The Haze discussion thread

[@hempy]

Tom´s Hz can outgrow almost anything...

THOH P1 x Panama/Colombian male

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=1209&pictureid=2025022View Image

4 meters +

Looks Good Raco looks Thai Colombian in frame i miss growing them up towards to the sky i tie them down and run them as low as i can so there not spotted out doors.


Hope your doing okay in your part of the world mate what a mess.

 

[Raco]

I never made fem seeds

+1

DC x HL Nepalese F1 male

 

[Donald Mallard]

I have not missed a thing Donald the key points are again as follows.

All Cannabis is Heterozygous and will deteriorate as a Homozygous plant with lots of problems expressed. By selfing S4 or more you get closer to Homozygous and all the recessive problems are expressed.

Sam also says -
ability to restore the Vigor and delete or mask the recessive negative traits

Delete or Mask recessive negative traits Donald dose not mean fix.

Sam- We ended up with a great THCV mother clone with closer to 15% THCV with little other Cannabinoids

Dose that sound like an out come people growing cannabis want ?

Sam -By S4 the plants are seriously screwed up and many are functionally sterile, also poor yields, no pest and disease resistance.

I am not the one cheering picking here.


So no one knows what a male contributes apart from the 50% of geans to a matting ?.

hehe ,
it doesnt matter what people want when someone is doing an experiment , it matters what the person doing the experiment wants ,the results , the goal ,,

sam shows a path to reaching a goal , his experiment,, he doesnt mention he had any intentions of making this line available to anyone does he??

at the end he mentions how to fix some problems that occured along the way ,,
i dont see why your making such a fuss ,

there is nothing wrong with selfing hempy , its just a hang up you have man...

the fact you dont see its a valuable tool for breeding shows how little you know about breeding ...

you have very limited vision hempy and cannot see the big picture no matter how many times its pointed out to you ...

 

[@hempy]

OK if you say so.. It wont matter how anyone answered your question. The right answer is gonna be what you want it to be lol. You don't know what selfing has to do with inbreeding ?. That speaks for itself.

Peace

HH

HH i am easy to get along with mate but respect is part of it and the answer is not what i want it to be it is what it is i did not event sexual reproduction.



I know what inbreeding is mate but spraying a chemical to reverse a female plant turning it to a male is not a natural process in a plants biology is it.

 

[@hempy]

+1

DC x HL Nepalese F1 male

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=1209&pictureid=2026524View Image

Raco did you use him on the Nepalese x i liked that is the brother ?

 

[@hempy]

hehe ,
it doesnt matter what people want when someone is doing an experiment , it matters what the person doing the experiment wants ,the results , the goal ,,

sam shows a path to reaching a goal , his experiment,, he doesnt mention he had any intentions of making this line available to anyone does he??

at the end he mentions how to fix some problems that occured along the way ,,
i dont see why your making such a fuss ,

there is nothing wrong with selfing hempy , its just a hang up you have man...

the fact you dont see its a valuable tool for breeding shows how little you know about breeding ...

...

Creating plants that have a huge reduction in yield and loss in vigor that have no ability to deal with environmental changes or pests that become sterile is not my idea of advancing cannabis Donald.


I would not call it a hang up Donald i would call it a conscious decision (right from Wrong).

 

[Guest]

As a casual small personal grower I found this thread so informative and interesting even disregarding the back biting for the first couple hundred pages. Now its like a clutch of high school 17 year old bitchy girl cheerleaders arguing. unsubscribe.

 

[Elmer Bud]

I never made fem seeds and Nevil's Haze is Nl5xHZ x Hz not Hz x Hz

The Mango Haze hermed and made the seeds without your assistance or supervision is what you mean ?

That`s the reason a lot of people no longer buy / grow Shanti`s seeds ...

You keep banging on about inbreeding Haze .
The father of the SSH was a SK Hz F4 . So when you say Haze you mean O haze ? Not Haze hybrids ?

Because breeding Haze Hybrids to each other seems very successful to me .


Outcrossing then crossing the lines seems to work very well .

 

[Donald Mallard]

Creating plants that have a huge reduction in yield and loss in vigor that have no ability to deal with environmental changes or pests that become sterile is not my idea of advancing cannabis Donald.


I would not call it a hang up Donald i would call it a conscious decision (right from Wrong).

ok i admit defeat ,
there is no point trying to debate with someone so obtuse and arrogant and stubborn ,
you can pat yourself on the back and feel as though u are right then hempy ,, it obviously makes u feel better , go ahead ,
this is not discussion , debate or even conversation,
its about u being right despite any evidence to the contrary ,,
why even have a thread ,, a one sided one where u can just tell folks how it is would be more to your liking id suggest

since u wont take anything new on board , or be prepared to change your stance or opinion no matter how many disagree with you and provide information etc ,
carry on you stubborn old man ,
i also unsubscribe from this thread ....

 

[@hempy]

ok i admit defeat ,
there is no point trying to debate with someone so obtuse and arrogant and stubborn ,
you can pat yourself on the back and feel as though u are right then hempy ,, it obviously makes u feel better , go ahead ,
this is not discussion , debate or even conversation,
its about u being right despite any evidence to the contrary ,,
why even have a thread ,, a one sided one where u can just tell folks how it is would be more to your liking id suggest

since u wont take anything new on board , or be prepared to change your stance or opinion no matter how many disagree with you and provide information etc ,
carry on you stubborn old man ,
i also unsubscribe from this thread ....

Donald your passive aggressive responses do little in the way to add to a intellectual debate or even to a healthy conversation just pointing that out.

Why are you few attacking me for what Sam posted i am a little confused .

I read your mate again talking shit about Mr nice.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Creating plants that have a huge reduction in yield and loss in vigor that have no ability to deal with environmental changes or pests that become sterile is not my idea of advancing cannabis Donald.


I would not call it a hang up Donald i would call it a conscious decision (right from Wrong).

I am not so sure that people are selfing plants to be "creating plants that have a huge reduction in yield and loss in vigour that have no ability to deal with environmental changes or pests that become sterile" I know that was not my goal.

Poor breeding can do most of that without selfing, and there is no shortage of poor breeding from the majority of "Cannabis breeders" who have little understanding of plant genetics to be honest. Many Cannabis breeders can select interesting plants, but Cannabis breeding needs more than just elite selections from a closet of a few individuals or their buddies closets.

People need not only understanding of Cannabis genetics but also the varieties to work with and it helps to have the large numbers required to self plants and select the best plants to use for each Selfed generation, lack of doing this is why so many people thought that selfing a female clone caused it to yield intersex progeny, actually the intersex traits were in the original female clone used to self, this can be avoided in most cases by pre-screening any prospective female clone before selfing to see if you can stress it into expressing male flowers. Few Cannabis "breeders" do this, but those that do all say it makes a major difference.

We were the first to use STS for selfing, not to make all female seeds to sell to the market, but we did it as a tool to develop single Cannabinoid varieties. When our single Cannabinoid varieties were done they did not suffer from the inbreeding at all, we restored the vigour with our methods, they did not suffer from loss of vigour, yield and that have no ability to deal with environmental changes or pests that become sterile" Nor did they express any intersex traits. The finished plants were great and only had a single Cannaboinoid produced in large amounts.

I understand that you are opposed to using STS for selfing, but it is just a breeding tool that can be used correctly like we did or incorrectly like some do, you think it is the act of selfing when in truth it is the act of poor breeding while using STS, a big difference. You blame the tool for the poor breeding by the breeder.

I am not trying to get you to use selfing, that is up to you but when you speak of selfing you are mistaken to think it is not a valuable tool when used correctly.

I still remember when many people thought that selfing with STS caused the progeny to express intersex, while poor selection of female clones used to transform to pollen producers was the actual cause, caused by lack of understanding Cannabis genetics.

I have never made all female seeds to sell, that was not my goal, I used it as a breeding tool and for that it can speed breeding goals by leaps and bounds, and will cause zero damage to the gene pool as long as used correctly, remember that many people are using mothers that have hidden intersex traits when they make normal male female seeds, it takes time, space, and commitment to test any clone with all the stress tests and confirm it is unlikely to have hidden intersex traits. Few will do it before they use a new individual for breeding.

-SamS

 

[Raho]

I am not so sure that people are selfing plants to be "creating plants that have a huge reduction in yield and loss in vigour that have no ability to deal with environmental changes or pests that become sterile" I know that was not my goal.

Poor breeding can do most of that without selfing, and there is no shortage of poor breeding from the majority of "Cannabis breeders" who have little understanding of plant genetics to be honest. Many Cannabis breeders can select interesting plants, but Cannabis breeding needs more than just elite selections from a closet of a few individuals or their buddies.

People need not only understanding of Cannabis genetics but also the varieties to work with and it helps to have the large numbers required to self plants and select the best plants to use for each Selfed generation, lack of doing this is why so many people thought that selfing a female clone caused it to yield intersex progeny, actually the intersex traits were in the original female clone used to self, this can be avoided in most cases by pre-screening any prospective female clone before selfing to see if you can stress it into expressing male flowers. Few Cannabis "breeders" do this, but those that do all say it makes a major difference.

We were the first to use STS for selfing, not to make all female seeds to sell to the market, but we did it as a tool to develop single Cannabinoid varieties. When our single Cannabinoid varieties were done they did not suffer from the inbreeding at all, we restored the vigour with our methods, they did not suffer from loss of vigour, yield and that have no ability to deal with environmental changes or pests that become sterile" Nor did they express any intersex traits. The finished plants were great and only had a single Cannaboinoid produced in large amounts.

I understand that you are opposed to using STS for selfing, but it is just a breeding tool that can be used correctly like we did or incorrectly like some do, you think it is the act of selfing when in truth it is the act of poor breeding while using STS, a big difference. You blame the tool for the poor breeding by the breeder.

I am not trying to get you to use selfing, that is up to you but when you speak of selfing you are mistaken to think it is not a valuable tool when used correctly.

I still remember when many people thought that selfing with STS caused the progeny to express intersex, while poor selection of female clones used to transform to pollen producers was the actual cause, caused by lack of understanding Cannabis genetics.

I have never made all female seeds to sell, that was not my goal, I used it as a breeding tool and for that it can speed breeding goals by leaps and bounds, and will cause zero damage to the gene pool as long as used correctly, remember that many people are using mothers that have hidden intersex traits when they make normal male female seeds, it takes time, space, and commitment to test any clone with all the stress tests and confirm it is unlikely to have hidden intersex traits. Few will do it before they use a new individual for breeding.

-SamS

Thank you for this post Sam.

Crystal clear now.

 

[Capra ibex]

Donald your passive aggressive responses do little in the way to add to a intellectual debate or even to a healthy conversation just pointing that out.

Why are you few attacking me for what Sam posted i am a little confused .

I read your mate again talking shit about Mr nice.

You just have a victim mentality.... you always have to have the last word, regardless of how many folks with better understanding of the topic try to guide you.

 

[LekkerWiet]

Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
Grade 9 Biology.
There are four main inheritance patterns observed in genetics.
1 Dominant Recessive
If even one copy of the dominant trait is present, it is expressed.
2 Intermediate Inheritance
Offspring express a trait midway between the two parents.
3 Multiple Allels
Three or four allels code for the same trait.
4 Polygenic Inheritance
Multiple different gene locations code for the same trait.

Most of the traits we are looking for like resin production, gland type yield etc are not a result of Dominant Recessive traits.
Good breeders are keen observers who are capable of recognising quality and trends within populations. Scientists are not responsible for most of the breeds of plants and animals. Passionate individuals are and most top breeders are not particularly well educated. I've been hanging around breeders and clubs all my life and most of the advances in breeding I've seen have come from fanatics working with small populations.
Over the years I've learned a few tricks that seem to tilt the odds a little more in my favour, but I'm not inclined to share these tricks as anything not found in text books will set me up for days of unproductive debate with pompous self styled scientists whose main contribution to discussion seems to be ridicule and derision, without offering to share their own practises and techniques.
N.

It is funny, Nevile was never such a breeder like you all think it is.
He just select good proven genetics in not so big numbers.
And crossed the desired traits he found in seeds he got.
Like most of today ''breeders'' they start with good genetics and breed some good things.

'' The doors to four grow rooms are wide open, disclosing the blinding glare of dozens of sodium and halide lights. Powerful exhaust fans circulate the air, and the smell of cannabis is overpowering. Three of the rooms are devoted to young seedlings, while the largest contains 40 flowering females in their spectacular resinous glory.''
Inside cannabis castle 1986.

“Breeding is a matter of bending nature to your will,” he says while drawing a toke on a joint of Skunk #1. “There’s not a coffee shop in Holland that can produce better weed than this.''
ICC 1986

So at thet time not any weed is close to SKUNK 1 so still today most good weed in Europe is called Skunk.

He become star becouse he was one of the first man who legaly grow and select plants and sold them commercially.

If he was that good breeder he would make good seeds/strains out of seed stock of pre American genetics,but it is not a case.

Wiet in Netherland start become ''SKUNK'' or high grade when USA genetics come to NL.
Where are dose genetics being breed we shurley dont know but they arrived in NL like selected strains of cannabis so they were being breed for long time with very very big selections and this cant be done without some scientific background and big numbers of plants.

 

[@hempy]

I am not so sure that people are selfing plants to be "creating plants that have a huge reduction in yield and loss in vigour that have no ability to deal with environmental changes or pests that become sterile" I know that was not my goal.

Poor breeding can do most of that without selfing, and there is no shortage of poor breeding from the majority of "Cannabis breeders" who have little understanding of plant genetics to be honest. Many Cannabis breeders can select interesting plants, but Cannabis breeding needs more than just elite selections from a closet of a few individuals or their buddies closets.

People need not only understanding of Cannabis genetics but also the varieties to work with and it helps to have the large numbers required to self plants and select the best plants to use for each Selfed generation, lack of doing this is why so many people thought that selfing a female clone caused it to yield intersex progeny, actually the intersex traits were in the original female clone used to self, this can be avoided in most cases by pre-screening any prospective female clone before selfing to see if you can stress it into expressing male flowers. Few Cannabis "breeders" do this, but those that do all say it makes a major difference.

We were the first to use STS for selfing, not to make all female seeds to sell to the market, but we did it as a tool to develop single Cannabinoid varieties. When our single Cannabinoid varieties were done they did not suffer from the inbreeding at all, we restored the vigour with our methods, they did not suffer from loss of vigour, yield and that have no ability to deal with environmental changes or pests that become sterile" Nor did they express any intersex traits. The finished plants were great and only had a single Cannaboinoid produced in large amounts.

I understand that you are opposed to using STS for selfing, but it is just a breeding tool that can be used correctly like we did or incorrectly like some do, you think it is the act of selfing when in truth it is the act of poor breeding while using STS, a big difference. You blame the tool for the poor breeding by the breeder.

I am not trying to get you to use selfing, that is up to you but when you speak of selfing you are mistaken to think it is not a valuable tool when used correctly.

I still remember when many people thought that selfing with STS caused the progeny to express intersex, while poor selection of female clones used to transform to pollen producers was the actual cause, caused by lack of understanding Cannabis genetics.

I have never made all female seeds to sell, that was not my goal, I used it as a breeding tool and for that it can speed breeding goals by leaps and bounds, and will cause zero damage to the gene pool as long as used correctly, remember that many people are using mothers that have hidden intersex traits when they make normal male female seeds, it takes time, space, and commitment to test any clone with all the stress tests and confirm it is unlikely to have hidden intersex traits. Few will do it before they use a new individual for breeding.

-SamS

Hi Sam well one would hope their goal was not to create plants with a loss of vigor and a huge loss in yield along with the plants natural ability to deal with environmental changes and pests as that would be a huge problem.As were seeing a huge loss in yields and vigor one can only assume the rest are present also.

How many people using STS for selfing do you honestly think have the ability (lab and know how) to reverse and fix the problems that selfing brings Sam.These guys dont even understand the role a male plays

I do see its value as a tool and i would use sex reversal on males and select males in a hybrid or poly-hybrid to take it to were i wanted faster and by doing so you would limit the inbreeding needed and negatives that came with that in say a haze hybrid as an example.

I am not anti science i read / research and try my best to understand the plant.


Thanks for chiming in Sam i appreciate it.

 

[harvestreaper]

Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
Grade 9 Biology.
There are four main inheritance patterns observed in genetics.
1 Dominant Recessive
If even one copy of the dominant trait is present, it is expressed.
2 Intermediate Inheritance
Offspring express a trait midway between the two parents.
3 Multiple Allels
Three or four allels code for the same trait.
4 Polygenic Inheritance
Multiple different gene locations code for the same trait.

Most of the traits we are looking for like resin production, gland type yield etc are not a result of Dominant Recessive traits.
Good breeders are keen observers who are capable of recognising quality and trends within populations. Scientists are not responsible for most of the breeds of plants and animals. Passionate individuals are and most top breeders are not particularly well educated. I've been hanging around breeders and clubs all my life and most of the advances in breeding I've seen have come from fanatics working with small populations.
Over the years I've learned a few tricks that seem to tilt the odds a little more in my favour, but I'm not inclined to share these tricks as anything not found in text books will set me up for days of unproductive debate with pompous self styled scientists whose main contribution to discussion seems to be ridicule and derision, without offering to share their own practises and techniques.
N.

It is funny, Nevile was never such a breeder like you all think it is.
He just select good proven genetics in not so big numbers.
And crossed the desired traits he found in seeds he got.
Like most of today ''breeders'' they start with good genetics and breed some good things.

'' The doors to four grow rooms are wide open, disclosing the blinding glare of dozens of sodium and halide lights. Powerful exhaust fans circulate the air, and the smell of cannabis is overpowering. Three of the rooms are devoted to young seedlings, while the largest contains 40 flowering females in their spectacular resinous glory.''
Inside cannabis castle 1986.

“Breeding is a matter of bending nature to your will,” he says while drawing a toke on a joint of Skunk #1. “There’s not a coffee shop in Holland that can produce better weed than this.''
ICC 1986

So at thet time not any weed is close to SKUNK 1 so still today most good weed in Europe is called Skunk.

He become star becouse he was one of the first man who legaly grow and select plants and sold them commercially.

If he was that good breeder he would make good seeds/strains out of seed stock of pre American genetics,but it is not a case.

Wiet in Netherland start become ''SKUNK'' or high grade when USA genetics come to NL.
Where are dose genetics being breed we shurley dont know but they arrived in NL like selected strains of cannabis so they were being breed for long time with very very big selections and this cant be done without some scientific background and big numbers of plants.

yes good plants come from good plants ,,no one turning hemp into trip weed

 

[@hempy]

Famed horticulturist Luther Burbank's quote: “select the best and reject all others” is the single most important aspect to consider. With time, focus and patience the knack for recognizing desirable and undesirable traits becomes more apparent.


FYI I have been a member of the Luther Burbank Experimental Gardening Club for many decades we met at his farm in Sevastapol and later at Santa Rosa in the park that houses his home and greenhouse and Museum. We were some 50 Cannabis growers that loved Luther Burbank and his work and books and gardens and Museum and grave. We established the group in 1980.
-SamS

I have only scratched the surface of Luther Burbank's life and story Sam but i really like his story no formal education in botany self educated with a true gift and passion for breeding and plants.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

.

Hi Sam well one would hope their goal was not to create plants with a loss of vigor and a huge loss in yield along with the plants natural ability to deal with environmental changes and pests as that would be a huge problem.As were seeing a huge loss in yields and vigor one can only assume the rest are present also.

How many people using STS for selfing do you honestly think have the ability (lab and know how) to reverse and fix the problems that selfing brings Sam.These guys dont even understand the role a male plays

I do see its value as a tool and i would use sex reversal on males and select males in a hybrid or poly-hybrid to take it to were i wanted faster and by doing so you would limit the inbreeding needed and negatives that came with that in say a haze hybrid as an example.

What is the role do Male cannabis plants play do you really know? Do you know of any trait that is linked to males only?
I only know that Males are what determine a seeds sex, if the Male parent gives a Y the seed is Male if the Male parent gives an X the seed is Female.
I would love you to list the reasons a male role is important and for what traits? Or what reasons. When I make a reciprocal cross of any single fairly true breeding variety I do not see sex linked traits for example. I like males, I saved hundreds over the years but I am not so sure they are required for healthy Cannabis, why, do you?-SamS

I am sure you understand that STS does not reverse a Male it transforms Females to express male flowers to use to self or make all female seeds. To reverse a male you need to use Ethephon. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597&highlight=males+transformed+female
What is nice about Ethephon is the males reversed to female can be smoked to judge, unlike Females reversed to male with STS, as STS can not be smoked, but you should already know the quality of any female that you want to transform to male, so not really needed. With males it can be hard to know what they will pass on to progeny, a male transformed to female gives you a better idea what might get passed on from the male. You can also make super males YY if you wanted to.
-SamS

I am not anti science i read / research and try my best to understand the plant.


Thanks for chiming in Sam i appreciate it.

 

[harvestreaper]

seen the auto trait pass on in males more frquently than females when outcrossing away from it which made me think it could be sex related but of course this is merely an observation

 

[Betterhaff]

Burbank’s sample numbers were huge…1000’s.