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Team Microbe's Living Soil Laboratory
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Kiloz
Member
fuuuuuuuuqqq
:jawdrop:
I've just went through this thread and god damn TM it has been some great reading. It's threads like this that makes me come back to ICMAG year after year.
I've learned a lot from this and I'm definitely going to read more about "true" organics. A truly inspirational grow!
:jawdrop:
I've just went through this thread and god damn TM it has been some great reading. It's threads like this that makes me come back to ICMAG year after year.
I've learned a lot from this and I'm definitely going to read more about "true" organics. A truly inspirational grow!
Sounds like a good game plan to me
Man, there should be a sticky for that link alone on this forum. Where did you find that link? I was given it a few months back by a grower out in Norcal and have been giving it out to everyone that asks me for good resources about organic Ag. I've probably listened to his lectures about 5x each, I loved learning about the 4 stages of plant health the most. He's so good at speaking it just makes it easy to learn, compared to Dan and the other host who talks in that conference. Great find brother!
Oh I will be, like Gemini said I just didn't include them on my purchase list. I'm going to litter about 50 of them on a hillside I have in mind, then go back and weed out males half way through the season. Hopefully I can get every one of em!
Thanks dude, that version of Brokedown Palace in your signature is amazing btw. Thanks for that
fuuuuuuuuqqq
:jawdrop:
I've just went through this thread and god damn TM it has been some great reading. It's threads like this that makes me come back to ICMAG year after year.
I've learned a lot from this and I'm definitely going to read more about "true" organics. A truly inspirational grow!
Thank you Kiloz!!! It's grateful growers like you who make me wanna put the time in to make these threads, makes for a good learning experience for me as well since everyone chimes in with their 2 cents. I'm starting up my 2nd no-till cycle this month, it should be exciting to document so stick around - great to have ya
Cuttings for the next round
Cuttings for the next round
Well, it's time to get the next run started now that all the plants are culled. I took about 24 cuttings this week, and will be using the best 12 to flower out
First, I make a 1 gallon batch of cloning solution:
I'll soak cubes in here for 1-2 hours after mixing
I'll take this same solution and pour it into labeled shot glasses, and soak the cuttings for the 1-2 hrs the cubes are soaking for
When the soak is done, I'll simply lift the cubes out of the water and slide the cuttings into them - being sure not to squeeze any water out (this prevents air pockets from forming and getting into the stem of the clone).
From here I'll pour an inch of plain water into the tray underneath, and foliar spray the inside of the dome as well as the cuttings with the same water. I've seen guys adding aloe vera to this foliar spray, but I like to use water to keep the dome clean for the most part.
Underneath goes a heating pad - the goal is warm roots and cool above ground biomass. Here's a piece of info I read the other day explaining why:
No matter what you use to get the job done, all the methods will have at least a few things in common.
1. Temperature
2. Relative Humidity & Light Intensity
3. Oxygen and Moisture Supply
But Why? Why does the temperature matter? Why the humidity? When you know exactly why, you'll look at cloning in a whole new light.
"Fundamentals Of Horticulture"
Page 198
"Cuttings which require leaves are taken from herbaceous plants or from woody plants when the wood is immature. With these cuttings, rapid healing of the wounded surface and rapid production of roots are indispensable to the welfare of the cutting. If the cut surface heals slowly or not at all, most of the all-important water within the cutting escapes, and rot-producing organisms are likely to invade the tissues. How does the cutting heal the wounded surface? In general, immediately after the cut is made the intercellular spaces and the cells just beneath the cut become filled with sap. The sugars in the sap change to unsaturated fatty acids, and these, in turn, combine with oxygen of the air in the formation of the skinlike, varnish-like layer of material, or suberin. Suberin possesses the remarkable property of keeping the water within the cutting and resisting the attacks of rot-producing organisms. However, this layer is effective for a short time only since it is very shallow and nonelastic and cannot adjust itself to changes in water pressure within the cutting due to the intake and outgo of water. For these reasons a more permanent layer is formed. How does the cutting develop this layer? In general, in very young dicotyledonous herbaceous stems the permanent layer develops from the pericycle or cortex. These tissues have the ability to change into meristem and thus produce new cells. On the other hand, in relatively old dicotyledonous herbaceous stems and in immature woody stems, the permanent layer develops from the cambium. In both cases the walls of the new cells are impregnated with suberin, tannin and other materials and they are corky in nature. Since this layer is being renewed constantly, it is durable; since it is several cells thick, it is deep-seated; and since it is elastic, it withstands the stress and strain due to changes in water absorption and transpiration. How does the cutting develop the root system? In general, the pericycle in young stems and the cambium in the somewhat older stems develop growing points, and these growing points develop into individual roots.
Is there anything that can be done to facilitate the development of the temporary and permanent protective layers and the production of roots with rapidity? A discussion of important factors follow.
Temperature - Since with cuttings which require leaves the problem consists in producing roots from shoots, growth of the tops is retarded and growth of the roots is accelerated. The problem, therefore, is to keep the tops cool and the basal end of the cuttings relatively warm. In general, this is done by maintaining a relatively low air temperature and by applying artificial heat to the medium in which the cuttings are placed. The low air temperature, combined with high humidity of the air, maintains a low rate of transpiration. This low rate of transpiration keeps the guard cells turgid and the stomates open. As a result, carbon diozide diffuses in to the leaves and carbohydrate and hormone manufacture takes place. The relatively high temperature at the base of the cuttings promotes rapid oxidation of the fatty acids in the formation of suberin and speeds up the rate of cell division in the formation of the corky layer and the development of the root system.
The application of heat to the basal portion of cuttings is known as bottom heat. Bottom heat is applied in various ways: by lead covered electric resistance, wire, by steam in pipes, and by hot water in pipes. (Or Seedling Heating Mat) Many experiments have shown that high rooting-media temperatures, combined with relatively low air temperatures, facilitate rapid root production. For example, tests at the Ohio Experiment Station have shown that chrysanthemum cuttings kept in sand at 60 F produced a satisfactory root system in 10 days, whereas a comparable lot kept in sand ad 50 F required 20 days.
Relative Humidity and Light Intensity - These factors affect both transpiration and photosynthesis. The student will recall that relative humidity and light intensity have opposite effects on the rate of transpiration. In general, high relative humidity promotes low rates of transpiration and high light intensity promotes high rates. Since low rates of transpiration are needed and since light is needed for making of the carbohydrates and the hormones, the higher the relative humidity, the greater will be the amount of light the leaves can absorb without wilting. For this reason a high relative humidity is maintained.
Oxygen and Moisture Supply - The formation of suberin requires abundant oxygen, and the rapidly dividing meristem requires both abundant oxygen and water. Hence, in the rooting of cuttings, media are used which will enable the growing points to obtain abundant oxygen and, at the same time sufficient moisture for rapid root production. In general, washed, sharp, silica sand, mixtures of sand and peat moss, vermiculite, and mixtures of sand and perlite are satisfactory propagating media for herbaceous and softwood cuttings. These materials are porous, easily drained, and hold sufficient moisture for rapid root development.
Mist propagation of Herbaceous and Softwood Cuttings - Mist propagation consists of maintaining a film of water on the leaves of the cutting and a high relative humidity of the ambient air. In this way, the rate of transpiration is reduced to a minimum, and as a result the guard cells remain turgid, the stomates remain open, and the manufacture of carbohydrates and related substances proceeds unabated even in the presence of high light intensity. Further, with high light intensity, the evaporation of water from the leaves keeps the tops relatively cool, and this in turn lowers the rate of respiration. Thus, with the low rate or transpiration combined with the low rate of respiration, high rates of apparent photosynthesis take place and abundant carbohydrates and other manufactured substances become available for the initiation and growth of the root system.
The book then goes on to describe various methods of automating misting etc. We feel that a light misting and using a humidity dome is best for the small scale grower."
Cuttings for the next round
Well, it's time to get the next run started now that all the plants are culled. I took about 24 cuttings this week, and will be using the best 12 to flower out
First, I make a 1 gallon batch of cloning solution:
I'll soak cubes in here for 1-2 hours after mixing
I'll take this same solution and pour it into labeled shot glasses, and soak the cuttings for the 1-2 hrs the cubes are soaking for
When the soak is done, I'll simply lift the cubes out of the water and slide the cuttings into them - being sure not to squeeze any water out (this prevents air pockets from forming and getting into the stem of the clone).
From here I'll pour an inch of plain water into the tray underneath, and foliar spray the inside of the dome as well as the cuttings with the same water. I've seen guys adding aloe vera to this foliar spray, but I like to use water to keep the dome clean for the most part.
Underneath goes a heating pad - the goal is warm roots and cool above ground biomass. Here's a piece of info I read the other day explaining why:
No matter what you use to get the job done, all the methods will have at least a few things in common.
1. Temperature
2. Relative Humidity & Light Intensity
3. Oxygen and Moisture Supply
But Why? Why does the temperature matter? Why the humidity? When you know exactly why, you'll look at cloning in a whole new light.
"Fundamentals Of Horticulture"
Page 198
"Cuttings which require leaves are taken from herbaceous plants or from woody plants when the wood is immature. With these cuttings, rapid healing of the wounded surface and rapid production of roots are indispensable to the welfare of the cutting. If the cut surface heals slowly or not at all, most of the all-important water within the cutting escapes, and rot-producing organisms are likely to invade the tissues. How does the cutting heal the wounded surface? In general, immediately after the cut is made the intercellular spaces and the cells just beneath the cut become filled with sap. The sugars in the sap change to unsaturated fatty acids, and these, in turn, combine with oxygen of the air in the formation of the skinlike, varnish-like layer of material, or suberin. Suberin possesses the remarkable property of keeping the water within the cutting and resisting the attacks of rot-producing organisms. However, this layer is effective for a short time only since it is very shallow and nonelastic and cannot adjust itself to changes in water pressure within the cutting due to the intake and outgo of water. For these reasons a more permanent layer is formed. How does the cutting develop this layer? In general, in very young dicotyledonous herbaceous stems the permanent layer develops from the pericycle or cortex. These tissues have the ability to change into meristem and thus produce new cells. On the other hand, in relatively old dicotyledonous herbaceous stems and in immature woody stems, the permanent layer develops from the cambium. In both cases the walls of the new cells are impregnated with suberin, tannin and other materials and they are corky in nature. Since this layer is being renewed constantly, it is durable; since it is several cells thick, it is deep-seated; and since it is elastic, it withstands the stress and strain due to changes in water absorption and transpiration. How does the cutting develop the root system? In general, the pericycle in young stems and the cambium in the somewhat older stems develop growing points, and these growing points develop into individual roots.
Is there anything that can be done to facilitate the development of the temporary and permanent protective layers and the production of roots with rapidity? A discussion of important factors follow.
Temperature - Since with cuttings which require leaves the problem consists in producing roots from shoots, growth of the tops is retarded and growth of the roots is accelerated. The problem, therefore, is to keep the tops cool and the basal end of the cuttings relatively warm. In general, this is done by maintaining a relatively low air temperature and by applying artificial heat to the medium in which the cuttings are placed. The low air temperature, combined with high humidity of the air, maintains a low rate of transpiration. This low rate of transpiration keeps the guard cells turgid and the stomates open. As a result, carbon diozide diffuses in to the leaves and carbohydrate and hormone manufacture takes place. The relatively high temperature at the base of the cuttings promotes rapid oxidation of the fatty acids in the formation of suberin and speeds up the rate of cell division in the formation of the corky layer and the development of the root system.
The application of heat to the basal portion of cuttings is known as bottom heat. Bottom heat is applied in various ways: by lead covered electric resistance, wire, by steam in pipes, and by hot water in pipes. (Or Seedling Heating Mat) Many experiments have shown that high rooting-media temperatures, combined with relatively low air temperatures, facilitate rapid root production. For example, tests at the Ohio Experiment Station have shown that chrysanthemum cuttings kept in sand at 60 F produced a satisfactory root system in 10 days, whereas a comparable lot kept in sand ad 50 F required 20 days.
Relative Humidity and Light Intensity - These factors affect both transpiration and photosynthesis. The student will recall that relative humidity and light intensity have opposite effects on the rate of transpiration. In general, high relative humidity promotes low rates of transpiration and high light intensity promotes high rates. Since low rates of transpiration are needed and since light is needed for making of the carbohydrates and the hormones, the higher the relative humidity, the greater will be the amount of light the leaves can absorb without wilting. For this reason a high relative humidity is maintained.
Oxygen and Moisture Supply - The formation of suberin requires abundant oxygen, and the rapidly dividing meristem requires both abundant oxygen and water. Hence, in the rooting of cuttings, media are used which will enable the growing points to obtain abundant oxygen and, at the same time sufficient moisture for rapid root production. In general, washed, sharp, silica sand, mixtures of sand and peat moss, vermiculite, and mixtures of sand and perlite are satisfactory propagating media for herbaceous and softwood cuttings. These materials are porous, easily drained, and hold sufficient moisture for rapid root development.
Mist propagation of Herbaceous and Softwood Cuttings - Mist propagation consists of maintaining a film of water on the leaves of the cutting and a high relative humidity of the ambient air. In this way, the rate of transpiration is reduced to a minimum, and as a result the guard cells remain turgid, the stomates remain open, and the manufacture of carbohydrates and related substances proceeds unabated even in the presence of high light intensity. Further, with high light intensity, the evaporation of water from the leaves keeps the tops relatively cool, and this in turn lowers the rate of respiration. Thus, with the low rate or transpiration combined with the low rate of respiration, high rates of apparent photosynthesis take place and abundant carbohydrates and other manufactured substances become available for the initiation and growth of the root system.
The book then goes on to describe various methods of automating misting etc. We feel that a light misting and using a humidity dome is best for the small scale grower."
Also check out this tutorial if you want a step by step how-to for this entire process... this is the one I use:
How to clone organically - ditch the rooting hormone products
How to clone organically - ditch the rooting hormone products
My own experience attests to how important having bottom heat can be for getting cuttings to root. I have also seen cultivars with different temperature sensitivities. I have not used the aloe powder or ful or agsil, but i have used just aloe fillet with great success.
Great message. No need for fancy stuff to get healthy clones.
Great message. No need for fancy stuff to get healthy clones.
Yeah I've had similar problems when my room was too cold to root clones... I had the majority die out on me a couple times because it was too cold and then when heat is introduced success rates sky rocket - it really makes a difference, you're right. I've yet to use fillet but I will the first chance I get, my aloe cuttings are just beginning to root out finally. Can't wait!
Ftscustm
Member
I feel like a toddler in a masters degree setting
I feel like a toddler in a masters degree setting
Quote: "..being sure not to squeeze any water out (this prevents air pockets from forming and getting into the stem of the clone). "
I have spent....too much time chasing the answer to this question I didn't know to ask you - Thank you, the bit, as always that was problematic in my method was me. I knew it but couldn't track down why? I found that because of the way I was enlarging the holes (in Rockwool cubes at the time - nasty things!), that I was allowing a small space of air around the base of the stem which ultimately killed the cutting, and corrected this. Continued, albeit now limited failure has had me cracking my skull of the wall since my submersion in the delights of green digits. You have turned a part of my brain off that has been shouting for too long: I shall be forever grateful.
Your world makes me feel like a small child who has entered a wood, one that has been forbidden to him all his life. This day, lacking faith in the world around, emboldened by adventure, The boy pushes threw the undergrowth and tree branches, ignoring the scraping and tearing of his skin. Within the deep confines of this wood is a small hut, hopelessly lost now, he enters without knocking. No one is home yet the space crawls with dank delights. The hairs first stand up on the backs of his hands and then quickly run over his body in a rush of excitement. Standing alone in one corner is a cabinet, or chest perhaps. This is a holy place, one where true secrets lie and mysteries can be revealed.
The world around you and the people you attract to it is a very special place: Thank you for your warmth...and for closing down my cloning question that I didn't know I had!
I feel like a toddler in a masters degree setting
Quote: "..being sure not to squeeze any water out (this prevents air pockets from forming and getting into the stem of the clone). "
I have spent....too much time chasing the answer to this question I didn't know to ask you - Thank you, the bit, as always that was problematic in my method was me. I knew it but couldn't track down why? I found that because of the way I was enlarging the holes (in Rockwool cubes at the time - nasty things!), that I was allowing a small space of air around the base of the stem which ultimately killed the cutting, and corrected this. Continued, albeit now limited failure has had me cracking my skull of the wall since my submersion in the delights of green digits. You have turned a part of my brain off that has been shouting for too long: I shall be forever grateful.
Your world makes me feel like a small child who has entered a wood, one that has been forbidden to him all his life. This day, lacking faith in the world around, emboldened by adventure, The boy pushes threw the undergrowth and tree branches, ignoring the scraping and tearing of his skin. Within the deep confines of this wood is a small hut, hopelessly lost now, he enters without knocking. No one is home yet the space crawls with dank delights. The hairs first stand up on the backs of his hands and then quickly run over his body in a rush of excitement. Standing alone in one corner is a cabinet, or chest perhaps. This is a holy place, one where true secrets lie and mysteries can be revealed.
The world around you and the people you attract to it is a very special place: Thank you for your warmth...and for closing down my cloning question that I didn't know I had!
mhmm... I just recently learned this trick too. For so many years I would squeeze out excess water in rockwool and root riots then wonder why I wasn't getting roots. DOH!
Kiloz
Member
mhmm... I just recently learned this trick too. For so many years I would squeeze out excess water in rockwool and root riots then wonder why I wasn't getting roots. DOH!
Its the simple things huh... damn you learn something new everyday lol
"From here I'll pour an inch of plain water into the tray underneath" -TM
this sounds great! thanks TM! I have learned so much from this thread, really enjoying it. and my plants are far more healthy since leaving the bottles behind. Again thank you for all this great info and effort you put in to this!
this sounds great! thanks TM! I have learned so much from this thread, really enjoying it. and my plants are far more healthy since leaving the bottles behind. Again thank you for all this great info and effort you put in to this!
"From here I'll pour an inch of plain water into the tray underneath" -TM
this sounds great! thanks TM! I have learned so much from this thread, really enjoying it. and my plants are far more healthy since leaving the bottles behind. Again thank you for all this great info and effort you put in to this!
No problem dude
I should've said 1/2''-1'' of water though, it all depends on how low your cubes go down in their tray. I pour enough in to basically keep them moist, but not wet.
But yeah! I saw the same results after I stopped hitting the hydro store, and wanted to spread that secret that the synthetic industry doesn't us to know about. So glad you got use out of the thread, tonight I'm going to lay down my first top dress to begin the 2nd cycle of no-till for these 10 gal pots (some 7 gals in there as well) and will explain exactly how to do it from what I've learned from some of the best (mainly Blue Jay over at Grasscity). Stay tuned!
Purchased new pots today
Purchased new pots today
The next round will consist of 25 gallon pots, I made my choice!
Purchased new pots today
The next round will consist of 25 gallon pots, I made my choice!
How's it going TM?!
Question:copied from page 1 of this thread. *Biweekly I add 1/2 tsp per gal of TM-7 (humic acids)
*I'll brew a compost tea every 4 weeks or if I forget to water and pots dry out too much.
Cutting Solution: (1 gal)
-1/8 tsp 200x Aloe Vera Powder
-5 ml Agsil16H
-20-30 ml FulPower
*Soak cubes for at least 1 hour, then place in tray w/ heating mat. Fill tray with water only underneath, wait 10-15 days for roots.
Question #1. It would be alright just to add the TM7 to the coconut, aloe, AgSil mix right? Or do you just do a straight Gal/TM7 mix. I do the watering regimen with BioAg as you are doing.
Question #2. I have a EZ-Cloner and wanted to use your cloning solution in it. I also would like to use 1/2 cup of EWC in it as well. Do you see a problem with it?
Question:copied from page 1 of this thread. *Biweekly I add 1/2 tsp per gal of TM-7 (humic acids)
*I'll brew a compost tea every 4 weeks or if I forget to water and pots dry out too much.
Cutting Solution: (1 gal)
-1/8 tsp 200x Aloe Vera Powder
-5 ml Agsil16H
-20-30 ml FulPower
*Soak cubes for at least 1 hour, then place in tray w/ heating mat. Fill tray with water only underneath, wait 10-15 days for roots.
Question #1. It would be alright just to add the TM7 to the coconut, aloe, AgSil mix right? Or do you just do a straight Gal/TM7 mix. I do the watering regimen with BioAg as you are doing.
Question #2. I have a EZ-Cloner and wanted to use your cloning solution in it. I also would like to use 1/2 cup of EWC in it as well. Do you see a problem with it?
#1. Yes, the TM7 is simply added in with whatevers on schedule at the time - it's only humic acids in powder form so mixes fine with everything.
#2. I wouldn't use anything that will gunk up your misters in the cloner, I've actually seen guys come out with giant root masses from just using tap water. It's all about temperature and humidity for the most part with those systems, that and of course taking cuttings in a sterile environment. I bet you can use straight water... but if you want to add something else in then keep it liquid only to prevent any cuttings from being cut off from the mist.
#2. I wouldn't use anything that will gunk up your misters in the cloner, I've actually seen guys come out with giant root masses from just using tap water. It's all about temperature and humidity for the most part with those systems, that and of course taking cuttings in a sterile environment. I bet you can use straight water... but if you want to add something else in then keep it liquid only to prevent any cuttings from being cut off from the mist.
Please link to your new thread bro. I'll be there for sure.
w4tch
Member
Wow this is a very resourceful thread! You haven't failed to impress me yet!
Couple quick questions if you don't mind.
1) What kind of kelp do you use in the veg tea? Where can i find it?
2) There are a ton of local farms around me that advertise that they sell compost. Should I look for any particular ingredients? Should I buy something off the web thats proven to work for the compost ingredient? where?
3)For an outdoor guerrilla grow can I scrape by with teas once a month and watering with regular water about once a week if its dry out?or would you use all the additives in the feeding schedule outdoors? or the tea more frequently? From what I've read you really like the coco water, etc
4)Have you found any good places on the web for rice hulls?
Thanks again for your time and the abundance of information!
Couple quick questions if you don't mind.
1) What kind of kelp do you use in the veg tea? Where can i find it?
2) There are a ton of local farms around me that advertise that they sell compost. Should I look for any particular ingredients? Should I buy something off the web thats proven to work for the compost ingredient? where?
3)For an outdoor guerrilla grow can I scrape by with teas once a month and watering with regular water about once a week if its dry out?or would you use all the additives in the feeding schedule outdoors? or the tea more frequently? From what I've read you really like the coco water, etc
4)Have you found any good places on the web for rice hulls?
Thanks again for your time and the abundance of information!
Thanks bro! Those are truly kind words!
1) Acadian Kelp - I source mine here
2) Compost is a tricky one sometimes. It's important to ask how it was made and what they used in it, if they sound like they know what they're talking about then that's a good sign. I like to pick it up and play with it in my hand, smell it, and see if there's any ammonia smell to it (this means it's gone anaerobic). If not, and there's that rich organic reek to it then it's good. The darker the shade the better as well, that's why they call rich humus "black gold". I will use this compost in my outdoor gardens but for my indoor grow I keep it controlled, so I'll buy quality bagged compost like Oly Mtn Fish Compost or Worm Power EWC.
3) Yes you can def scrape by with water and tea, and that wouldn't be scraping at all either. This recipe is water-only, but boosting biology only helps the entire system truck along that much smoother. I probably wouldn't use all of the plant supplements on my outdoor patches as often as I would an indoor grow, but I would still use all of them at least once during the grow season. Probably 5x each during the season, depending on how deep my pockets are at the time. The coconut water will deliver those cytokines to the plant that cause it to really "bush out" and the lowers will reach for the top of the plant pretty much. This is the main reason I use it, because I like to avoid the classic Christmas Tree visual and tie tops down horizontally to the ground. The plant will be penetrated by light better as well, and I feel like a higher potential is reachable in doing so.
What's your water source?
Plant in the ground, and try to find the water table if possible when digging holes if water levels are typically low. I've also found that heavily mulching holes and down-setting plants helps conserve water well, as well as adding at least 20-30% organic matter to the soil mix. It's like adding organic water crystals, because compost and humus in itself retains 80% more water than a soilless mix. This is why I mix 20% in with my outdoor mixes, and then mulch with straw, then chicken poop on top of that.
4) I have actually, there's a whole thread about it too and I'll link you to that as well because they talk about getting it straight from Rice Land (the country's supplier pretty much).
Cheapest online site I've found
Rice hull thread
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