I felt so excited and connected to ya,when i seen the row of beans on the paper towel.lol
Sweet root picks btw.you generate really good content for the site.muchlove
Quadrupleog out.
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Team Microbe's Living Soil Laboratory
- Thread starter Team Microbe
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Sweet root picks btw.you generate really good content for the site.muchlove
Quadrupleog out.
Thanks G, you do that too eh? 
I'm so anal when it comes to growing, it's very zen-like for me though because of it.
I have a few more seedling shots that I just uploaded - I found a crazy looking seedling that circles itself and is dying to hit soil... check this thing out lol:
These were just left on top of one my 600 watt air-cooled hoods to take advantage of the heat. This Holy Rhodi had a very good germ ratio... 98 out of 100!
I'm so anal when it comes to growing, it's very zen-like for me though because of it.
I have a few more seedling shots that I just uploaded - I found a crazy looking seedling that circles itself and is dying to hit soil... check this thing out lol:
These were just left on top of one my 600 watt air-cooled hoods to take advantage of the heat. This Holy Rhodi had a very good germ ratio... 98 out of 100!
Here is a snapshot from a larger pdf file that discusses bark's "general" porosity and holding capabilities that might be helpful for some--
Glossary:
BD = Bulk Density
AFP = Air Filled Porosity
TP = Total Porosity
EAW = Easily Available Water
Source: Report page 85--http://www.fao.org/hortivar/scis/doc/publ/8.pdf
Glossary:
BD = Bulk Density
AFP = Air Filled Porosity
TP = Total Porosity
EAW = Easily Available Water
Source: Report page 85--http://www.fao.org/hortivar/scis/doc/publ/8.pdf
BigBozat
Member
Thanks BB! Cootz however brought up the topic of dioxins when he saw these pics - we're currently discussing the risks of using paper towels to germinate. If you have any input on this feel free to add... this is something I pulled from an article about them:
HOW CAN I BE EXPOSED TO DIOXINS?
Dioxins can enter the body by eating or drinking contaminated food, through the air we breathe or by skin contact. Most people are exposed to dioxins by eating contaminated fish, meats and dairy products. Because freshwater fish (such as catfish, buffalo or carp) may ingest sediments containing dioxins and retain the dioxin in their body fat, they tend to have the highest dioxin levels. Only small amounts of dioxins are taken up by plants from the soil, so amounts in grazing animals and dairy products are generally lower than in fish. Dust contaminated with dioxins may be found on the outer surfaces of fruits and vegetables.
Dioxins do not readily dissolve in water, so exposure to them from contaminated water is not of concern. People are generally not exposed to dioxins in surface waters unless they contact contaminated sediments. The extremely small levels of dioxins in bleached paper products, such as disposable diapers, facial or toilet tissue, and paper towels, are not considered dangerous to people.
HOW CAN I BE EXPOSED TO DIOXINS?
Dioxins can enter the body by eating or drinking contaminated food, through the air we breathe or by skin contact. Most people are exposed to dioxins by eating contaminated fish, meats and dairy products. Because freshwater fish (such as catfish, buffalo or carp) may ingest sediments containing dioxins and retain the dioxin in their body fat, they tend to have the highest dioxin levels. Only small amounts of dioxins are taken up by plants from the soil, so amounts in grazing animals and dairy products are generally lower than in fish. Dust contaminated with dioxins may be found on the outer surfaces of fruits and vegetables.
Dioxins do not readily dissolve in water, so exposure to them from contaminated water is not of concern. People are generally not exposed to dioxins in surface waters unless they contact contaminated sediments. The extremely small levels of dioxins in bleached paper products, such as disposable diapers, facial or toilet tissue, and paper towels, are not considered dangerous to people.
BigBozat
Member
I shouldn't giggle... but I [used to] live in the heart of old East Coast pulp & paper country, and dioxins have been so prevalent (and pollutant) around there over the generations that the thought of worrying about the possible incremental exposure to dioxins contained in finished paper towel products is, well, kinda funny... sadly funny?
I have no opinion/knowledge, per se, on the matter...
I *DO* know dioxins are toxic, it's kinda hard to avoid knowing about it growing up in paper mill country... but, I hadn't thought/heard about it being particularly as a residue in paper towels, nor what levels of accumulation might constitute a threat to germ'ing seeds, so...
But, Clack obviously is a guy worth listening to, so...
Maybe Hemp towels?
I bet you'd get a big thumb's up from many hemp fans around here
So... I've been playing around with the watering. And for the couple of guys who do know me, know I put a single layer(I piece thick) of hydroton in my containers. I began doing this to keep my soil from running out the bottoms. Some of them are air pots, but i use this practice in all of them. That being said I also have trays at the bottom of these containers. Now, very soon after watering I find a pool of water in these trays, hence the trays. Ive run into the problem of The hydroton denying the soil the ability to wick up the water(even after the soil has settled and is well established with the roots down at the bottom). Now I've taken to the practice of dumping that water(20-40 min. Later) back into the top of my containers. While I've done this I've noticed the water does not return to the tray nearly as much if at all. I believe the initial watering preps the soil for wicking/absorption and my now preped soil is prepared for its potential absorption properties.
I've read this debate thus far because of my desire to have a 18 cu/ft bed. My questioning whether to use my regular practiced hydroton layer method in the Geo-planter(3' x 6' x 14") to me is to be answered by the use and effectivity of the "Tray Liner" that is advertised to come with it.
I guess to sum it up. I am understanding that a drainage layer has its place in certain circumstances depending on method and desired outcome. For instance; if the "Tray Liner" can be put down in a way to where I can collect the run off then I might be obliged to go with a hydroton layer to discourage the clogging of the bottom of my so called breathable Geo-pot(bed). If there's no way to really collect it then I will be swayed to let the soil do it's job and wick back up the water. Which I believe could aid me in estimating the soil saturation levels
I may be completely off or just misunderstood. Please interject, educate, or constructively criticize me in any way but please be Kool.
In the words of our future leaders, "Be Excellent to Each Other and Party on Dudes!"
Much Respect
Kozmo
I've read this debate thus far because of my desire to have a 18 cu/ft bed. My questioning whether to use my regular practiced hydroton layer method in the Geo-planter(3' x 6' x 14") to me is to be answered by the use and effectivity of the "Tray Liner" that is advertised to come with it.
I guess to sum it up. I am understanding that a drainage layer has its place in certain circumstances depending on method and desired outcome. For instance; if the "Tray Liner" can be put down in a way to where I can collect the run off then I might be obliged to go with a hydroton layer to discourage the clogging of the bottom of my so called breathable Geo-pot(bed). If there's no way to really collect it then I will be swayed to let the soil do it's job and wick back up the water. Which I believe could aid me in estimating the soil saturation levels
I may be completely off or just misunderstood. Please interject, educate, or constructively criticize me in any way but please be Kool.
In the words of our future leaders, "Be Excellent to Each Other and Party on Dudes!"
Much Respect
Kozmo
Ya that's a good idea, I asked coot about organic towels and was waiting on an answer but I think we don't need him for that LOL. Thanks fellas 
I've noticed myself that the slower I pour the water into the medium, the more efficient the holding capacity becomes... that's why growers out west use drip emitters in low rainfall areas; it saves a shit load of water. I bet you'll have the same success rates with watering each plant 1/2 of their water volume, waiting 15 min, then giving each one their 2nd half. Then you won't have to collect the water from the trays underneath
I would lay a layer of rock or hydroton down in the bottom of that bed if it were resting on the floor - not only to increase drainage capabilities but to lift the soil off of the cold floor to give the roots a chance to stay warm (especially during the winter). We had a good debate on layering rock at the bottom of containers over at GC, you should check that out when you get a sec if you haven't already. Cootz laid into me pretty well haha
Kygiacomo!!!
AppAlachiAn OutLaW
that one seedling in ur had has freakishy root hairs nice job. why do u wait till those tails are so long before u put them in the pot? i noticed u did the same thing with the serious 6 seeds. is there a certain advantage to it? as soon as i see my tap root sticking out it goes into the jiffy pelletThanks G, you do that too eh?
I'm so anal when it comes to growing, it's very zen-like for me though because of it.
I have a few more seedling shots that I just uploaded - I found a crazy looking seedling that circles itself and is dying to hit soil... check this thing out lol:
View Image
View Image
View Image
These were just left on top of one my 600 watt air-cooled hoods to take advantage of the heat. This Holy Rhodi had a very good germ ratio... 98 out of 100!
I don't like waiting until the seed shell pops off, but I had a dilemma and forgot I ran out of beer cups
so I had to wait an extra day. There's no real advantage to it at all, but for me it's easier not to overwater in the beginning like I do sometimes with young seedlings. My Chapin Sprayer lost a part on the pump that keeps the pressure inside the tank too, so I have to hand water seedlings instead of spraying and I was careless tonight on a few of em, I'll admit lol. I hope Chapin sells spare parts... Foliar Friday is 5 days away!
BigBozat
Member
I've noticed myself that the slower I pour the water into the medium, the more efficient the holding capacity becomes... that's why growers out west use drip emitters in low rainfall areas; it saves a shit load of water. I bet you'll have the same success rates with watering each plant 1/2 of their water volume, waiting 15 min, then giving each one their 2nd half. Then you won't have to collect the water from the trays underneath
ding! ding! ding!
We have a winner!
It's not really that the medium somehow gets 'more efficient' when your pour slower, it's just that your pour rate - when slow - does not exceed the inherent saturation rate of the medium's component aggregate physical-chemical-structural properties. Pour fast, at a rate that is faster than the saturation rate of the soil - and adhesion & cohesion & gravity cause the water molecules to find the path of least resistance down the sides of the containers.
Lifting the bed to insulate roots from cold floor's not a bad idea.
[To Koz: Just don't believe that doing so by putting in a layer of hydroton at the bottom will 'increase drainage'... it does not... at best, it's only seeming 'drainage improvement' might come from simply having relatively less growing media/substrate in the box to have to saturate. That's not really drainage improvement, its just less growing media and a higher perched water table. One last time: hydroton as an 'aeration layer' at the bottom does not 'increase' or 'improve' drainage. BarcaRant over.]
I am dying to hear what Cootz had to say...
link?
ding! ding! ding!
We have a winner!
It's not really that the medium somehow gets 'more efficient' when your pour slower, it's just that your pour rate - when slow - does not exceed the inherent saturation rate of the medium's component aggregate physical-chemical-structural properties. Pour fast, at a rate that is faster than the saturation rate of the soil - and adhesion & cohesion & gravity cause the water molecules to find the path of least resistance down the sides of the containers.
Lifting the bed to insulate roots from cold floor's not a bad idea.
[To Koz: Just don't believe that doing so by putting in a layer of hydroton at the bottom will 'increase drainage'... it does not... at best, it's only seeming 'drainage improvement' might come from simply having relatively less growing media/substrate in the box to have to saturate. That's not really drainage improvement, its just less growing media and a higher perched water table. One last time: hydroton as an 'aeration layer' at the bottom does not 'increase' or 'improve' drainage. BarcaRant over.]
I am dying to hear what Cootz had to say...
link?
You're making me more and more interested in this cohesion and adhesion talk everytime you speak of it man - is there anywhere in particular you'd recommend me learning about it more? (Links?) That would make a great post...
I think I was a little stubborn when I first learned that the lava isn't actually increasing drainage in the bottom of the container - I'll admit that and apologize for my shortness a few pages back. I didn't wanna think I just wasted rock/container space doing that, so now I guess I'll just pretend I used them to lift the roots off of the floor
Here's the page where Cootz gets into the rock layer. It continues on the following page, good stuff indeed. I think I forgot that everyone can be wrong at times, even BlueJay - I thought that just bc he lays rocks down that it must be the right thing to do... I'm gonna keep a more open mind for now on though. That reminds me... I've gotta edit that picture with the rock now lol
BigBozat
Member
You're making me more and more interested in this cohesion and adhesion talk everytime you speak of it man - is there anywhere in particular you'd recommend me learning about it more? (Links?) That would make a great post...
I think I was a little stubborn when I first learned that the lava isn't actually increasing drainage in the bottom of the container - I'll admit that and apologize for my shortness a few pages back. I didn't wanna think I just wasted rock/container space doing that, so now I guess I'll just pretend I used them to lift the roots off of the floor
Here's the page where Cootz gets into the rock layer. It continues on the following page, good stuff indeed. I think I forgot that everyone can be wrong at times, even BlueJay - I thought that just bc he lays rocks down that it must be the right thing to do... I'm gonna keep a more open mind for now on though. That reminds me... I've gotta edit that picture with the rock now lol
The cite Mikell gave earlier re: Chalker-Scott's rant is one.
http://puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Container drainage.pdf
As she references about midway thru, it's about particle sizes of the layers, and how/whether moisture flows across the interface between the two based on the similarity/difference between the particle sizes.
If your lava rock particle sizes were distributed similar to the particle distribution in your base mix, then:
- the 'interface' is much more 'crossable' {essentially, it's so similar now that it's not really a distinguishable 'layer' as far as the water mechanics are concerned},
- moisture will penetrate down into the lava rock without first having fully saturated the above base mix {'tho material differences still make this difficult}, and
- the perched water table will form lower/in the bottom of the lava, out of the root zone.
But, if not, then the above base mix layer will first have to be fully saturated, causing the perched water table to form above the lava rock layer - into, or at least nearer, the root zone.
The adhesion, cohesion & gravity stuff are the forces that determine how moisture flows across that interface (or not).
Standard soil science/water mechanics stuff... for a ref that may not be particularly/directly relevant to gardening, per se, see maybe here.
TM....when "ego" trumps "truth"--then we end up with a bunch of people doing it "wrong"--but thinking they are "right".
Many, many, many moons ago I attempted to replace ProMix BX with pure peat--the first thing I had to do was adjust the pH (peat was 5), then I begin to notice problems with porosity and water drainage. That was the beginning of summer...by Labor Day I became mini-expert on my grow medium. I experimented extensively on porosity, aggregate mix/size and methods of watering. The best tool in my arsenal were "clear cups"--I calculated the efficiencies/porosities of every aggregate I could lay my hands on--including combinations at various proportions. I even grew fresh cutting/clones in some of the finalists so I could see how the roots developed.
Once I selected the aggregates to use (via cup experiment), then the exact amounts had to be determined--it was simply adjusting the ratio to match the container size and height: cup, 1/2 gallon, 3 gallon, or 5 gallon containers (they all behaved differently with each size/shape container exhibiting it's own "characteristic").
Moral of the story--what works for 1/2 gallon container many not be best for a 5 gallon container. I use the same inputs/aggregates for my grow medium for all containers--but to maintain "perfect" porosity for each sized container, I adjust the ratio/amount used...as opposed of adding or removing anything.
Using "clear containers" of different sizes (quart and gallon sized too) and weighing them before and after your "test" will guide you to your perfect mix. Also, you can experiment with crazy ideas (without affecting production)--like layering (not just the bottom but middle, top), if premoistened grow medium is more effective to transplant than using dry mediium that is later moistened, which rock/bark are good for bottom layering, etc.
Many, many, many moons ago I attempted to replace ProMix BX with pure peat--the first thing I had to do was adjust the pH (peat was 5), then I begin to notice problems with porosity and water drainage. That was the beginning of summer...by Labor Day I became mini-expert on my grow medium. I experimented extensively on porosity, aggregate mix/size and methods of watering. The best tool in my arsenal were "clear cups"--I calculated the efficiencies/porosities of every aggregate I could lay my hands on--including combinations at various proportions. I even grew fresh cutting/clones in some of the finalists so I could see how the roots developed.
Once I selected the aggregates to use (via cup experiment), then the exact amounts had to be determined--it was simply adjusting the ratio to match the container size and height: cup, 1/2 gallon, 3 gallon, or 5 gallon containers (they all behaved differently with each size/shape container exhibiting it's own "characteristic").
Moral of the story--what works for 1/2 gallon container many not be best for a 5 gallon container. I use the same inputs/aggregates for my grow medium for all containers--but to maintain "perfect" porosity for each sized container, I adjust the ratio/amount used...as opposed of adding or removing anything.
Using "clear containers" of different sizes (quart and gallon sized too) and weighing them before and after your "test" will guide you to your perfect mix. Also, you can experiment with crazy ideas (without affecting production)--like layering (not just the bottom but middle, top), if premoistened grow medium is more effective to transplant than using dry mediium that is later moistened, which rock/bark are good for bottom layering, etc.
BigBozat
Member
:Ayuh, that's a wicked good way to sum up the moral of the story... what works for 1/2 gal container may not be the best for a 5 gal container (and vice versa)... EF420 for the win... nicely said...
BigBozat
Member
*That* would make a great post?
TM, man, you've got to get out a bit more often, if you think that'd make a great post...
Only nerds [like me, lmao] read such things...
and sometimes only then becuz their soil scientist ex-brother-in-law made them read such to resolve an argument [which, of course, I lost, 'tho I'll never admit it to him out loud]
*That* would make a great post?
TM, man, you've got to get out a bit more often, if you think that'd make a great post...
Only nerds [like me, lmao] read such things...
and sometimes only then becuz their soil scientist ex-brother-in-law made them read such to resolve an argument [which, of course, I lost, 'tho I'll never admit it to him out loud]
You're right, I do need to get out more often...- Status
