The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

[Arnold.]

That probably is a good suggestion Jidoka, but I do not have access to the sunshine 4 mix.

Some people who love this plant do not live in the USA

I do have access to chicken manure pellets. Mine is 4-3-3 npk + 6.4 Ca and 0.6 Mg.

Thanks for your valuable input throughout the threads. I read a lot of yours.

 

[jidoka]

Can you get Premeire Peat

Edit...what kind of peat do you have?

Do you have soft rock, bone meal or tsp? Hi cal lime?

I like your chicken poop

 

[Arnold.]

I'm afraid not. It is a long distance for soil, I guess it would be too expensive to import since there are peat bogs not too far from here.

I do have every element in fertilizer form and I do understand most calculations. Just need a good basic medium that I can repeat.
Soft rock is something that I can not source here, but I got TSP, bonemeal, SOP, Maerl, gypsum and all the micro's.

My peat comes from Latvia and is called 'blond peat' bag says:
EC 10mS/m, pH 4.2, organic matter 95%

unfortunately it is a fine grind, I would have liked coarse a bit better.

Why no leaf mold? I would think the life in there would be a good thing for the plants and the balance.

 

[ledo]

That probably is a good suggestion Jidoka, but I do not have access to the sunshine 4 mix.

Some people who love this plant do not live in the USA

I do have access to chicken manure pellets. Mine is 4-3-3 npk + 6.4 Ca and 0.6 Mg.

Thanks for your valuable input throughout the threads. I read a lot of yours.

does the 52N parallel even intersect USA anywhere, perhaps Alaska - too many of us Mericans are ethnocentric

 

[jidoka]

I am not a fan of leaf mold because it is going to be high K. Probably does have good microbe life though. But a few cups will give you that or make a tea with it...multiply those microbes

I have actually heard of the Latvian peat. If it is the fine stuff I would up the perlite to 25%

But not being familiar with that peat I can’t give a real recommendation. I am guessing it is going to need some lime (or Maerl if it will break down) to buffer the acidity of the peat

Maybe someone here knows how to test for that amount

 

[Arnold.]

My maerl has a fine grind that would help with breakdown. But I just read upon lime and learned something new: I always thought any lime was CaCO3, seems to be wrong.
If you talk about high Ca lime, what numbers of Ca are we looking at?
And I guess it ain't CaCO3 (like my Maerl), right? Which will indeed be slower to break down than CaO or Ca(OH)2.

Would be great if someone knows how to calculate the lime need to up the soil pH and can link me up. But I can do a 24h distilled water + soil pH reading as well, isn't it?

I'm open to sent samples of the peat and the leaf mold to a lab, but let's wait for growingcrazy to chime in. I think he has tested leaf mold before.

Won't a medium of solely peat lack CEC? I have no idea what the average peat analysis would look like, so just guessing.

 

[jidoka]

Peat will have a cec > 100. But it will weigh far less than soil. That plus all the organic material make conventional soil tests questionable in my mind

If you are set on leaf mold go ahead and get a test. Then you can add other ferts to work with those numbers

Hi cal lime is gonna be 34-40% Ca. It is co3. If you do the test you mentioned use the maerl

 

[Arnold.]

Aha! I assumed the low EC on the bag meant a low CEC as well, but that is clearly not right. Just not a lot of available nutrients.
And thanks for the info on the Ca in that case my Maerl is indeed high Ca lime at 36% Ca out of calciumcarbonate.

Any suggestion how to get my peat tested then?

Do you think I would fuck up if I assume peat does not give a lot of nutrients and grow in a peat - perlite mix with a balanced fertilizer mix added? That is without a test.
I'm not set on leaf mold, the only thing I want is a base soil out of readily available components that I can work with. I'm hesitant on coco cause it is too far away from my experiences with my mostly 'organic' approach at my vegetable/fruit garden.

How do other folks go with the questionability of soil tests for peat (based mediums)? (edit: just skimmed through biggred's thread and noticed this is a difficult question, but still plenty of folks are doing tests with peat mediums, right?)

 

[growingcrazy]

https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Plant_Nutrients_in_Municipal_Leaves.htm

I haven't tested leaf mold by itself specifically, only in mixes. I would still go 5-1-1 and use your leaf mold as 1 part with the peat and perl. Adjust to test results. The leaf mold shouldn't have an excess of anything if it is well composted. Test the EC and pH before using it if your concerned.

You will need to find out how much lime you need to hit your target pH. I like to make a cubic foot of soil, break that down to 7 parts and add a certain amount of lime to each one with only enough water to moisten the mix. Put them all in separate plastic bags in a warm spot and let them cook for 2 weeks. Dry each sample and test further for pH. Or use a meter if you have one in the moist soil...

I am not a huge fan of the Tom Hill mix, it is very situation based. In those specific situations, it will do well. Still needs supplemented in flower...the ground around the pots outside loves it though from all the N leaching...

Are you making a mix for indoor or outdoors Arnold?

 

[Arnold.]

Yes, I will go that route. I like the buffer capacity that compost brings.

I do not have a soil pH meter. How do I measure the pH for this kind of soil?
With volume? 1 part soil + 1 part distilled water?
Or by weight? 100g soil + 100g water?

I imagine these will give a different reading.

Why do you dry your mix before measuring if I may ask? (edit: probably because you weigh )

This is an indoor mix. Outdoors I never grow in pots.

 

[jidoka]

I will take that bet on leaf mold being balanced. How hard do you reckon it is to get Ca to tree leaf?

Anyways I know someone that deals with a gh that uses Lithawaniun peat that comes in with a ph of 4.5. 4.5 lbs of hical buffers it to a ph of 6. So at least an approximate idea to test around

 

[ledo]

I will take that bet on leaf mold being balanced. How hard do you reckon it is to get Ca to tree leaf?

Anyways I know someone that deals with a gh that uses Lithawaniun peat that comes in with a ph of 4.5. 4.5 lbs of hical buffers it to a ph of 6. So at least an approximate idea to test around

View attachment 453434

especially by the point when the leaf has fallen from the tree, think about what that process entails... with that said, I gather all my leaves and even some of my neighbors and stick them as part of my huge compost pile which everything goes into and gets mixed together, it's a small piece to my puzzle so it doesn't need to be perfect going in, mho.....

 

[jidoka]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog

This stuff composts a little longer than your avg leaf mold pile without magically becoming balanced

 

[Arnold.]

So you say peat-perlite only?
I can do a small side by side.

Which lab/test would you recommend for my peat sample?

 

[jidoka]

No I am just messing around.

Try the 5-1-1 with leaf mold plus some maerl. Test that with an m3.

Post those results and we can go from there. Indoors you are gonna need fairly quick release ferts

 

[growingcrazy]

A bog...I know a guy with one of those things...

Not looking for balance, but a good base. 80% of mixes sold have worse balance than straight leaf mold.

Isn't it the French that are huge leaf mould nuts for horticultural use?

 

[growingcrazy]

Yes, I will go that route. I like the buffer capacity that compost brings.

I do not have a soil pH meter. How do I measure the pH for this kind of soil?
With volume? 1 part soil + 1 part distilled water?
Or by weight? 100g soil + 100g water?

I imagine these will give a different reading.

Why do you dry your mix before measuring if I may ask? (edit: probably because you weigh )

This is an indoor mix. Outdoors I never grow in pots.

I go by volume. If the soil is damp, you don't have a full cup of medium, you have a cup of medium and water. Some dry, some don't...I feel more accurate by drying.

Also, I use litmus paper and/or a pH pen to get my results.

 

[Arnold.]

All right, got the medium mixed up. After cooking I'll test the pH, measure bulk density and sent it to spectrum.

Which medium pH do I shoot for? Around 6.8?

And what is the difference between a K1 and K3 test from Spectrum? Never really understood that, just followed directions.

Is the K3 a test where they use the actual weight of the sample and thus give ppm's in grams of element/weight of medium?

And with K1 they use a scoop that acts as a weight estimate thus giving skewed weight ppm's for soils/mediums that do not follow the 1cc=1g estimate.

 

[growingcrazy]

k1 assumes the weight of a scoop. K3 weighs out the soil to go into solution.

6.5-6.6 it will most likely rise slightly over the next months as the maerl is broken down.

On the ph test, I mix my lime with water and then water the soil I am using for testing. This gets the lime reaction to happen quicker.

It is also handy to do all testing on dry medium since that is what you need to find bulk density.

I will try to get to your other message today Arnold.

 

[growingcrazy]

So lets have a quick talk about TH mix...

50 lbs of bone, lets assume 4-12-0, the original mix is roughly 36 cubic feet of base + 50 lbs bone, 100 lbs 3-2-2 chicken compost.

Now lets first assume this is field soil density...what kind of PPM is that?

Bone meal:
N - 1200 PPM
P2O5 - 3600 PPM ( P ~1600)

SupRgreen:
N - 1800 PPM
P2O5 - 1200 PPM ( P 530)
K2O - 1200 PPM (K 1000)

So, 3000 PPM N, 2100 P and 1000 K in field soil. In a mix weighing 1/4 of that in bulk density, all those numbers are quadrupled... Speaking of balance?

It works because a lot of the N is slow release from the bone, some is used to fuel decomposition and the rest is leached to the sub-soil. Some K gets pushed out from the 20 lbs of gypsum that is recommended in the original mix also...

Tom Hill mix needs large containers and spring rains to make them perform as best they can.

How much Fe and Na do you think the Bone and SupR bring to the mix?

Why post this? End results are what matters. Science isn't perfect, experimenting is always your best learning tool.