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Team Microbe's Living Soil Laboratory
- Thread starter Team Microbe
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Picking up where we left off...
Picking up where we left off...
A quick re-cap -
I've been gathering ingredients to build my new soil with this month (since I only included rice hulls in my previous mix for the aeration, resulting in the inability to carry-on without tilling), and have really only been waiting on the lava rock... this stuff was impossible to find locally for some reason:
It's coming THIS Tuesday, so I'll be able to get the ball rolling with the 25 gallon pots after that. In the meantime, I've been taking cuttings and popping beans to narrow down my future line up
Cutting Solution: (1 gal)
-1/8 tsp 200x Aloe Vera Powder
-5 ml Agsil16H
-20 ml FulPower
* Soak cuttings & cubes for at least 2 hours. Dunk into aloe gel, and place into cubes w/ heating mat underneath the tray. Fill tray with enough water to barely touch the bottom of the cubes, then wait 7-14 days for roots. Remove dome twice a day for fresh air, and mist inside of dome to keep humidity levels up.
I've started implementing aloe dips in my routine just before I bring the cuttings to the root riot cubes, and I've noticed healthier and faster rooting ever since
It's easy to get roots like this if we utilize aloe's properties that are so famous for it's rooting capabilities. Did you know that clonex and other over priced rooting hormones rely on the same thing aloe provides us?
That's right - salicylic acid. Except when you do it this way, you pay $5 ea. for the aloe plant(s) and have a rooting gel that's 10x better (let alone 90% cheaper) than the ones they sell us in a fancy bottle. I'd rather have a plant in my room that not only looks sick, but can be used for contact dermatitis that many growers experience when they brush up against their plants while working. I break out in hives if I rub up against my ladies, and snapping off an inch of aloe leaf is all I need to do to resolve it. I'll squeeze the gel out and rub it on the rash like lotion, and in 10 minutes it's completely gone. I shit you not!
Edit: I just learned (and wanted to share with everyone) that clones shoot roots out horizontally, while seeds will send a tap root down vertically in the beginning. So basically - wide pots are best to transplant cuttings in, while deep cups or pots would be best for seeds. However, transplanting in the plant's final home would mitigate the most stress, so if possible - this route is the best.
Picking up where we left off...
A quick re-cap -
I've been gathering ingredients to build my new soil with this month (since I only included rice hulls in my previous mix for the aeration, resulting in the inability to carry-on without tilling), and have really only been waiting on the lava rock... this stuff was impossible to find locally for some reason:
It's coming THIS Tuesday, so I'll be able to get the ball rolling with the 25 gallon pots after that. In the meantime, I've been taking cuttings and popping beans to narrow down my future line up
Cutting Solution: (1 gal)
-1/8 tsp 200x Aloe Vera Powder
-5 ml Agsil16H
-20 ml FulPower
* Soak cuttings & cubes for at least 2 hours. Dunk into aloe gel, and place into cubes w/ heating mat underneath the tray. Fill tray with enough water to barely touch the bottom of the cubes, then wait 7-14 days for roots. Remove dome twice a day for fresh air, and mist inside of dome to keep humidity levels up.
I've started implementing aloe dips in my routine just before I bring the cuttings to the root riot cubes, and I've noticed healthier and faster rooting ever since
It's easy to get roots like this if we utilize aloe's properties that are so famous for it's rooting capabilities. Did you know that clonex and other over priced rooting hormones rely on the same thing aloe provides us?
That's right - salicylic acid. Except when you do it this way, you pay $5 ea. for the aloe plant(s) and have a rooting gel that's 10x better (let alone 90% cheaper) than the ones they sell us in a fancy bottle. I'd rather have a plant in my room that not only looks sick, but can be used for contact dermatitis that many growers experience when they brush up against their plants while working. I break out in hives if I rub up against my ladies, and snapping off an inch of aloe leaf is all I need to do to resolve it. I'll squeeze the gel out and rub it on the rash like lotion, and in 10 minutes it's completely gone. I shit you not!
Edit: I just learned (and wanted to share with everyone) that clones shoot roots out horizontally, while seeds will send a tap root down vertically in the beginning. So basically - wide pots are best to transplant cuttings in, while deep cups or pots would be best for seeds. However, transplanting in the plant's final home would mitigate the most stress, so if possible - this route is the best.
Cuttings are rooted!
Cuttings are rooted!
I kept a few phenos from the last run, including:
Silver Lotus #1, #2
Sicilian Revenge
Strains I'm introducing to the room are:
Cheese Candy (an old favorite of mine)
Jack Diesel (another old favorite)
AG-13 Haze x Biker (thanks again Kozmo!)
White Rhino
Pineapple Chunk
Holy Rhodi (a project of mine)
Cheese Candy clone ready for take off
Silver Lotus #1 clone just getting rooted this week
Cuttings are rooted!
I kept a few phenos from the last run, including:
Silver Lotus #1, #2
Sicilian Revenge
Strains I'm introducing to the room are:
Cheese Candy (an old favorite of mine)
Jack Diesel (another old favorite)
AG-13 Haze x Biker (thanks again Kozmo!)
White Rhino
Pineapple Chunk
Holy Rhodi (a project of mine)
Cheese Candy clone ready for take off
Silver Lotus #1 clone just getting rooted this week
BigBozat
Member
Good finding re: hulls only.
Gonna have to beat the hell out of that bag of lava rock to produce reasonable particle sizes...
Consider arcillite (fired/ceramic calcined montmorillonite; search, e.g., aquarium supply sites)... maybe diatomaceous earth, too?
Very porous, calcium & silica...
Montmorillonite has very high CEC (but I don't know if the firing affects CEC). The diatomaceous earth can act as a natural / non-chem insecticide (the sharp edges of the pulverized diatoms shred insect carapace).
Well, technically, the active ingredient of Clonex is IBA (indole-3-butyric acid), which is a different PGR/phytohormone (an auxin). There may be other cloning aids that rely on salicylic acid (SA), but Clonex is not one of them. And most commercial rooting hormones/compounds *do* generally rely on IBA... not SA.
Salicylic acid acts via different pathway(s) than IBA, and its function [in cannabis horticulture] is really to induce SAR (systemic acquired resistance) response in the plant (basically, activate the plant's 'immune system') mostly by signalling the jasmonate pathway (beware foxtailing?)... not necessarily to promote rooting, per se.
The rooting benefit really comes as a secondary effect of the broad-spectrum pathogen-resistance triggered by the plant's recognition of salicylic acid.
'Willow water', which is the usual 'organic' alternative to commercial rooting compounds, contains both IBA and SA. The effects can be synergistic (ugh, I hate that word).
You would get even more rooting benefit by, e.g., including an IBA (or IAA) source to your rooting solution.
Willow water is one...
a diluted solution of coconut water might be another (it has IAA, an auxin, along w/ the cytokinin, zeatin, which is also in corn seed-based SSTs)..
as is a kelp meal solution (which also has cytokinins, gibberellins and and a whole host of other
things).Auxins (among other phytohormones) promote adventitious root growth (i.e., root growth off the stem, which is what you're by cloning cuttings).
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BigBozat
Member
Good finding re: hulls only.
Gonna have to beat the hell out of that bag of lava rock to produce reasonable particle sizes...
Consider arcillite (fired/ceramic calcined montmorillonite; search, e.g., aquarium supply sites)... maybe diatomaceous earth, too?
Very porous, calcium & silica...
Montmorillonite has very high CEC (but I don't know if the firing affects CEC). The diatomaceous earth can act as a natural / non-chem insecticide (the sharp edges of the pulverized diatoms shred insect carapace).
Well, technically, the active ingredient of Clonex is IBA (indole-3-butyric acid), which is a different PGR/phytohormone (an auxin). There may be other cloning aids that rely on salicylic acid (SA), but Clonex is not one of them. And most commercial rooting hormones/compounds *do* generally rely on IBA... not SA.
Salicylic acid acts via different pathway(s) than IBA, and its function [in cannabis horticulture] is really to induce SAR (systemic acquired resistance) response in the plant (basically, activate the plant's 'immune system') mostly by signalling the jasmonate pathway (beware foxtailing?)... not necessarily to promote rooting, per se.
The rooting benefit really comes as a secondary effect of the broad-spectrum pathogen-resistance triggered by the plant's recognition of salicylic acid.
'Willow water', which is the usual 'organic' alternative to commercial rooting compounds, contains both IBA and SA. The effects can be synergistic (ugh, I hate that word).
You would get even more rooting benefit by, e.g., including an IBA (or IAA) source to your rooting solution.
Willow water is one...
a diluted solution of coconut water might be another (it has IAA, an auxin, along w/ the cytokinin, zeatin, which is also in corn seed-based SSTs)..
as is a kelp meal solution (which also has cytokinins, gibberellins and and a whole host of other
Auxins (among other phytohormones) promote adventitious root growth (i.e., root growth off the stem, which is what you're by cloning cuttings).
Yeah I'm not looking forward to the slug fest with that lava rock... hopefully it won't be too much work. I already ordered it I might have my buddy drive over it with his Jeep
Great post.
I could've sworn that clonex had SA in it but you're right, thanks for correcting me on that, and the SA functions. Very valuable info here my friend
So do you think I should add some mild coconut water to my soaking solution? That wouldn't make the cubes slimy or anything right? I'll def incorporate the willow water when the snow melts around here... I know where a giant willow is locally so that should be fun
Hey TM, I've been lurking on your thread for a bit now and I have to say thanks to all the awesome infos. I have a couple of questions for you and the others too.
First I can't find crab or crustacean meal over where I am so I was thinking about buying some a my local fish shop and then make a small bokashi compost of it. Do you think it would be a good way to bring it ?
Also I've always been growing from seeds but now I have 3 awesome moms so I'll be using cuttings too now. I'm using 15 gallons pots right now but I'm a bit afraid it is going to be too big for a cutting without a tap root. What do you think about that ?
Thanks and keep up the good work !
First I can't find crab or crustacean meal over where I am so I was thinking about buying some a my local fish shop and then make a small bokashi compost of it. Do you think it would be a good way to bring it ?
Also I've always been growing from seeds but now I have 3 awesome moms so I'll be using cuttings too now. I'm using 15 gallons pots right now but I'm a bit afraid it is going to be too big for a cutting without a tap root. What do you think about that ?
Thanks and keep up the good work !
BigBozat
Member
Hulk SMASH!
Jeep-processed lava rock sounds worthy of a pic...
Great post.
I could've sworn that clonex had SA in it but you're right, thanks for correcting me on that, and the SA functions. Very valuable info here my friend
So do you think I should add some mild coconut water to my soaking solution? That wouldn't make the cubes slimy or anything right? I'll def incorporate the willow water when the snow melts around here... I know where a giant willow is locally so that should be fun
TYVM & VW.
All credit to others around here @ IC (sooo many!)...
I only lurk
, learn, apply, rinse & repeat, and pass along what I manage to wrap my noggin around... There's no doubt that SA can be useful/beneficial.
It is, after all, part of the plant's natural, evolved growth system.
Plants that resist a broad spectrum of pathogens obviously should in the long run yield better, produce healthier/higher-quality crop, and better sustain the whole soil life/food web.
Problems include:
(a) the interaction amongst PGRs is highly complex, non-linear and generally involve very minute [sometimes seemingly trivial] amounts of the substances, and so - as with any complex system - prone to instability (seemingly trivial differences in application rates can trigger a cascade of unintended consequences);
(b) induction of systemic resistance generally incurs some sort of plant energy trade-off... net-net, the trade-off might be a benefit/positive (depending on point in life cycle, environment, yadda)... but it could net-net be a negative if the plant can't afford the drain on energy reserves.
Apparently, in rooting cuttings, SA (at the application rates you're using) is net-net a benefit.
Yes, I think coco water (and mebbe some kelp powder) might provide some additional root formation-enhancing benefit...
'Tho from your pics, it doesn't look like your existing method needs a lot of help! There's always the 'if it ain't broke' consideration...
Why I think so:
From phytochemical viewpoint, auxins & cytokinins control root development.
I'm sure there's a thread somewhere that summarizes things in plainer language, but FWIW here's a cite that might help: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2803412/
(Wikipedia's entries aren't bad start, either)
Coconut water is/was well known in tissue culture lab settings to 'clone' plants from undifferentiated cells.
FWIW, the PGR strigolactone works to inhibit adventitious root formation, so mitigating strig at this stage would presumably be beneficial, too.
Perhaps not surprisingly, cytokinins (which are in both coco water & kelp extract) are antagonistic to strig...
I would start at verrrry low application rates if you're adding coco water to your SA solution... something like a 10:1 or 20:1 dilution rate if using coco water (more like 100:1 or more if reconstituting from a concentrated powdered coco product).
Because PGRs interact in very minute quantities, I'd want to observe effects at very high dilution rates before going for more. Sometimes less is more.
For kelp powder, I would apply at like 1/10th ~to~ 1/5th the application rate on the label... these are fresh cuttings, and they don't need an established plant's blast of macro/micro/trace nutes (even if kelp's nute load is rather meager compared to the usual NPK ferts).
:edit:
Reading deeper in that NIH cite above, I see there is also a role for ethylene in initiating adventitious root growth. That suggests application of, e.g., Ethephon might also be helpful (or banana peels... they throw off lots of ethylene as they degrade). But, I'd have to think about application method/timing more...
- Do you apply to mothers b4 taking the cuttings -or- on the cuttings after transplanting into cubes?
- Would the latter work?
- If not, do I really want to make my vegging/pre-flower mothers take a hit of ethylene?
- Do you have controlled enough environment (or would open room allow ethylene gas to roam & threaten other pots)?
- Is it overkill (i.e., does a freshly-cut clone already produce more than enough ethylene to initiate signaling for adventitious root growth, so is more just a waste [it can't really go 'toxic']?)
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BigBozat
Member
You'll need to grind the crustacean shell really finely.
As long as your bokashi compost includes lactobacillus bacteria needed to convert chitin... seems sound to me.
IDK if TM has a diff view, but my 2 cents... depends on how you plan to grow out. Me personally, I would start cuttings in much smaller containers.
But that's cuz I prefer smaller/more compact plants to scrog (I rarely go past 5 gal, and never 7-gal, but that's just me & how I like to grow). The huge root space volume encourages never-ending veg growth... if you want to grow big plants, then that's OK/what ya want...
Yeah that's what I thought, just wanted to check, I mean my grand grand mother was putting almost full crab shells in her garden soil, same for fishes, very old school
. Do you really think that I need to grind it very finely ? Wouldn't the fermentation in the bokashi help to break down small pieces of shells instead of powder ? THanks for the quick answer BigB, I think I'm gonna go with 10 gal smart pots I have for the clones, I don't want to go smaller than that, I like big plants and for no tills I had not so good results down the 10 gal pot size. I'll wait on TM's view on this too.
Also about the cloning, I always used Aloe vera and a little bit of kelp with awesome results. I don't know about adding coconut but I don't see how it couldn't hurt anyway, I'll try it next time I take cuttings on a few. Anyway, humidity level and temperature are for me the most important keys in cloning, I've had great results (80% at least) with only water cloning.
BigBozat
Member
Yeah that's what I thought, just wanted to check, I mean my grand grand mother was putting almost full crab shells in her garden soil, same for fishes, very old school
THanks for the quick answer BigB, I think I'm gonna go with 10 gal smart pots I have for the clones, I don't want to go smaller than that, I like big plants and for no tills I had not so good results down the 10 gal pot size. I'll wait on TM's view on this too.
Well, I wouldn't say it's absolutely critical, or anything like that... it's just that grinding finely would make the ferment from the lactobacillus that much more effective on degrading/converting the chitin.
i've been having good luck using aloe to root cuts.
i make a strong aloe solution by pureeing a filet in a quart or two of water. i pour it through a strainer into labeled cups (as many as plants i'm taking cuts from).
then i prune the plants, trim up my cuts, and put them in the aloe water for 6--12 hours.
when i come back to them they look kick ass. praying to the sky.
i take them out one by one and do a fresh angled cut on the end of the stem. dip that in some fresh gel straight out of a newly sliced aloe filet to seal the wound, and then they go in whatever cloning medium you use.
i've been having great luck with beds of perlite. getting 95--100% fully rooted (like more than an inch or two) between 7--14 days, even on my hardest to root varieties.
the best part is i don't have to have an ethics debate between myself and the label on the dip-n-grow bottle anymore!
i make a strong aloe solution by pureeing a filet in a quart or two of water. i pour it through a strainer into labeled cups (as many as plants i'm taking cuts from).
then i prune the plants, trim up my cuts, and put them in the aloe water for 6--12 hours.
when i come back to them they look kick ass. praying to the sky.
i take them out one by one and do a fresh angled cut on the end of the stem. dip that in some fresh gel straight out of a newly sliced aloe filet to seal the wound, and then they go in whatever cloning medium you use.
i've been having great luck with beds of perlite. getting 95--100% fully rooted (like more than an inch or two) between 7--14 days, even on my hardest to root varieties.
the best part is i don't have to have an ethics debate between myself and the label on the dip-n-grow bottle anymore!
this is so true.
regarding tap roots from clones, you may be able to get some of the tap root effect by burying a length of the meristem in your final transplant.
strip all the leaves, shoots, and preflowers from the lower part of the stem, let's say 8--10" since you're gonna use a smart pot.
you can skip this next step and you should still get root growth from the nodes, but this will encourage root growth from the internodal stem: i like to strip the outer layer down to the cambium, a couple stripes down the length of the stem. some people add rooting hormone to the exposed cambium.
now bury the stem in the soil. new roots should form from buried nodes and the exposed cambium. the buried meristem should begin to act as a substitute taproot.
works great with tomatoes too
strip all the leaves, shoots, and preflowers from the lower part of the stem, let's say 8--10" since you're gonna use a smart pot.
you can skip this next step and you should still get root growth from the nodes, but this will encourage root growth from the internodal stem: i like to strip the outer layer down to the cambium, a couple stripes down the length of the stem. some people add rooting hormone to the exposed cambium.
now bury the stem in the soil. new roots should form from buried nodes and the exposed cambium. the buried meristem should begin to act as a substitute taproot.
works great with tomatoes too
can't say it's science, but that's how it acts IME.
GEMiNi GENETiCS
Active member
Hey TM! How's your season kicking off bro?
My supplies are coming in the past week ...
Picked up ½ dozen large coots mix ... 1cuft charged bio char .... barley and corn for SST and myco's also got a bunch of clover for cover cropping my field mounds with beneficial flowers for my green lacewings, lady bugs and mantis'(found a pod on my Xmas tree lol)...also got hairy vetch to help with nitrogen fixing ... picked up a packet of yarrow for companion planting with my canna girls
Waiting to pick up leaf mound, compost and burlap bags then I'll be good to run everything out .... field is under a few inches of water right now from the snow melting but its all good!
You running your gear out yet?
My supplies are coming in the past week ...
Picked up ½ dozen large coots mix ... 1cuft charged bio char .... barley and corn for SST and myco's also got a bunch of clover for cover cropping my field mounds with beneficial flowers for my green lacewings, lady bugs and mantis'(found a pod on my Xmas tree lol)...also got hairy vetch to help with nitrogen fixing ... picked up a packet of yarrow for companion planting with my canna girls
Waiting to pick up leaf mound, compost and burlap bags then I'll be good to run everything out .... field is under a few inches of water right now from the snow melting but its all good!
You running your gear out yet?
Heady you've been dropping some epic posts lately, thanks for sharing your techniques and knowledge brother! I'm gonna try the aloe puree for the soaking process, I've used aloe 200x powder before but I have a feeling the puree will do more justice. You had me at "when I come back they look kick ass, praying to the sky"
Yo Gemini what's good man!
I've been gathering supplies lately as well, I'm going to see how many CC Kits I can afford but for the rest of the plants I'll be using Espoma like I have before. I'll be foliar spraying with Neem/Karanja, aloe, and compost tea foliars this year for the first time so I'm hoping that those will bridge the gap between the difference in quality between the two nutrient kits. I'm def using the CC Kit on all of my prized strains though, that's for sure. I just popped my beans yesterday too, I'll be running Cheese Candy, KC 36, Spontanica, Pineapple Chunk, and a lot of the Holy Rhodi this year. I can't fuckin wait bro! What are you running strain wise?
I found Coast of Maine Lobster Compost locally for $8 a cubic foot bag, so each hole will get one of those mixed in as well, unless I can find cheaper humus of the same quality before planting. I've been thinking about cutting out the peat bales all together for my more remote spots, that's if the native soil is up to par though. That would save my back a ton of work, so I'm going to do that wherever I can.
I've got about 600 Holy Rhodi beans (Church x Purple Rhodi) I bred last years outside, and would like to litter a lot them in the wilderness - but I've never ran any true "set & forget" patches before so I'm not sure how that will go.
If you were littering 100 seedlings in the wilderness and couldn't haul supplies in (at least not bales of peat moss and heavy shit) what would you think the best soil mix would be to go with? I was thinking about just digging 5 gal holes and mixing in some Espoma, then top dressing with some compost and dropping cover crops to help aid in the lack of care/water they'll be getting all season. These sites will be up to 2 hours away from me, so visits will be limited to once a month (if that).
Btw I'm lovin your game plan so far bro. Those plants will be praying I bet! The yarrow is an awesome idea as well. I'm using ground cover crops as well, BAS has a 40% clover mix that I like a lot that also has dwarf essex rapes, lentils and a few other varieties in there. I think that's going to really make it hard to see the patches from an ariel perspective with all of that rich green surrounding the plants.. which is making me wonder if I should go with wide open patches of plants rather than single plants scattered. I'm not sure if the cover crop camo is THAT good, but if it is then that would be the way to go I think - big patches of covers with plants scattered in the middle. I've also got like 20-30 comfrey bocking 14 cuttings that I'm not sure what to do with, so I'm thinking about planting a few at each patch to take leaves from to mulch with upon visits. If I learn how to make PFE then I'll be using the comfrey for that as well...
comfrey cutting
40% BAS cover crop mix - those broad leaves are the dwarf essex rapes that I was talking about
maps of the potential patches I've still got to explore on foot
I still have some site searching to do because the snow is just melting off where I am unfortunately, but I've got a good idea of some areas with good potential. My new GPS just came this week, so I'm gonna get a feel for it before taking it out into the bush to mark some locations with. This is going to be a life saver for me, I have a bad sense of direction and getting turned around (while alone) has held me back from exploring some pretty interesting places. My buddy just got really into camping too, so when we go remote I'm going to be working on patches in the same area of the camp sites we go to (way out in the sticks). It'll def be easier to work on the sites for a few days at a time rather than driving to and from every day, so I'll be able to bang out some bigger crops out there.
When are you gonna start popping beans?
When does your season start?
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