Team Microbe's Living Soil Laboratory

[Team Microbe]

IT'S GAME TIME!

IT'S GAME TIME!

So the lava rock that was back ordered came in a few days ago (not pictured below), so I was able to get this yard of soil mixed up finally. I'm such an anxious person too... these last few weeks have been torture!!!

This mix includes:

1 part Peat Moss

1 part Aeration (75% lava rock, 20% bio char, 5% rice hulls)

1 part Compost


Mixed with:

Acadian Kelp Meal @ 1/2 Cup per cubic foot

Neem Cake and Karanja Cake 50/50 Mix @ 1/2 cup per cubic foot

Crustacean Meal @ 1/2 Cup per cubic foot

Gypsum Dust @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Brix Blend Basalt @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Glacial Rock Dust @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Oyster Flour @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

I took these shots through the scope to show the differences between Red Lava Rock and Perlite. If you were a microorganism, would you rather live on the bare surface of the perlite? Or deep in the caves of the lava rock, where thousands of mini "micro climates" are found that contain moisture? This is why I chose Lava Rock over Perlite. The only down side is the added weight to the containers, I can no longer pick them up and carry them so now I just slide them around... no biggie though! Soil life > my life.

Oh yeah, I've also changed the base of my containers for drainage purposes. I can't believe I waited so long to do this... BlueJay over at GC gave me this tip. Hopefully this helps avoid those soggy container bottoms that I used to have...

Edit: After further discussion, I've come to the conclusion that laying rocks down indeed does not increase drainage efficiency - but can be of benefit if your pots are sitting on the cold floor (especially in winter) to act as a layer of insulation. Oops!

Finished soil, ready for the new containers. God damn I love the feeling of rich soil...

Finally! The new no-tills are ready for action...

I'll brew up an inoculation tea with every type of humus I own (diversity) and drench before waiting a week or two for the amendments to break down before planting cover crops and clones. There isn't anything "hot" in this mix, so it doesn't require the typical 4 week "cook" like most super soil mixes do with harsher (and unnecessary) additives. As for cover crops, I'll be using Fenugreek and Crimson Clover to fix nitrogen and provide additional nutrients to the soil. After the canopy fills in in late veg, a natural "chop & drop" will be performed by nature and most of the N will be used up during the last weeks of veg and the first week(s) of flowering.


As stated before, I've altered this mix a little bit compared to the original mix I ran in the beginning of this thread. I've taken out the fish bone meal due to it's high P properties and it's affect on mycorrhizae, incorporated amendments that don't break down over time (like the rice hulls I originally used), added Bio Char (pre-charged) in my aeration for long term nutrient retention/soil fertility, and will be adding worms to my pots for the first time to provide fresh castings and additional aeration from their "tilling" affect. I've also bumped the size of my containers from 10 gallons to 25 gallons for bigger plants/more production. I'll be squeezing (10) 25 gallon no-tills into the 5'x10' tent.

Stay tuned!!

 

[rik78]

hey TM

what is your light set up? sorry if you already say it in one of your thread
and
I am interested in your thinking about, vegging time, plant size, when to flip to counting with the strech maximize plant size without running into your lights.
I just smoke a bowl, so sorry for my writing stile, I a bit slow

 

[heady blunts]

the gravel at the bottom of the pots thing is a myth. the physical properties of a given media hold water at the same place regardless of container size.

the 3" of soggy bottom you've got will not disappear if you add 3" of gravel or stones or whatever. it'll just be 3" of soggy bottom on top of your "drainage" layer.

basically it takes up root space without providing any benefit.

this is a great short paper from oregon state university you'll find interesting:

physical properties of container media

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

I took these shots through the scope to show the differences between Red Lava Rock and Perlite. If you were a microorganism, would you rather live on the bare surface of the perlite? Or deep in the caves of the lava rock, where thousands of mini "micro climates" are found that contain moisture? This is why I chose Lava Rock over Perlite. The only down side is the added weight to the containers, I can no longer pick them up and carry them so now I just slide them around... no biggie though! Soil life > my life.
...
Oh yeah, I've also changed the base of my containers for drainage purposes. I can't believe I waited so long to do this... BlueJay over at GC gave me this tip. Hopefully this helps avoid those soggy container bottoms that I used to have...

Perlite is silica based rhyolite lava that has been crushed into pellets and then popped like popcorn in a furnace. Any internal moisture is converted to steam which expands and creates internal bubbles which interconnect and allow penetration of water and micros.

I wouldn't base my understanding of the porous nature of basaltic "lava rock" and perlite upon those photos. Since perlite is silica glass and doesn't contain the darker minerals, it is somewhat translucent. The flash from the camera penetrates the perlite pellet and eliminates shadows, washing out the darker appearance of the air pockets. The darker lava rock is impenetrable to light and so the pockets show up as deep shadows. In reality the perlite has a much greater volume of air pockets resulting in a greater internal surface area for micro-organisms.

I agree with Heady Blunts about the drainage. The finer soil particles eventually wash down between the rocks and fill in your water passages. The dark mineral rich basalt scoria is very heavy. It is full of iron, and so your bags are ridiculously heavy. Its greater density also comes from a lack of air pockets compared to the less dense perlite. For better drainage those bags of soil would be better off set upon a surface that allows runoff to exit the bottom of the bags.

 

[GHGrower]

I've never liked perlite simply for it's tendency to rise out of suspension and gradually migrate to the top of the container over the course of a year or so in my mixes. I used pumice for several years, but recently moved on to the lava rock simply to see how it compares to pumice; the extra cost savings would be nice, and I find the extra weight to be a potential benefit.

 

[ghostmade]

While your correct heady blunts,i also think your wrong.lol
Drainage material allows the botton to breath better. Which help with the wet and dry cycle. But i agree with ya in the sence you can achieve the same thing with pallets.but lava rocks on the bottom is a lil more convenient

 

[Mikell]

the gravel at the bottom of the pots thing is a myth. the physical properties of a given media hold water at the same place regardless of container size.

View Image

the 3" of soggy bottom you've got will not disappear if you add 3" of gravel or stones or whatever. it'll just be 3" of soggy bottom on top of your "drainage" layer.

basically it takes up root space without providing any benefit.

this is a great short paper from oregon state university you'll find interesting:

physical properties of container media

View Image

Bang on. Chalker-Scott has another good write up on the myth of "drainage" layers. Some of her writing is straight axe grinding, but there's usually a few pearls of wisdom.

 

[Team Microbe]

the gravel at the bottom of the pots thing is a myth. the physical properties of a given media hold water at the same place regardless of container size.

View Image

the 3" of soggy bottom you've got will not disappear if you add 3" of gravel or stones or whatever. it'll just be 3" of soggy bottom on top of your "drainage" layer.

basically it takes up root space without providing any benefit.

this is a great short paper from oregon state university you'll find interesting:

physical properties of container media

View Image

I'm with ghostmade on this one, I've gotta disagree with ya Heady!

 

[Team Microbe]

Perlite is silica based rhyolite lava that has been crushed into pellets and then popped like popcorn in a furnace. Any internal moisture is converted to steam which expands and creates internal bubbles which interconnect and allow penetration of water and micros.

I wouldn't base my understanding of the porous nature of basaltic "lava rock" and perlite upon those photos. Since perlite is silica glass and doesn't contain the darker minerals, it is somewhat translucent. The flash from the camera penetrates the perlite pellet and eliminates shadows, washing out the darker appearance of the air pockets. The darker lava rock is impenetrable to light and so the pockets show up as deep shadows. In reality the perlite has a much greater volume of air pockets resulting in a greater internal surface area for micro-organisms.

I agree with Heady Blunts about the drainage. The finer soil particles eventually wash down between the rocks and fill in your water passages. The dark mineral rich basalt scoria is very heavy. It is full of iron, and so your bags are ridiculously heavy. Its greater density also comes from a lack of air pockets compared to the less dense perlite. For better drainage those bags of soil would be better off set upon a surface that allows runoff to exit the bottom of the bags.

Perlite is actually considered "inert" due to it's inability to harbor microorganisms, which is why I chose lava rock over that even though it's 10x as heavy. Do you have any sources to back up those claims? I've never heard that before in my 10 years of growing... I'd double check that brother

 

[Team Microbe]

hey TM

what is your light set up? sorry if you already say it in one of your thread
and
I am interested in your thinking about, vegging time, plant size, when to flip to counting with the strech maximize plant size without running into your lights.
I just smoke a bowl, so sorry for my writing stile, I a bit slow

I've got two 600 watt air cooled hoods hanging above a 5'x10' canopy, and I'm using Hortilux Super HPS bulbs.

As far as vegging times go, it all depends on methods of training and genetic background for the most part IMO. Sativas will have shorter veg times due to their stretch in flower, but will flower longer than the indicas that require a little bit longer of a veg. I think it all equals out in the end, and I aim for a 2-4 week veg after transplanting the cuttings into their final pots. I think trellis netting is the best bet for keeping plants maintained and under the height desired. I've tried staking before with bamboo, and I didn't like all the work in it - plus it hurt my soil life every time I drove one into the soil. If I were to stake again, I would put them in before the plant spread it's roots out across the entire medium. I think this round I'll try trellis netting again though.

Microbe Man and I were talking about shorter plants with 14 days of veg time, and the ability to fit in an extra harvest annually because of it. While this would give you that extra crop every year, IMO it all equals out to be the same because the longer vegged plants will yield more than the shorter SOG type set up.

 

[BigBozat]

I'm with ghostmade on this one, I've gotta disagree with ya Heady! Even when the rock base layer fills in with soil over time, it'll still drain excess moisture more efficiently than soil with only 33% aeration - no? It'll simply become a more aerated section of soil, I'm guessing around 50/50 soil:aeration. Just using logic here, no science experiments needed

In this case, logic without the science experiment, however, fails...

This one ain't a matter of 'opinion' or partially informed logic... Heady - & Mikell - are right about the myth of adding an 'aeration' or 'drainage' layer at the bottom of a container...

The science and the real world results have been in on this issue for what, 40 ~ 50 years now, and still otherwise knowledgeable gardeners seem to be swallowing the myth of layering in a drainage layer at the bottom of a pot... so silly...


Mixing the lava rock throughout the soil mix, instead of layering as a separate, distinct 'aeration'/'drainage' layer at the bottom of the container, will give you better results.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Perlite is actually considered "inert" due to it's inability to harbor microorganisms, which is why I chose lava rock over that even though it's 10x as heavy. Do you have any sources to back up those claims? I've never heard that before in my 10 years of growing... I'd double check that brother

Perlite is silica based rhyolite lava that has been crushed into pellets and then popped like popcorn in a furnace. Any internal moisture is converted to steam which expands and creates internal bubbles which interconnect and allow penetration of water and micros.

... In reality the perlite has a much greater volume of air pockets resulting in a greater internal surface area for micro-organisms.

I consider perlite to be "inert" because it is an inorganic silica glass which doesn't chemically react with many compounds such as chlorine. The basalt is full of heavier elements like iron and manganese but it also contains a lower percentage of air pockets. There is more surface area within perlite is what I was saying. Since these gas pockets are interconnected, the contained gas is available to roots, and the inner surfaces are available to microorganisms.

Now your statement that the basalt scoria (vesicular lava rock) is more favorable for microorganisms may be true. But if true, I don't think it's because the perlite is lacking internal surface area. Perlite is glass foam, while your lava rock will have many different minerals and a micro-crystaline structure which may provide easier access to compounds and elements contained within the rock, which could favor micro-life. The chemical inertness of glass provides nothing for microorganisms other than a surface to live on.

If you're going to use lava rock, you might check out any near bye railroad tracks or road maintenance stations. They often use volcanic cinders as a base for tracks, and in snow country volcanic cinders are spread on roads to provide traction. You'll see the big piles of cinders along roads where work crews can scoop them up with loaders. And these cinders are already the right size. Back east though you might find cinders derived from burning coal. I don't know about those.

I'm with ghostmade on this one, I've gotta disagree with ya Heady! Even when the rock base layer fills in with soil over time, it'll still drain excess moisture more efficiently than soil with only 33% aeration - no? It'll simply become a more aerated section of soil, I'm guessing around 50/50 soil:aeration. Just using logic here, no science experiments needed

Are your lava rocks 50% air space? If not, then why should loose rocks filled in with soil have a greater aeration percentage than plain soil?

 

[Granger2]

I believe the term is "Perched Water Table." If you put a layer of sand or gravel on the bottom, it doesn't eliminate it, it just moves the perched water table higher in the pot.

But what I'm not getting here is why you would need a faster drainage layer if your medium drains properly? So it drains out in 30 seconds instead of a minute or something. What's the advantage? Seems to me that if it drains a little slower [within reason] it would cut down on dry spots in the pot/medium. -granger

 

[Cannavore]

stellar job. just finished reading this thread. definitely one of the better/best threads on IC at the moment!

i hope you don't mind me copying your Silver Lotus pictures over to that big ass Bodhi guide I made. thats easily the nicest silver lotus grow and pictures i've come across on the internet so far! i can take them down asap if you dont want them being used. peace

 

[BigBozat]

Perlite is actually considered "inert" due to it's inability to harbor microorganisms, which is why I chose lava rock over that even though it's 10x as heavy. Do you have any sources to back up those claims? I've never heard that before in my 10 years of growing... I'd double check that brother

Actually... considered... by whom?
Before you ask others for cites/sources, you might want to check your own...

Frankly, I had never heard your claim before - until you said it over at Kozmo's World... and back then I just let it pass without comment then because it wasn't the main focus of the discussion being had at the time... But, now you're repeating - and questioning another's knowledge - and I can't just let it go unchallenged...



Perlite is considered 'inert' because it is chemically inert/non-reactive... not because its pore space supposedly cannot harbor microorganisms.

Very... different... things.

In fact, the [water in the] pore space of perlite CAN and DOES host microbial life. Dig out your microscope if you don't believe...

 

[ghostmade]

When i do diy smartpots in milkcrates.i dont do a layer on the bottom.i epoxy 2" x 2" wood on the bottom.olit a matter of getting air flow through the bottom of the pot.
I agree with you on the perch water table.what im saying is this usually over saturated zone in the pot is able to dry out quicker with an aeration layer on the bottom. or just being able to lift the bottom of your pots off of the floor.
Either way ive seem sweet ass results from nursery pots to.i just like to increase my wet and dry cycle.

 

[Mikell]

In this case, logic without the science experiment, however, fails...

This one ain't a matter of 'opinion' or partially informed logic... Heady - & Mikell - are right about the myth of adding an 'aeration' or 'drainage' layer at the bottom of a container...

The science and the real world results have been in on this issue for what, 40 ~ 50 years now, and still otherwise knowledgeable gardeners seem to be swallowing the myth of layering in a drainage layer at the bottom of a pot... so silly...


Mixing the lava rock throughout the soil mix, instead of layering as a separate, distinct 'aeration'/'drainage' layer at the bottom of the container, will give you better results.

It's easy to use your own experience and thinking to come to what may seem like a logical conclusion. We've all been there before. Once you get past your own ego (a bag of mushies, perhaps?), there's not much to say when the facts are easily found. One tends to latch onto their own ideas very strongly, but it many cases it's just another hold up to the truth.

The inaccuracy of common myths and horticultural wives tales is what inspires some to use experimentation and an objective approach to prove or disprove these backyard theories. As much as I disagree with Chalker-Scotts motives, she has done much to drive away many incorrect assumptions, for the benefit of those willing to learn from her and others work.

Chalker-Scott (her personal blog and WSU sub-section), Perched Water Table (Granger took the words out of my mouth), and the megathreads on Water Movement in Containers posted on Gardenweb (one of the only reasons to visit that God forsaken website), are all good places to start for anyone interested in learning more.

 

[GHGrower]

Alternative: why not add a few inches of perlite or pumice beneath the container, like a SIP tray?

 

[heady blunts]

mikell LOL

Alternative: why not add a few inches of perlite or pumice beneath the container, like a SIP tray?

I love this. it's like upside-down mulching.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

I used to grow in milk crates lined with shade cloth material. Worked great. There was good air circulation underneath the containers and soggy bottoms was never an issue. People use the plastic egg crate light panels to elevate pots in trays. For my beer cups I use mesh panels of "plastic canvas" from the embroidery section of my local Ben Franklin store. They're about 3/16" thick and also come in several size disks that can be placed under pots.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Plaskolite-4-ft-x-2-ft-Suspended-Light-Ceiling-Panel-1199233A/202025149

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_canvas

Oh! 12" diameter plastic pot trivets. But they might be discontinued. Somebody needs to make these in different sizes for the grow shops.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0071FT9MM/bgntxm2-20

These items are 14" saucers with a perforated lid that the pot sits upon. Would be good for hand watering. They come in smaller sizes also.
http://www.target.com/p/plastec-recycled-floor-guard-clear-14/-/A-13051393#prodSlot=_1_3