W
wodi
Following. Good thread
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Team Microbe's Living Soil Laboratory
- Thread starter Team Microbe
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Well I filled the bottoms with lava rock, so we'll see how much it improves drainage and if I don't notice a difference then we can confirm these illogical claims I can't seem to wrap my head around
Outdoor season begins!
A shot through the scope at some young roots
Laugh it up my man lol
It makes me feel special when you troll on me so hard
It makes me feel special when you troll on me so hard
BigBozat
Member
:
I usually don't post on ROLS threads (folks here/there don't seem to tolerant to the views of others)--but sometimes it is hard to sit silent and watch fellow cultivators fumble in the dark when you know there are exceptions to the "rule"--especially on something you have experimented extensively with (grow medium porosity ratios).
Regarding the topic of "Perched Water Table" for container plants and the myth of bottom layering to increase "aeration"---I say it depends on the physical properties of the aggregate selected.
Here is a simple test that everyone can do that will prove that "Perched Water Table" does exist...and that there are exceptions to the rule.
Items required:
3 clear containers with a drain hole (I use 500ml water bottles and cut off the tops...and drilled a single 1/4 hole in the bottom).
1/3 cup of Perlite
1/3 cup of small sized Bark (I use Orchid Rooting Bark)
3 1/3 cups of your grow medium (wet/dry...does not matter).
3 quart sized canning jars
1st container: Add 1 1/3 cup of your grow medium.
2nd container: Add 1/3 cup of perlite (bottom layer) then add 1 cup of your grow medium.
3rd container: Add 1/3 cup of small sized bark (bottom layer) then add 1 cup of your grow medium.
At this point, each clear container contains the same volume 1 1/3 cups of grow medium...including any bottom layer.
1. Place each container inside a jar--with something underneath it to prevent it from resting on the bottom of the jar.
2. Pour exactly 2 oz of water in containers #1 & 2 and observe how the water soaks/travels down the grow medium. Notice how the water flow screeches to a stop near the bottom...with little to no water flowing out the bottom. This is an example of "Perched Water Table"--the point where water tension and gravity are in "conflict", where water tension becomes more "horizontal" and less "vertical" (water no longer flows downward).
3. Now pour 2 oz of water in container #3 and notice how the water travels down the grow medium, through the bark and almost immediately trickles out the bottom--as if it was "exempt" of the concepts of "Perched Water Table". Ahhh, an example of an "exception to the rule"--and that the "myth" can be true.
4. Now pour another 2 oz of water in all containers, wait 10-15 minutes or so and now measure the runoff captured in the canning jars. Compare the results....4 oz in, how much drained out?
Hmmm, every test I performed, the container with a bottom layer of orchid rooting bark was always the winner...usually providing about twice the runoff than all others. Why is that? Bark's ability to absorb/wick/increase water tension better than say rocks, perlite, sand, etc. So there you have it...a bottom layer aggregate that is the exception to the "Perched Water Table" rule--proving the "bottom layer myth" can also be true...IF the correct aggregate is selected.
Yes...I use "orchid bark" for my "bottom layer".
Regarding the topic of "Perched Water Table" for container plants and the myth of bottom layering to increase "aeration"---I say it depends on the physical properties of the aggregate selected.
Here is a simple test that everyone can do that will prove that "Perched Water Table" does exist...and that there are exceptions to the rule.
Items required:
3 clear containers with a drain hole (I use 500ml water bottles and cut off the tops...and drilled a single 1/4 hole in the bottom).
1/3 cup of Perlite
1/3 cup of small sized Bark (I use Orchid Rooting Bark)
3 1/3 cups of your grow medium (wet/dry...does not matter).
3 quart sized canning jars
1st container: Add 1 1/3 cup of your grow medium.
2nd container: Add 1/3 cup of perlite (bottom layer) then add 1 cup of your grow medium.
3rd container: Add 1/3 cup of small sized bark (bottom layer) then add 1 cup of your grow medium.
At this point, each clear container contains the same volume 1 1/3 cups of grow medium...including any bottom layer.
1. Place each container inside a jar--with something underneath it to prevent it from resting on the bottom of the jar.
2. Pour exactly 2 oz of water in containers #1 & 2 and observe how the water soaks/travels down the grow medium. Notice how the water flow screeches to a stop near the bottom...with little to no water flowing out the bottom. This is an example of "Perched Water Table"--the point where water tension and gravity are in "conflict", where water tension becomes more "horizontal" and less "vertical" (water no longer flows downward).
3. Now pour 2 oz of water in container #3 and notice how the water travels down the grow medium, through the bark and almost immediately trickles out the bottom--as if it was "exempt" of the concepts of "Perched Water Table". Ahhh, an example of an "exception to the rule"--and that the "myth" can be true.
4. Now pour another 2 oz of water in all containers, wait 10-15 minutes or so and now measure the runoff captured in the canning jars. Compare the results....4 oz in, how much drained out?
Hmmm, every test I performed, the container with a bottom layer of orchid rooting bark was always the winner...usually providing about twice the runoff than all others. Why is that? Bark's ability to absorb/wick/increase water tension better than say rocks, perlite, sand, etc. So there you have it...a bottom layer aggregate that is the exception to the "Perched Water Table" rule--proving the "bottom layer myth" can also be true...IF the correct aggregate is selected.
Yes...I use "orchid bark" for my "bottom layer".
Always a good read EF20. It would appear (as usual) there are no hard/fast rules. Although I'm wondering if cup 1 simply holds more water with more medium, whether the orchid bark is more liable to drain than retain, etc.
Definitely something to play around with.
Generally I lean towards more medium and incorporate decomposed wood and coir to wick water more efficiently than peat, but that's based on my own "logical conclusions".
Watch out, or you'll get banned again
Definitely something to play around with.
Generally I lean towards more medium and incorporate decomposed wood and coir to wick water more efficiently than peat, but that's based on my own "logical conclusions".
Laugh it up my man lol
It makes me feel special when you troll on me so hard
Watch out, or you'll get banned again
BigBozat
Member
Good stuff!
... and I agree that how much (if any) of a perched water table problem that occurs in a container depends on - among other things - the physical (and electro-static, potentially even some chemical) properties of both the grow mix/substrate and the drainage layer media...
... including the particle size at the interface of drainage and root zone layers...
A "perched water table" (PWT) naturally occurs in containers when soil particulate size is under about .125 (1/8) inch.
In the case of the orchid bark layer in your test, most likely the differential in the distribution of particle sizes between the orchid bark layer and your growmix substrate is so small that there is no 'interface' (or so little as to be not observable)... I am curious: what is the composition of your grow substrate that was laid in above your orchid bark 'layer'?
Did you try this test?:
Side-by-side comparison... one pot just your grow mix, one pot your grow mix + an orchid bark bottom 'layer', and a third that is your grow mix + the orchid bark evenly mixed throughout... which one 'wins'?
Are you saying that your experience is that in my proposed test scenario, the middle pot - separate grow mix + orchid bark layers - would 'win'?
Whether the orchid bark actually exerts some sort of greater wicking/capillary action than the layer above, such that it is literally 'pulling' water down out of above substrate so that it drains faster (than it otherwise would if it were no separate layer), well... call me dubious...
(but open to evidence... I am nothing if not completely willing to be proven wrong & learning something new! Or maybe I misunderstood what you're saying in re: orchid bark's 'wicking' action?)
In TM's case, your 'exception to the rule' doesn't really apply...
I'm willing to bet that adding a layer a crushed lava rock to his containers will indeed exacerbate perched water table issues and only compound any drainage issues...
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First...to measure the exact differences/efficiencies of various aggregates is to weigh each container prior to watering...and then again after runoff. Remember: 1 ml of water = 1gram of water. I experimented with about 20 different aggregates and combinations thereof before choosing 100% bark as my "bottom layer"....but lava rock was not one of them, pumice and diatoms were though.
Boz--yep, side by side via production runs; same routine, same same everything and best results...you know, behind Door #1 we have---
Short answer, fully decomposed orchid rooting bark has numerous properties that I like--but I am not a ROLS follower so what I do with my grow medium probably does not apply to this thread. I respect TM and do not want to "cause a ruckus"....lol.
Long answer--I like it so much, by volume "orchid rooting bark" is about 18% of my fresh custom grow medium and when I amend my reclaimed grow medium I add equal amounts of bark and perlite--not too mention more as a bottom layer in all my containers. Bark will breakdown eventually (which is a good thing) and theoretically should remain in ROLS indefinitely as it decomposes from chunk to particle. In my situations, roots plow through the bottom of my grow medium (no more moist bottom center) and become intertwined in the spaces between the bark. Almost like a second rootball...kinda, sorta, but not really.
Do experiment yourself, used/empty 500ml water bottles are great "test tubes" for grow medium experiments. Watching the speed and how water flows in your grow medium can be "very interesting" and so easy to verify--just weigh the sample before then after. Grams do not lie--but sometimes our eyes have a way of "deceiving" us and filtering out the truth; "I saw/observed--therefor _______ must be true" vs "I weighed and this weighed more---therefor __________ must be true".
BTW...when making up my fresh grow medium--ProMixBX, perlite, vermiculite and bark are added in equal proportions (18% each)--compost, EWC, calcined clay, and Fossil Shell Flour are the other primary aggregates/components--save the fertility and liming agents.
Boz--yep, side by side via production runs; same routine, same same everything and best results...you know, behind Door #1 we have---
Short answer, fully decomposed orchid rooting bark has numerous properties that I like--but I am not a ROLS follower so what I do with my grow medium probably does not apply to this thread. I respect TM and do not want to "cause a ruckus"....lol.
Long answer--I like it so much, by volume "orchid rooting bark" is about 18% of my fresh custom grow medium and when I amend my reclaimed grow medium I add equal amounts of bark and perlite--not too mention more as a bottom layer in all my containers. Bark will breakdown eventually (which is a good thing) and theoretically should remain in ROLS indefinitely as it decomposes from chunk to particle. In my situations, roots plow through the bottom of my grow medium (no more moist bottom center) and become intertwined in the spaces between the bark. Almost like a second rootball...kinda, sorta, but not really.
Do experiment yourself, used/empty 500ml water bottles are great "test tubes" for grow medium experiments. Watching the speed and how water flows in your grow medium can be "very interesting" and so easy to verify--just weigh the sample before then after. Grams do not lie--but sometimes our eyes have a way of "deceiving" us and filtering out the truth; "I saw/observed--therefor _______ must be true" vs "I weighed and this weighed more---therefor __________ must be true".
BTW...when making up my fresh grow medium--ProMixBX, perlite, vermiculite and bark are added in equal proportions (18% each)--compost, EWC, calcined clay, and Fossil Shell Flour are the other primary aggregates/components--save the fertility and liming agents.
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BigBozat
Member
Hmmm... interesting... and I do not doubt [and will not argue about] your results...
Will have to do more of my own wexperiments, I guess, as I'm not fully convinced...
I have a hard time conceiving how an orchid bark 'layer' at the bottom could conceivably 'pull' more water down out of the root zone substrate than the root zone substrate naturally allows to percolate down in the first place... it would have to overcome the upward capillary action of the above root zone substrate...
But, I won't claim it's 'not possible', at this point...
LOL, I hear ya about ROLS threads...
I don't mean to cause a 'ruckus' either; I just want to find (and share, where welcomed) the truth, as best my feeble brain can understand it...
I prolly wouldn't qualify as a ROLS-follower, either (there are all sorts of things I do and/or experiment with that would prolly make a true ROLS cultist's hair stand on end, lmao... 'tho, at the same time, there are many things that I take from ROLS)...
FWIW, I like orchid bark for a variety of reasons, too, and use it in my base soil mix (actually, its an orchid bark product that also has arcillite [fired ceramic montmorillonite clay granules] and biochar), so I'm with ya on that...
In this case, I think (I hope) your input has been welcome
... I
TM much, also, which is why I piped up (if I hadn't cared, I'd have just stayed quiet and let him continue to think that crushed lava rock makes a great 'aeration/drainage' layer based on an unsound understanding and/or lack of awareness about PWT issues)...
BigBozat
Member
Curious:
What DO you use for liming agents and ferts in the substrate?
Me:Liming Agents = Wollastonite, Oyster Shell Flour, Carbonatite [Spanish River, fr. Boreal AgMin via RockDustLocal.com], among other things {I'll have to go find my recipe to remember 'em all... I'm a constant tinkerer}...
Dol lime is usually only if/when I also have a Mg need, otherwise never...
BigBozat
Member
W
wodi
Love the microscope root hairs pic
Boz,
Liming agents: Dolomite (powder), oyster shell powder, wood ash, and hydrated lime balance out the pH game for me--as I start higher than most (6.8-7).
Dry Fertility: I fine grind everything (coffee grinder) and decided that Dr Earth Basic (4-4-4) and Bud and Bloom (4-10-7) have a diverse collection of desired ingredients (rather have two 50# bags than have 8-10 mentality (without compromise of price/quality)--but not enough, so my custom blend also includes blood meal, bone meal, Mexican & Indo bat guano, and both rock and sea minerals. Early in the game, I add alfalfa meal and a dash of nasty synthetics/chems--some time release, along with liquid seaweed (no kelp meal here), and epsom salts (magnesium).
Wet Fertility: DIY emulsified fish, bat guano teas (Jamaican and PSG), more nasty synthetics/chems, handful of enhancers and hardeners, plus more liquid seaweed extract (cold processed OMRI blessed). Of course Compost Teas, Bacteria and Enzyme brews IMHO fall under "wet fertility" and are applied at strategic times--but also include kooky things like Raw Milk and yucca extract. Do foliar sprays count too?
LOL...like I said, not a ROLS follower, but certainly greater than 90% organic pure (a few decades ago I was an avid Biodynamic disciple).
BTW...I add a specific amount of dry fertility to each plant at transplant and always premoisten the grow medium prior to actually transplanting. So when I water the plant at transplant time, it is just enough to moisten the transplanted rootball, as the container grow medium is already moist and charged. Top dressings at strategic times as well--as I operate on the premise my dry fertility will be at least 70% decomposed after 60 days of application/transplant.
Liming agents: Dolomite (powder), oyster shell powder, wood ash, and hydrated lime balance out the pH game for me--as I start higher than most (6.8-7).
Dry Fertility: I fine grind everything (coffee grinder) and decided that Dr Earth Basic (4-4-4) and Bud and Bloom (4-10-7) have a diverse collection of desired ingredients (rather have two 50# bags than have 8-10 mentality (without compromise of price/quality)--but not enough, so my custom blend also includes blood meal, bone meal, Mexican & Indo bat guano, and both rock and sea minerals. Early in the game, I add alfalfa meal and a dash of nasty synthetics/chems--some time release, along with liquid seaweed (no kelp meal here), and epsom salts (magnesium).
Wet Fertility: DIY emulsified fish, bat guano teas (Jamaican and PSG), more nasty synthetics/chems, handful of enhancers and hardeners, plus more liquid seaweed extract (cold processed OMRI blessed). Of course Compost Teas, Bacteria and Enzyme brews IMHO fall under "wet fertility" and are applied at strategic times--but also include kooky things like Raw Milk and yucca extract. Do foliar sprays count too?
LOL...like I said, not a ROLS follower, but certainly greater than 90% organic pure (a few decades ago I was an avid Biodynamic disciple).
BTW...I add a specific amount of dry fertility to each plant at transplant and always premoisten the grow medium prior to actually transplanting. So when I water the plant at transplant time, it is just enough to moisten the transplanted rootball, as the container grow medium is already moist and charged. Top dressings at strategic times as well--as I operate on the premise my dry fertility will be at least 70% decomposed after 60 days of application/transplant.
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BigBozat
Member
Now you're making me ask even more Qs, lol:
So, why r u starting out at a near neutral pH?
Freakily similar... 'tho maybe not so freaky... 'cept I didn't go synth chems so much as tinker with PGRs, polymeric acids, oligosaccharides, and that ilk. And my mix already had sufficient Mg (from langbeinite/KMag grits-to-dust in my mineral line-up), so no Epsom salts.
Deja vu | Vuja de?
What's going on here... again strangely similar. Except again I generally eschew the synth elementals, and tend to try making my own versions of the comm'l enhancers/hardeners/inoculants/adjuvants/etc.
And milk makes sense, even if it seems wacky to some. Yucca... and aloe... and probiotics, and god knows what else. I'll have to dig out my complete experiment list...
Biodynamics? You?
Say hello to Rudy Steiner and his minions... I find the movement, um, er, interesting, and sometimes [like a blind squirrel stumbling across its nuts] of value... but we part ways at unprovable mysticism... same with Reams & his field theory, and some of the other field guys ('tho the brix stuff - e.g., see the AEA thread - seem valuable)...
Biodynamics---I ignored their mysticism crap but followed their soil nutrition advances and how they respected the land. We ran a good game but decided the extra effort/expense to be 100% Biodymanics (2-3x the labor--preparation and clean up time was ridiculous) and the cost for their magic potions outweighed my rule of paying "a buck or two per pound" for my dry fertility. But those were the days played both extremes of the food spectrum--grew killer organic veggies/tubers while importing the best foie gras from France...lol.
BTW, the dash of nasty synthetics include evil demons like: potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, urea, and super phosphate. The "hex of the devil" shit...lol.
BTW, the dash of nasty synthetics include evil demons like: potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, urea, and super phosphate. The "hex of the devil" shit...lol.
stellar job. just finished reading this thread. definitely one of the better/best threads on IC at the moment!
i hope you don't mind me copying your Silver Lotus pictures over to that big ass Bodhi guide I made. thats easily the nicest silver lotus grow and pictures i've come across on the internet so far! i can take them down asap if you dont want them being used. peace
Thanks Cannavore! Those are some tall compliments, but I'll take em nonetheless
I didn't know you made a Bodhi guide, by all means - post any pictures you'd like there. I'm gonna go check it out after I post this actually... sounds like a great thread
Thanks MM, hoping for as good of weather we had here last year... time will tell! Are you running anything outdoors this year?
Pumped to see what turns out, TM.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't as well, I'm really excited about the new mix...- Status
