The Haze discussion thread

[OldCoolSativa]

haha ,
the point is , he got seeds from sam ,
who only sold stuff he made from 76 onwards ,

Donald, with all due respect, your and Sam's side of the story depends entirely upon this premise, that Sam only sold seeds he made from '76 onwards. When debating two sides of a story, always check your premises. BigHerb relies on the premise that RL and G were the only haze brothers; again, check your premises.

Consider these facts, that can be verified elsewhere, beyond Nevil and Sam.

1. The Brothers of Eternal Love, aka the Hippie Mafia, were actively collecting seeds from the best herb in the world beginning in the mid 1960s. Watch Endless Summer, made in 1966, and read about its production and its co-star, Mike Hynsen, and his involvement in the Brotherhood of Eternal Love. It wasn't only surfing around the world, they were sampling the best weed they could find and they were bringing the seeds home. Read Jerry Beisler’s The Bandit of Kabul: Counterculture Adventures Along the Hashish Trail and Beyond. Read Nick Schou's Orange Sunshine. Read the congressional reports from 1974 about their investigations and documentation of their prosecution of the Brotherhood, and educate yourself on when and where they were growing weed. The BOEL was out of control and flaunting authority in their LSD manufacturing / distribution and hashish smuggling, but it's clear their more low-drag operators were producing weed domestically as well as in places like Costa Rica. Read everything you can find about the BOEL and historical marijuana cultivation areas and practices at that time, and you'll start to get the true back story about haze, or at least what I refer to as primal haze, of which Nevil was among the last recipients of viable seed. Hint - primal haze was probably of more exotic parentage than three flavors of Colombian.
2. Sam was part of BOEL. Sam's background lines up perfectly with BOEL tradecraft. Southern California raised. Spent time on the Hippie Hash Trail with his wife (that must've been fun). He's always used a pseudonym, he still does to this day; his name isn't Sam. He has told me he met John Griggs, BOEL founder who died in 1969. So it's pretty clear that while Sam wasn't with BOEL from their very beginning, he was in their orbit at least when they were active.
3. Next, consider what Nevil has written about his encounter with Sam and about the few plants he got out of those early batches of seeds. First, the germination rate was consistent with 16-year-old seeds (1985-1969). Second, he has said that they were clearly valuable to Sam and he was reluctant to part with them, but he was destitute and Nevil offered him good money. Most importantly, Nevil said other seeds he got to pop were early finishers, and clearly hybrids of haze with something faster. The only haze hybrids Sam has talked about that he made were skunk haze, Thai haze, and Indian haze. The way Sam has told his story, the hybrids came later, after he had "original" haze locked down. Why did Nevil encounter hybrids in the early seeds? Because they were likely made by BOEL "brothers" growing out some seeds from their best pot, in an effort to reproduce them, or simply to grow their own kick-ass weed. The brothers were more likely chucking pollen than breeding in the late 1960s. Sam clearly brought breeding knowledge to the table at some point, but I doubt any breeding done in 1969 would live up to the standards that we now take for granted.
4. Now, connect the dots. Sam was BOEL and had access to seeds made from the best weed in the world. Those seeds were made from plants grown from bagseed, consistent with the pollen-chuck aspects of Herb's tale. Exactly how and where he got the seeds he sold Nevil is something that Sam will probably take to his grave. He was destitute in Holland, and sold some or most of his prized genetics to Nevil. One thing Nevil was certainly good at in his breeding efforts was to source the very best cultivars as a starting point. Nevil knew he was getting something special, and he paid Sam handsomely for it. To insist that Sam only sold seeds he made after 1976 is to ignore what was going on in the world before, behind and beyond Sam.

 

[willydread]

Donald, with all due respect, your and Sam's side of the story depends entirely upon this premise, that Sam only sold seeds he made from '76 onwards. When debating two sides of a story, always check your premises. BigHerb relies on the premise that RL and G were the only haze brothers; again, check your premises.

Consider these facts, that can be verified elsewhere, beyond Nevil and Sam.

1. The Brothers of Eternal Love, aka the Hippie Mafia, were actively collecting seeds from the best herb in the world beginning in the mid 1960s. Watch Endless Summer, made in 1966, and read about its production and its co-star, Mike Hynsen, and his involvement in the Brotherhood of Eternal Love. It wasn't only surfing around the world, they were sampling the best weed they could find and they were bringing the seeds home. Read Jerry Beisler’s The Bandit of Kabul: Counterculture Adventures Along the Hashish Trail and Beyond. Read Nick Schou's Orange Sunshine. Read the congressional reports from 1974 about their investigations and documentation of their prosecution of the Brotherhood, and educate yourself on when and where they were growing weed. The BOEL was out of control and flaunting authority in their LSD manufacturing / distribution and hashish smuggling, but it's clear their more low-drag operators were producing weed domestically as well as in places like Costa Rica. Read everything you can find about the BOEL and historical marijuana cultivation areas and practices at that time, and you'll start to get the true back story about haze, or at least what I refer to as primal haze, of which Nevil was among the last recipients of viable seed. Hint - primal haze was probably of more exotic parentage than three flavors of Colombian.
2. Sam was part of BOEL. Sam's background lines up perfectly with BOEL tradecraft. Southern California raised. Spent time on the Hippie Hash Trail with his wife (that must've been fun). He's always used a pseudonym, he still does to this day; his name isn't Sam. He has told me he met John Griggs, BOEL founder who died in 1969. So it's pretty clear that while Sam wasn't with BOEL from their very beginning, he was in their orbit at least when they were active.
3. Next, consider what Nevil has written about his encounter with Sam and about the few plants he got out of those early batches of seeds. First, the germination rate was consistent with 16-year-old seeds (1985-1969). Second, he has said that they were clearly valuable to Sam and he was reluctant to part with them, but he was destitute and Nevil offered him good money. Most importantly, Nevil said other seeds he got to pop were early finishers, and clearly hybrids of haze with something faster. The only haze hybrids Sam has talked about that he made were skunk haze, Thai haze, and Indian haze. The way Sam has told his story, the hybrids came later, after he had "original" haze locked down. Why did Nevil encounter hybrids in the early seeds? Because they were likely made by BOEL "brothers" growing out some seeds from their best seeds, in an effort to reproduce them, or simply to grow their own kick-ass weed. The brothers were more likely chucking pollen than breeding in the late 1960s. Sam clearly brought breeding knowledge to the table at some point, but I doubt any breeding done in 1969 would live up to the standards that we now take for granted.
4. Now, connect the dots. Sam was BOEL and had access to seeds made from the best weed in the world. Those seeds were made from plants grown from bagseed, consistent with the pollen-chuck aspects of Herb's tale. Exactly how and where he got the seeds he sold Nevil is something that Sam will probably take to his grave. He was destitute in Holland, and sold some or most of his prized genetics to Nevil. One thing Nevil was certainly good at in his breeding efforts was to source the very best cultivars as a starting point. Nevil knew he was getting something special, and he paid Sam handsomely for it. To insist that Sam only sold seeds he made after 1976 is to ignore what was going on in the world behind and beyond Sam.

I agree 99% with you ... The thing that intrigues me most is that the Haze brothers have never come out, not even recently, I mean, in a world like ours they would be successful just for being the famous brothers....

 

[OldCoolSativa]

They're probably still concerned about RICO charges, so they wisely keep their mouths shut. They don't want fame, they just want to be left the fuck alone, like most older folks.

 

[ojd]

They're probably still concerned about RICO charges, so they wisely keep their mouths shut. They don't want fame, they just want to be left the fuck alone, like most older folks.

And or were just a part of the Boel oldcoolsativa mentions in his post and not totaly responsible for the Haze , and was a much bigger story and made yearly outdoors by different members of the Boel each year so nobody was directly responsible or able to make claim to Haze .
More like a continued grow year after year like many traditional farmers , they collect seed from harvest and plant again also adding new varietys from retuning Boel members from travels retuning with best seeds found in pot etc etc year after year, that sounds like why nobody can make claim to being the creator of Haze.

 

[mr.brunch]

He may well have been eager to sell the seeds, but I don’t think sam was destitute- remember he was part of the green team (wernard sent him the tickets to join them, because of the skunk) who were providing the coffeeshops all over Holland.
many many greenhouses.

 

[mr.brunch]

He may well have been eager to sell the seeds, but I don’t think sam was destitute- remember he was part of the green team (wernard sent him the tickets to join them, because of the skunk) who were providing the coffeeshops all over Holland.
many many greenhouses.

 

[JohnnyChicago]

I think that Sam (who has repeatedly said not to trust Nevil) gave Nevil "second best" seeds, perhaps for money, perhaps to screw him, I don't know, naively ignoring Nevil's talent ... Simple, isn't it?

From the breeding point of view, and not the historical, I do believe Nevil got the very best line. The one that made the history, after being outcrossed to the right Afghani by Nevil. SamS might have known the line was special, but didnt know that by outcrossing it to the very right afghani the magic would happen that happened.

And I am convinced Nevil got an 1:1 or seeds that share one parental side. And if that was the case, the other lines might have been catalogued the same way if they come from the same cource. I guess Sams made clear he loved his OH mother for its great high. But always did recommend to use OH as male.
He did even tell us where to search...

 

[Hammerhead]

You clearly need to do some research Hammer Rudi most of it is high CBD yes and i agree with you in that it should be trashed but some have high THC this is fact wild populations in the Czech Republic alone has THC and low THC examples.

Sometimes you should just not post anything buddy. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[bigherb]

Old school sativa

some imagination with that post , I responded before I read it all

Boel had nothing to do with Haze , could 69 punto Rojo have come from there connects/ shipment maybe . But G never mentioned anything about Boel

Sams was not part of Boel , he was also not part of the Haze creation or distribution with the Originator. He did not collect select or pollinate the Original Haze during its birth . His work was done solely with out G and after asking permission to preserve and spread


This is how the story becomes a fantasy, The story has been told . More details or accuracy of dates can be filled in but the Origin will not change . Maybe one of the 3 brothers from NJ can share his thoughts on the varieties he sold and sampled as he was / is a great writer

It’s fun but when replying to outrageous ideas and repeating what’s already said the convo becomes frustrating. I can only imagine how Sams feels

more brothers than G n RL lolz . They were not brothers Sams gave them that tag they only worked together for a few seasons because RL had a green house and G wanted in . RL was not there until 71 I believe , Soo what would he know about the origin

There we’re 3 brothers from New Jersey who went to college in Santa Cruz . They sold much weight n brought loads back East . I’ve spoke with one who is a great writer and still in SC today .

It gets me frustrated and I was only told the story I can imagine how those who lived it feel . I only know what I was told but after doing my homework the great writer is successful and well known in his field . Public writing and Pictures from the 70’s also prove the timeline

ive only repeated what I was told but after my research what I was told is fact as far as I have been able to see


1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

Ah well, you can be thankful that the seeds fell into my hands, otherwise you wouldn't know what I'm talking about.
N.

Yes we are very grateful , and is very true this quote because both Sam and Nevil had access to Haze , and if the Sam camp is to to be believed Sam had access to much more Haze seeds and look what was produced from sam Sk1 HZ , Thai Hz by the millions of seeds from his greenhouse and yes some very nice things were found, but Nevil opened the worlds eyes to Haze with his world changing hybrids, especially NL5 Haze , NL5 Haze X's and of course the best of them all Nevil Haze.

Nevil was a smart man and realised that people love Haze taste/High but hated that long flowering time and produced some if not the worlds best Haze hybrids ever seen , and they were that good the clones are still alive and active 30 plus nearly 40 years later.

wait until we see what Nevil did with his last creations before he passed ( RIP) , then we will see some new blood in the same old Haze game thats been worked like a Dutch whore.
Lo
Nevil , still the Haze master after all these years.

I challenge any real Haze head in these Haze threads to grow out some of these new Haze's from Nevils work and bring your thoughts/Findings , good or bad to these threads. No grow journal needed.

Not sure of the intention of quoting my post

I respect your work and want peace amongst us all but I do call it how it is . There should be no sides amongst Haze lovers just difference of opinion. But we can’t have an opinion on certain Facts

My response to you was regarding the possibility that Nevil got thousands of seeds from Sams that were 66-70 stock . Common sense would reveal the probability but you as a breeder can speak from experience collecting and selecting

Im thankful to Nevil for all his work , I love his Haze hybrids and other works .

I love details and I love history, history has been written but has all the truth been told .

How a masterpiece is created is only important if you want to be a master .

1luvbigherb

 

[OldCoolSativa]

I respect your opinion, herb, and I'd love a chance to smoke some real NYC haze with you some day. You've been told a story by Sam and by an intelligent someone in Santa Cruz in a phone call, and you take it as fact, just like Hempy takes what he heard in phone conversations with Nevil as fact. Don't you see that you could both be right, and that the complete story remains untold by either party? I set out my reasoning clearly and it ties the larger story together. Is it possible that Sam and RL actually did have BOEL connections but decided not to share that with you? Sam has kept it under wraps for decades, why wouldn't the dude from NJ? Sam met John Griggs; that's an unmistakable BOEL connection, and BOEL are known to have collected bagseed from the best weed they found around the world, and to have operated commercial grows inside and outside the US. I laid it all out for you. Your version of the truth is based on the premise that you have been told the complete truth by all parties. Check your premises and keep your mind open.

 

[bigherb]

What is wrong with you mate why not just drop it and accept that there is Sam's version and there is Nevil's version and move on.

What i find odd is the big holes in the Sam haze story now as a result of bigherbs article and this seams to not bother you or the others attacking Nevil so tell us Donald how can the Haze be both a 3 way Colombian hybrid and a pure Colombian ?.

Dark touches on some valid point.

Hempy

Brother there are no sides , it’s just a difference of opinion or outlook . There should be nothing but love on this site especially the Haze forums .

Remember it’s not my story , I’m just sharing what I was told and what has been posted

Do you recall Sams talking about j n rl the Haze brothers ?

Sams has said j is G and In another post j helped G in the mountains before RL was around

Sams also called R the main grower and j the second/ junior brother / grower

Do you remember me talking about 3 brothers from Nj . Well G and RL are not related the 3 brothers are Related. G and RL grew Haze the 3 brothers sold it


My story comes from G the Originator, Punto Rojo crossed to itself is Original Haze


I got all the post saved , like I said I don’t want to call out contradictions and repeat myself

It’s kinda funny how in the last 48 I’ve found or remembered Soo much info . Sams did mention Mexican in the Original Haze lineage, not long ago I swore he never posted that

We can’t erase what we put on the net , it’s there forever especially if we save it lol


1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

I respect your opinion, herb, and I'd love a chance to smoke some real NYC haze with you some day. You've been told a story by Sam and by an intelligent someone in Santa Cruz in a phone call, and you take it as fact, just like Hempy takes what he heard in phone conversations with Nevil as fact. Don't you see that you could both be right, and that the complete story remains untold by either party? I set out my reasoning clearly and it ties the larger story together. Is it possible that Sam and RL actually did have BOEL connections but decided not to share that with you? Sam has kept it under wraps for decades, why wouldn't the dude from NJ? Sam met John Griggs; that's an unmistakable BOEL connection, and BOEL are known to have collected bagseed from the best weed they found around the world, and to have operated commercial grows inside and outside the US. I laid it all out for you. Your version of the truth is based on the premise that you have been told the complete truth by all parties. Check your premises and keep your mind open.

All love brother

Slow down

Remember sometimes we make life more difficult than it is

RL Sams and the 3 brothers from NJ had nothing to do with the creation of Original Haze

Now you can continue to create your version of events if you wish . But after one source reveals another source and you can contact and confirm authenticity through your research. Then it no longer becomes a story it’s a fact

Hooteroll one brother posted 2011 if I recall

My thoughts again are if Jesus or G himself told the story certain people would still create there own

1luvbigherb

 

[OldCoolSativa]

I don't doubt the story that some dudes grew Colombian-derived sativas in Santa Cruz and sold it to dudes who moved weight to the east coast. You can call that stuff Original Haze if you like. And I don't doubt Sam's role in that. I think "Original Haze" is one of the earliest and best branding efforts in the history of cannabis. I don't doubt the authenticity of the strain or of the poster. It was around, and it was connoisseur herb, and Sam had a lot to do with it. But that's really not the information I'm after. I want to know where the seeds that Nevil spawned to find First Haze, Haze A and Haze C came from. That's what I refer to as Primal Haze. Perhaps you think they are the same as Original Haze? I don't, for the reasons I outlined earlier. To each his own.

 

[JohnnyChicago]

He may well have been eager to sell the seeds, but I don’t think sam was destitute- remember he was part of the green team (wernard sent him the tickets to join them, because of the skunk) who were providing the coffeeshops all over Holland.
many many greenhouses.

Thanks for this post, that somehow confirms that the OH sold in the Coffeeshops before the arrival of Nevils Hazes was from Wernard and was Haze#19.
This crazy thread, is where the best infos are hidden.

 

[star crash]

hey Haze freaks ..they are trying to revive the "Picture of the Month" thread & I'm in good standing for the month of June ... cast me vote & i may have a chance to win https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijuan...read-june-2021 ...shameless over here ...hee hee

 

[bigherb]

I don't doubt the story that some dudes grew Colombian-derived sativas in Santa Cruz and sold it to dudes who moved weight to the east coast. You can call that stuff Original Haze if you like. And I don't doubt Sam's role in that. I think "Original Haze" is one of the earliest and best branding efforts in the history of cannabis. I don't doubt the authenticity of the strain or of the poster. It was around, and it was connoisseur herb, and Sam had a lot to do with it. But that's really not the information I'm after. I want to know where the seeds that Nevil spawned to find First Haze, Haze A and Haze C came from. That's what I refer to as Primal Haze. Perhaps you think they are the same as Original Haze? I don't, for the reasons I outlined earlier. To each his own.

What I like is the Truth , The name and origins is not my story just one I’ve shared that was passed down

This primal Haze you speak of , I don’t know what more truth you search for I’ve outlined much of it in recent post and in-depth in the past . If you believe Nevils Haze stock was earlier stock than what Sams has spread and preserved there is no reason to continue this conversation

Do you think Nevils Haze stock was a Haze hybrid? Or you are insisting it’s this 66 Haze stock .

Nevils stock is Sams Haze stock period not Haze seed from the Brothers or 66 or your Boel theory

Haze seed Sams preserved around 76 or later would be the best educated guess

Haze seeds derived from burning Bush Sams selected in Cali is another educated guess . Considering Nevil spoke of burning Bush being an ancestor to his stock and both Sams mention of Thai expression in burning Bush and Nevils mention of Thai expression in his aquired Haze stock

You want primal Check out the stock be spread from Johnny and MadMac . Raw Haze is in truest form

Consider to Check out Punto Rojo from Cbg


1luvbigherb

 

[Donald Mallard]

Many other people doubt it donald , not everything sam has done as Sam is a smart man and done some amazing things in our scene, but donald if you really know this industry then you know alot of people hold thier tongue as some powerfull people in our industry and alot of brown nosers for sure.

yea i know about the brown nose part ,
ive seen it , folks are either trying to use you up or they are brown nosing ,
the decent folks can be few and far between , they are out there though and i thank myself lucky to have met a fair few ,
gotta wade through some shit sometimes to get there ojd ....

btw , what is mml ?? mullum late ???

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

Free Haze seeds to any active member in this or the other Haze threads , no journal needed.
all i want to hear is a few words once sampled , id love to hear and see more if you would like to share with us but that isnt required if you dont want to.

Which one would you grow if you could? I have a bunch of your beans anyway..titanium went in for germination yesterday and some rez snitchs' SSSDH's..and some of the ix..last two I've grown before..I have a freak in for flowering test as of yesterday too and some more seed and SSSG and one or two others..Not asking for beans but will always grow out some for my opinion! LOL But enough hybrids for the haze thread I'm going to sit on the side line again and make a smoke..

 

[Donald Mallard]

What is wrong with you mate why not just drop it and accept that there is Sam's version and there is Nevil's version and move on.

What i find odd is the big holes in the Sam haze story now as a result of bigherbs article and this seams to not bother you or the others attacking Nevil so tell us Donald how can the Haze be both a 3 way Colombian hybrid and a pure Colombian ?.

Dark touches on some valid point.

some stories are complex hempy ,
this one sure is , or we wouldnt be here trying to unravel parts that we are not clear on ,
sometimes there is a story within a story and folks just gloss over things just to make it easier to tell ..

my main reason for disputing what you claim are facts ,
is the fact that nevil had no idea what those seeds were ,
so he cant with certainty say they were anything specific ,
and as a result nor can you ,

your previous claim was that nevil had something special , better than what sam had ,
because he got them from the haze brothers directly ,
sam saying that was false made no difference to you ,
it wasnt until nevil said that was false that you changed your story ,
which kinda points out that you are blind to anything nevil hasnt cleared you up on ,

you lack critical thinking skills clearly,
and you cant think logically and make up your own mind by looking at the bigger picture and the facts ,
nevil was probably wrong about those dates ,
all the information we have seems to point to that being the case ,
so in fact it is you who cant move on ..

there cant be 2 versions of the same story ,
there is only 1 truth ...