja California in 1536. Cortes is an interesting guy, certainly a psychopath by modern standards but he wasn't a gold-crazed genocidal fool like Francisco Pizzaro and his shitty brothers. He showed a degree of respect to the culture and society he was conquering and demolishing and worked to integrate it into the new nation. Eventually got dragged back to Spain because he resisted turning Mexico into a slave state.

The Spanish hemp strains weren't psychoactive but they probably contained some THC. As cannabis acclimates to a new environment it's cannabinoids change, in hotter climates with shorter days it tends towards higher THC and lower amounts of CBD. Unless the hemp growers were selective in their breeding in a couple decades their hemp could stray towards the THC side. They'd most likely replace it with fresh seed from Spain to keep the breeding towards true hemp. This may be what the production limits set in 1550 were all about.

 

[Montuno]

I don't want to derail the thread anymore then we already have, it's a place to discuss and look at pictures of Mexican landraces. There's better places to discuss the history stuff, I'll try to wrap it up. I sent the museum a note asking for details about the pipes. Hopefully they'll get back to me. I notice their references are older, from the earlier 20th century, when dating and chemical analysis wasn't that great. Hopefully they'll get back to me, the problem is always $ someone has to take the time to analyze and test the pipes. The other potential pre-Columbus pipes in the Old World are all from Africa.

Cortes made multiple expeditions, not sure of the dates but he explored northwestern Mexico and Baja California in 1536. Cortes is an interesting guy, certainly a psychopath by modern standards but he wasn't a gold-crazed genocidal fool like Francisco Pizzaro and his shitty brothers. He showed a degree of respect to the culture and society he was conquering and demolishing and worked to integrate it into the new nation. Eventually got dragged back to Spain because he resisted turning Mexico into a slave state.

The Spanish hemp strains weren't psychoactive but they probably contained some THC. As cannabis acclimates to a new environment it's cannabinoids change, in hotter climates with shorter days it tends towards higher THC and lower amounts of CBD. Unless the hemp growers were selective in their breeding in a couple decades their hemp could stray towards the THC side. They'd most likely replace it with fresh seed from Spain to keep the breeding towards true hemp. This may be what the production limits set in 1550 were all about.

I don't know why in this thread you can't "investigate" how the Spanish seeds introduced in Mexico would be, but you can comment on personal opinions about the figure of Hernan Cortés...(by the way, I totally differ in your last opinion about him).
But about the Spanish seeds, since I have provided you with sources such as the Alhambra Museum or authors of the time..: On what historical sources (bibliographical and/or archaeological) do you base your statements ?

I still think that both the hemp introduced by the Spanish in Mexico first, and later by the Portuguese in Brazil, was psychoactive hemp...

Cheers!

 

[ahortator]

We've talked about this before, if the Muslims in Spain were using pipes to smoke hashish it would be an astonishing, mind-blowing find because no other pipes have been discovered pre-Columbus in the old World. Besides two possible water pipe pieces in Africa. Pipes had been used in the New World to smoke tobacco but hashish wasn't smoked in the Old World until after the introduction of tobacco. I think it's likely it's a mistake, the pipes came later and the website got their dating mixed up. A search turns up nothing. I'd love to see some other verification, there's all sorts of mis-information posted on the web.

You realize this could raise all sorts of questions. For instance how were pipes invented and used in Spain, but didn't spread to the rest of Eurasia? Why were they made so well when they had just been invented? I wonder if they've been tested?

I think the answer is very easy. Christianity.

When Columbus arrived to America in his first trip, they were astonished to see Caribbean people smoking. One of the men of the crew adopted the habit. When authorities found him in Spain exhaling clouds of smoke from his mouth he was imprisoned for 7 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigo_de_Jerez

I must look for the book. The pipes picture is in the introduction of the modern edition made by Pío Font Quer. As it is currently still sold it is difficult to find it in PDF. The one I saw is in a library 150km from my home.

Online I can only find the 16th century version written by Andrés Laguna. But the clay pipes picture was added in the 1960's version.

https://www.wdl.org/es/item/10632/view/1/384/

 

[harvestreaper]

im surprised to hear people still believe columbus discovered america ,,plenty of evidence all over the world showing advanced civilizations with similar ideology s 1000s of years before he came along ,,it takes quite a leap of imagination to think we were all sub human half apes with no knowledge of plants,, particularly plant medicines pre columbus

 

[Montuno]

im surprised to hear people still believe columbus discovered america ,,plenty of evidence all over the world showing advanced civilizations with similar ideology s 1000s of years before he came along ,,it takes quite a leap of imagination to think we were all sub human half apes with no knowledge of plants,, particularly plant medicines pre columbus

Your last argument is a total misrepresentation...

And no one is offensively prejudging your historical knowledge or treating you like an ape.
I don't know if in your prejudices and doubts towards the proofs and evidences that are presented to you, you are behaving the same way...

Cheers and good vibes...

 

[harvestreaper]

Your last argument is a total misrepresentation...

And no one is offensively prejudging your historical knowledge or treating you like an ape.
I don't know if in your prejudices and doubts towards the proofs and evidences that are presented to you, you are behaving the same way...

Cheers and good vibes...

ouch lol i didnt take anything personal an i dont think im prejudice to anyone here ,, sorry if i appeared that way ,im certainly not interested in arguments ,its just when there so much strong evidence of advanced civilisations predating the times of columbus it would seem very likely people,, cannabis and other plants were transported many years before,,,but hey dont let me stop the thread ,, was just a point of view ,,,i do admit however to having little faith in the truth of the history were generally taught by our governments/schools ,so if not believing what proven bullshitters teach me is predudice i guess i am guilty of that ,,,peace

ps let me be clear an say england uk when i refer to proven bullshitters in government before anyone accuse me of slandering there land ,,if youve got honest government ,, god bless you

 

[pinkus]

a thread up my ally

a thread up my ally

Hey y'all. Just a lover of old school Mex and a friend told me this is the place to be. So here I am subscribing.

 

[Montuno]

ouch lol i didnt take anything personal an i dont think im prejudice to anyone here ,, sorry if i appeared that way , im certainly not interested in arguments ,its just when there so much strong evidence of advanced civilisations predating the times of columbus it would seem very likely people,, cannabis and other plants were transported many years before,,,but hey dont let me stop the thread ,, was just a point of view ,,,i do admit however to having little faith in the truth of the history were generally taught by our governments/schools ,so if not believing what proven bullshitters teach me is predudice i guess i am guilty of that ,,,peace

ps let me be clear an say england uk when i refer to proven bullshitters in government before anyone accuse me of slandering there land ,,if youve got honest government ,, god bless you

Not only are you not interested in arguments that contradict your opinions: you also tegiverse or misread those arguments:
Who's saying that smoking pipes or hashish consumption were invented in Islamic Spain, for example?:

We've talked about this before, if the Muslims in Spain were using pipes to smoke hashish it would be an astonishing, mind-blowing find because no other pipes have been discovered pre-Columbus in the old World. Besides two possible water pipe pieces in Africa. Pipes had been used in the New World to smoke tobacco but hashish wasn't smoked in the Old World until after the introduction of tobacco. I think it's likely it's a mistake, the pipes came later and the website got their dating mixed up. A search turns up nothing. I'd love to see some other verification, there's all sorts of mis-information posted on the web.

You realize this could raise all sorts of questions. For instance how were pipes invented and used in Spain, but didn't spread to the rest of Eurasia? Why were they made so well when they had just been invented? I wonder if they've been tested?

(!!??)...

...And here I leave you extensions of some beautiful pipes (between 800 and 1500 AD) for cannabis and hash from Islamic Spain. You can see them live in the Alhambra Museum (among others); (images from the Department of Culture of the Government of Andalusia (Spain):

 

[harvestreaper]

Not only are you not interested in arguments that contradict your opinions: you also tegiverse or misread those arguments:
Who's saying that smoking pipes or hashish consumption were invented in Islamic Spain, for example?:

(!!??)...

...And here I leave you extensions of some beautiful pipes (between 800 and 1500 AD) for cannabis and hash from Islamic Spain. You can see them live in the Alhambra Museum (among others); (images from the Department of Culture of the Government of Andalusia (Spain):

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who are you to say what im interested in lol you seem very fast to judge people ,,,i have no problem with arguments that conflict any opinion you also seem very keen to make it personal,, opinions are fickle they are merely mental masturbation some do it more than others ,or to put it another way some people are much bigger wankers than others ,anything that conflicts truth which can be proven of course a rational person would disagree with i didnt get your script there ,,,,,i made no mention of the origin of pipes so dont put words in my mouth or imaginary quotes i already apologised if i came across wrong to anyone ,, seems to me your hypocritically the one getting bent out of shape when presented with a different point of view to your own opinion,,, this kinda convo has no value other than revealing your character if you want to get personal just pm im sure i could think of some things to reply with but ill not clutter up this thread any more ,,

 

[harvestreaper]

as a small apology for my negative imputs ,,this girls daddy was from an "heirloom" acapulco gold line

 

[therevverend]

don't know why in this thread you can't "investigate" how the Spanish seeds introduced in Mexico would be, but you can comment on personal opinions about the figure of Hernan Cortés...(by the way

You can comment about whatever you want wherever you want. I didn't start this thread and I'd rather discuss the history of pipes, the introduction of hemp to the Americas, and other related history topics in threads devoted to the subject. Elchischas started this thread and Mexican landraces, his pictures and discussion of current seed preservation is more interesting to me and I'm guessing most other posters.

I totally differ in your last opinion about him

How so? Cortes was a man of his times. He got away with murder, literally. Likely strangled his wife to death but was too powerful and popular to be punished. As I stated, we in the modern age would and do view him as a murderous psychopath. In his time he was enormously popular, befriended and was allied with Indian nations, along with the conquistadors who followed him on a crazy suicide mission. When he was reported dead during his trip to Honduras his wealth and property was seized. When he returned alive the natives welcomed him with rejoicing and his fellow Spanish joined him against the usurpers from Spain. He spread disease and continued the wave of genocide and destruction that followed the Europeans across the continent.

The Indians in Mexico were treated better then they were in South America. Cortes punished looting and rape by death, payed for the goods his army seized. To quote from the 'New World Encyclopedia':

His letters to Charles V are filled with warnings and pleas. He begged that only settlers be allowed in New Spain, not adventurers "intent on consuming the country's substance and then abandoning it." He asked for humble priests who would convert by pious example, not high prelates who would "dispose of the gifts of the Church and waste them in pomp and other vices." He recommended that lawyers be banned on the grounds that they encouraged contention in order to profit from the ensuing litigation. Most of all, he deplored the practice of repaying services to the crown with Indian slaves to work land grants, yet he had no other way of rewarding his own followers.

Was he a genuine nice guy or was he looking out for his own interests? He knew with his Indian allies on his side the Spanish throne would have to go through him. I'll stand by what I said earlier, Cortes was certainly a monster but the indigenous people are much more incorporated into the nation of Mexico then in other New World countries. For instance Brazil, USA, Peru, Argentina, etc. Cortes's used the annihilation of the Taino people in Cuba as an example of the wrong way to build a new nation. Where are the Taino today? Compared to Columbus Cortes was kind.

 

[Montuno]

who are you to say what im interested in lol you seem very fast to judge people ,,,i have no problem with arguments that conflict any opinion you also seem very keen to make it personal,, opinions are fickle they are merely mental masturbation some do it more than others ,or to put it another way some people are much bigger wankers than others ,anything that conflicts truth which can be proven of course a rational person would disagree with i didnt get your script there ,,,,, i made no mention of the origin of pipes so dont put words in my mouth or imaginary quotes i already apologised if i came across wrong to anyone ,, seems to me your hypocritically the one getting bent out of shape when presented with a different point of view to your own opinion,,, this kinda convo has no value other than revealing your character if you want to get personal just pm im sure i could think of some things to reply with but ill not clutter up this thread any more ,,

!!!???

We've talked about this before, if the Muslims in Spain were using pipes to smoke hashish it would be an astonishing, mind-blowing find because no other pipes have been discovered pre-Columbus in the old World. Besides two possible water pipe pieces in Africa. Pipes had been used in the New World to smoke tobacco but hashish wasn't smoked in the Old World until after the introduction of tobacco. I think it's likely it's a mistake, the pipes came later and the website got their dating mixed up. A search turns up nothing. I'd love to see some other verification, there's all sorts of mis-information posted on the web.

You realize this could raise all sorts of questions. For instance how were pipes invented and used in Spain, but didn't spread to the rest of Eurasia? Why were they made so well when they had just been invented? I wonder if they've been tested?

...enought to me...
Bye n best vibes.

 

[Breadwizard]

Landraces! Here's Prima Damma from Original Delicatessen, unknown Mexican from RC Clarke.
This is the "krinkle leaf phenotype" that pops up from time to time in the line. Very peppery smell in veg.

 

[ahortator]

Where are the Taino today?

Barely alive! But there are some still!

https://youtu.be/I_Qgju9_Opg

https://youtu.be/8XyxmxPSkuM

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20190205-cubas-tano-people-a-flourishing-culture-believed-extinct

Going back to Mexico, and about Cortés I think this is a great ducumentary about him made by the National Autonomous University of Mexico. I don't know if you can turn on English subtitles.

https://youtu.be/23qjsN1xFlU

There is a proverb which says "The conquest was made by the Indians and independence by the Spanish". Because if it is not for the help of other native people like Tlaxcalans and other enemies of the Aztecs, Spaniards would have been certainly defeated by the Mexicas. Later the independence was sought after specially by the creole aristocracy and bourgeoisie.