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The Haze discussion thread
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Day 50 mate.
What about the world`s foremost breeder Shantibaba crossing Nevil`s Haze to his Haze AC and calling it Grail Haze ?
He didn`t seem to mind banging Haze to Haze ?
I thought it was a spiteful thing to do and an a rebuke to Nevil for using the Mr Nice forum to set up his own seed making operation .
Funny thing was it took Shanti 12 months and more to work out WTF was goin down .And put the kibosh on it at his forum . lol .
Grail Haze ... at least be original .
He didn`t seem to mind banging Haze to Haze ?
I thought it was a spiteful thing to do and an a rebuke to Nevil for using the Mr Nice forum to set up his own seed making operation .
Funny thing was it took Shanti 12 months and more to work out WTF was goin down .And put the kibosh on it at his forum . lol .
Grail Haze ... at least be original .
Nice dr fg! How long do you expect them to go?
Can’t wait to see what you find in yours Hammer
Can’t wait to see what you find in yours Hammer
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
You clearly mist it
haze didn't get better when you inbred it. The NL5xHzC1 X Sk1xHzC1 Was not as good as the mother. The best I could do was combine the two different males over the NL5, and I put it out there.
Haze did not get better when inbreed and the haze hybrids were not as good as the parent Haze plant.
Haze did not improve when put back to itself as I was told and later discovered. People who think that B.C. is the hope for the future ( if it can be resurrected) are likely to be disappointed.
I find it Odd Donald how you base your argument on your opinions and not fact so can you please tell us why both Sam and Nevil keep telling people inbreeding Haze is not the direction to go but you think they are both wrong ?.
How do you know what Thai cannabis Nevil was smoking in Thailand at the time he was living there again you have no clue and you base your argument on your opinion again.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
You keep throwing shit but have yet to wake up to the fact your covered in it please stop slandering people in this thread or stop posting in here.
he posted it doesnt improve , as did sam ,
for outstanding stuff they seem to recommend hybridizing it ,
thats if we are reading and comprehending the same ,
if it deteriated , then the current haze offerings would be not worth growing right?? but tom hills haze and others like the stuff mad mac has grown get good reviews as far as im reading ,,
sometimes you gotta try stuff on your own i guess man ...
your right i dont know what nevil toked in thailand , but i do know what the bulk of whats available is , as would you if you went there regularly like some of us do ,
and its bricked laos ,,
there are some others but they are harder to get and as i mentioned may not be as good as the original thai stick since selection has been less since the days of it being legal ,
i finished my rave by saying i was speculating didnt i ??
not like you do with your absolutism , i understand as ive said to you before we only know what we ourselves do , and we can only speculate over what someone else does or is doing , hence my reference at the end ,
does my opinion that varies to yours upset you ?
there s no need to be upset , folks are all entitled to an opinion and to speculate , its absolutism that is the problem , because its often wrong and leaves no room for differences ...
add to all this cannabis , getting high from it , does not give the same result for everyone , its subjective , what gets you super high may not do that for me and visa versa ...
so many variables , and its one of the awesome things about the stuff i think anyhow ...
calm down btw , you talk like your stressed about what ive said when there is no need to be , its just opinion , though i do base it on some facts , its still my opinion ...
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
When you bought a pack of F1 NH or SSH or NL5Hz and so on you were basically guaranteed to find a keeper in a pack of seed.
Sam says to find a viable Haze plant that has both quality smoke and a descent yield even from Todd's release is not easy not impossible just not easy.That means numbers need to be run to find a good plant that yields.
Out crossing the Haze is were Sam and Nevil have said Haze shines.
Sam has run many 10s of 1000 of plants of Haze now if you could keep the quality of haze and improve it or even stabilize it so you could grow out 10 plants and find more keepers than not would Sam not have done that by now considering his had Haze since the 70s ?.
If the Guy that has worked with Haze since the 70s tells you you cant improve it by inbreeding it then why do you think you can.
Haze has been in Holland since the mid 80s that is 35 years so what has been done to improve or even maintain the Haze quality with in the cannabis community and were is the work that is as good as the original Haze from the 80s let alone the haze from the 70s ?.
did i say that highlighted bit hempy ,,
can you show me where i said that or are u just putting words into my mouth ??
i was just disputing your theory that you shouldnt inbreed it since its a total waste and you wont find anything decent , and it would be the end of the world as we know it .. lol ..
as i said if that were the case no hazes would be worth buying and growing ,, and yet many seem to be doing it and being happy with the results , did u even see what mad mac has grown lately ??
selection is always the key to maintaining a variety as well as numbers ..
btw ,any idea if all of what the haze brothers grew was gold ,
or was it just in the first generation or so the gold appeared and after that it dropped off sharply ??
i wonder how many generations it took before they were only getting a small % of uber good stuff ,
was it all uber good at one point , or ??
as ive mentioned i pretty much believe anything can be improved by inbreeding so im biased ill just throw that out there ,,,but im interested to know if sam has really grown out 1000s of hazes and tried to inbreed improve ??,,ive never heard him say that its only logic suggesting as to what you know of sam ,,i could see sam more keeping favourite clones than breeding 1000s i guess only sam can answer that , whatever side of the fence anyones on regarding inbreeding haze theres only one way to find out and that experiment your /ourselves not assumptions off vague internet posts ,,99% of seedmaking is buisness orientated so it dont take einstein to understand why haze has had no value being worked by most ,,thats not the same as people trying an failing for 30years i dont believe that assumtion at all,,its same with people referencing inbreeding of haze crosses as evidence ,, inbreeding crossbreeds is still mixing crossedbred genes so its not really inbreeding in a pure sense just semantically but gentically you making gumbo when using that process so the poor results make perfect sense to me ,,breeding is refining your never gonna refine haze by crossing it
my 10 p
i think so too harvestreaper ,,
i got some mango haze ibl ,
so given hempys theory i got something that had not many keepers and was no where near as good as the original as it had been inbred ,
but that wasnt the case , it was great in fact ,
i did the unthinkable and made more from them , inbred it again , the sky didnt even fall in , hahahaha ..
i grew them , they were great ... so much for that theory i guess ...
the pics are from the seed i got from shanti , mango haze ibl ..
thugpoet
Active member
Dubi from Ace seeds has stated that he was told Haze was heavily inbred and confirmed as much himself upon genetic analysis of the Oldtimer's Haze.
This means that pure haze is not going to be very vigorous or have high yields, but when you make a hybrid with it, you can see Haze's true potential with the hybrid vigor of the offspring.
This is probably the same thing Neville was referring to when saying he couldn't improve Haze.
This makes perfects sense in the case of Neville's Haze, pollinating the A5 cut with the other Haze male leads to something very close to pure haze but with all the hybrid vigor and positive traits brought by the NL genes.
One thing that is a little unclear to me is if Neville was able to make more haze seeds, wouldn't he have been able to use a Haze female in his crosses or at least find more/better males than Haze A and C (especially after Haze A was lost)?
They allegedly did selections on more than a thousand plants when breeding SSH and MH with Shanti. You would think he could have found more/better Haze plants if he was able to select from that many plants. Regardless if Haze is inbred or not, it is almost impossible statistically that 2 out of 7 would be superior to any out of hundreds or thousands of the pure haze seeds he made.
The only way this makes any logical sense, is if he somehow hit the jackpot with Haze A and C.
This means that pure haze is not going to be very vigorous or have high yields, but when you make a hybrid with it, you can see Haze's true potential with the hybrid vigor of the offspring.
This is probably the same thing Neville was referring to when saying he couldn't improve Haze.
This makes perfects sense in the case of Neville's Haze, pollinating the A5 cut with the other Haze male leads to something very close to pure haze but with all the hybrid vigor and positive traits brought by the NL genes.
One thing that is a little unclear to me is if Neville was able to make more haze seeds, wouldn't he have been able to use a Haze female in his crosses or at least find more/better males than Haze A and C (especially after Haze A was lost)?
They allegedly did selections on more than a thousand plants when breeding SSH and MH with Shanti. You would think he could have found more/better Haze plants if he was able to select from that many plants. Regardless if Haze is inbred or not, it is almost impossible statistically that 2 out of 7 would be superior to any out of hundreds or thousands of the pure haze seeds he made.
The only way this makes any logical sense, is if he somehow hit the jackpot with Haze A and C.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Donald the high lights in red are your comments.
I am not the guy that grew or breed pure Haze that guy is Sam and Nevil and the theory that haze dose not improve when inbreed is from Sam and Nevil was told the Same but found out by inbreeding Haze him self.
So the theroy your arguing is wrong is in fact not my theroy but that of Sam and Nevil's.
My theroy is haze hybrids heavy haze hybrids if inbreed start to flower faster and express less Haze each inbreed generation and becoming more indicia expressive or dominant and i told Nevil what i had seen and he told me he saw the same.
looks great donald thats my point exactly we got to prove to self not just accept what others found ,,when i started inbreeding animals 30 years ago professors and books told me i was wrong i didnt listen my findings showed me these respected so called experts was wrong and it opened my understanding and mind up completely,,, once something is no longer theory and becomes proven reality it dont matter who tells you its impossible
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Haze has been in Sam's possession now since at lest 76 it was in the haze brothers hands before that.
Haze hit Europe 35 years ago Sam has grown 10s of 1000s out others that got haze like Nevil tried to inbreed it and i am sure many others that got seed from Posi Dutchman so on did to.
So why would Sam and Nevil say inbreeding Haze dose not improve it.
Why are people getting excited about genetics produced 30 plus years ago ?.
your a bit of a duffer sometimes man ,
go back and read what i wrote , you even higlighted it and it was a reference from your post where you quoted nevil,
not my theory at all , it was exactly what nevil wrote ,
i just commented on it ,,
you go check it out ,
i didnt argue with what nevil said at all , i simply repeated it if you go look you old duffer you ...
its a bit like u just want to dispute what others say because you are not saying it , .. hehehe ...
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Posts from Nevil
I'll give you my understanding of how to work with this variety.
As I said before, I got a total of 7 plants from the original seed stock. They were all different. The Original female (the one that I didn't keep a clone of) and Haze male A, may have been siblings, but just as likely not. Yet there was a common Haze like thread among all of them. This tells me that there was likely no pure haze among them. Haze did not improve when put back to itself as I was told and later discovered. People who think that B.C. is the hope for the future ( if it can be resurrected) are likely to be disappointed. A NL5xHzA would be the best mate for it to test this out. Haze males A+C were at best half brothers, but certainly shared a common ancestor, so my guess is that the inbreeding co-efficient to the haze ancestor in Nevil's Haze is at most 37.5%.
So if we want to go back to a Haze hybrid, we are looking for one not directly related to A or C. So don't talk to me about S.S.H. or Jack Herrer or Diesel or Sage (all the same plant). Double up HzC! I'm not saying that excellent plants can't be produced from inbreeding what we have, but we are going for the Ultimate (Grail). If anybody pinches this name I'll be pissed off.
This should start the ball rolling, I'll continue later.
N.
https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/57880-post1.html
haze didn't get better when you inbred it. The NL5xHzC1 X Sk1xHzC1 Was not as good as the mother. The best I could do was combine the two different males over the NL5, and I put it out there.
Haze really needed to go to a good Buddah Thai lineage, but I could never find one good enough. Went to Thailand, but I couldn't find really good weed there anymore. I'm hoping that someone from Australia will have what we're looking for.
https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/57647-post103.html
OldTimer1 line was not Haze from the Haze brothers he clarified that long ago WolfMan called it Haze.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
No Donald You posted and claimed that the theroy of inbreeding haze not improve Haze was wrong as you believe you can inbreed and improve haze and you believed that was my theroy but that theroy is in fact Sam and Nevil's.
I am not disputing what Sam or Nevil has posted but supporting it and pointing it out to you who is arguing that they are both wrong clearly as you are posting saying haze can be inbreed and improved.
thats what i wrote hempy ,
read it again man ,
open your eyes , get your glasses on and give it a good read and show me where i argued with what nevil said ...
just for clarity the bold type is from your post previously , dont u read what you quote ??
check it out and ill hand here and wait for an apology for false accusations , ahha ..
i guess i wont hold my breath though ...
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