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TAG - Landing (Resource for True Aero Growing)

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G

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Alright forgive me for filling the threads again, but...

This was some very interesting information I found concerning my own necrotic patches on my leaves..it does still appear to be a form of K def...can you believe that shit? I'm thinking Mg and P (maybe a little P I've found) but it still seems to be only the major need for K ...wow.

"Potassium (K) deficiency causes slight mottling and brownish-yellow spots on leaf tips. Later there are brownish-yellow spots on leaf tips. Later there are brownish-yellow spots along leaf margins that become necrotic and fall out, leaving a ragged appeareance. Leaves may be puckered, with the tips and margins curled downward. Symptoms first appear on lower leaves in young plants and upper leaves on older plants. Symptoms are more acute on rapidly growing plants and may be accentuated by excess N. Excess K does not causes visible symptoms."

Which means you can't 'burn' with too much K doesn't it? hmmmmm

"Magnesium (Mg) deficiency, sometimes called “sand drown,” occurs primarily on sandy soils during seasons of excessive rainfall. The first symptom of deficiency is loss of green color from lower leaves. On individual leaves it begins at the tips and margins and proceeds toward the base and center. Interveinal tissues become chlorotic while veinal areas remain green (photo). In extreme cases, lower leaves turn almost white and chlorotic symptoms progress to higher leaves. (Note this) Mg deficient leaves rarely develop necrotic spots. It may occur at any stage of growth but occurs most often following rapid growth during the leaf production phase (4-8 weeks after transplanting). (Note this) High rates of K and/or Ca on low Mg soils may enhance Mg deficiency."

Interesting points to remember.

Here is an example of a Mg def, with no burning.


And here K def with burning..


"Symptoms of K deficiency in tobacco first appear on lower or middle leaves and move up the plant as the problem becomes more severe. The distinguishing characteristic is mottled or "scorched" appearance that develops at the tips and along the edges of leaves. In the early stages, mottles are pale green or yellow, followed by the development of brown or dead centers. As the deficiency increases, mottles tend to run together and the dead areas fall out resulting in ragged leaf margins. Because the remaining green areas continue to grow, leaves often develop a crumpled or puckered appearance with edges cupping downward. K deficiencies appear to be encouraged by dry weather. Also, tobacco is usually less stunted by a deficiency of K than by a deficiency of either N or P."
 
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JustATry

Member
Interesting find PR. I am not seeing any of the same problems you are seeing. But, I am also running near 1800 PPM where you are 1300 if I remember correctly. Maybe you need to bump it up.

No go on the nitric acid. The order came in and it was potassium hydroxide instead. The only company I could find that produces pH down using Nitric Acid is Technoflora (AKA BC Nutes). But I can't find anyone online who is selling the shit.

Good news is my hydro store just started carrying the full line of DutchMaster's. :yes: I am going to pickup some 2.5 gallon jugs of the flower and veg for next grow.
 

Danks2005

Active member
When using an accumulator tank would you plug the solenoid valve and the diaphram pump into the cyclic timer so that the pump turns on right as the valve opens?

You guys seem to really like that Dutch Masters fert. I might give it a try on the next grow, I'm amazed that you can run it with such high ppm's.
 
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JustATry

Member
Danks2005 - you would only use the cycle timer on the solenoid valve. The pump will prime everything, assuming you are using a pump with a pressure switch, once the pressure drops below a preset value. In my case, the pump kicks on when the tank drops to 75 PSI or below.

The DutchMaster One is superior to anything I have run to date; GH 3-part, GH FloraNova, and PBP. I loved the PBP, but it didn't have the chelated solution like the DutchMaster's is kicking ass with. You can see from the following pics how healthy everything is with the DM1.

PR - you are absolutely right on your finding of clones. I took clones this weekend, about 100 from my veg'in moms, and 20 from plants that have been in flowering. To my amazement I found that 50% of the clones I took from the flowering plants were showing roots in 48 hours. That shit is nuts!!! I wonder if they will stall at all going back into veg?



Here are some pics of the girls without the HID's on. I guess they really don't look as bad as light as I thought, that HPS was just playing tricks on me. Everything is lush and healthy as can be! :yes:

 
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Danks2005

Active member
Ok, now I think I get it. The whole system stays pressurized behind the solenoid valve. Thanks a lot JAT. Now if I can just think of a good efficient way to get the water from the root zone to a rez outside the grow. I beleive I will be joining you guys in a couple of months. Thanks again everyone involved in this thread.
 

JustATry

Member
Danks - just run 1/2" PVC to the room and back - it will hold up to 150 PSI (I think) and is cheap. I am going to have to do this after this grow to hook up another 2 tables. Check back in a month or so and I am sure to have pics abound.

betterboy - I am running a Shurflo 8000-813-238. I know this pump can go up to atleast 120 PSI, even though it's rated at 100. It's 115V, 1.6 GPM, and quite as shit. I think it was around $150'ish. I am going to get two more here soon; one for my other 2 tables and one as a backup.

Oh, I missed your link about the solenoid. Yes, that will work just fine. Although, you can pick them up at HD for about $25. Remember, these valves are DC, so you will also need the 24VDC transformer. Another $9 I think.
 
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G

Guest

LOL ...wow, take a nap and bam! Its on again. LOL

Love to you all. :D

JAT - yeah, I thought I was having P def or Mg as I'm seeing (like you) under super high intensity light I thought I had some issues. Upon lights out it is hard to find an actual leaf with issues...this was my best example and its a really old one.



And that is scanned in under 300 dpi using a flatbed scanner. But you can see clearly it is a residual scarring from the week of unknown Ph...I could have easily been in a range outside of optimal uptake.

I just persist in not wanting to believe they can consume that much K...its really alarming, but I suppose if their entire structure is built from it, might as well. But I'd say you could very easily just make your base 1200 DM1 Flower and take it to 1600 with MAX and only use MAX and POT+ from then on. I don't see any N def at all, P isn't really def (just eaten constantly out of the water) but the K def persists to this day as the only real issue.

I think the accelerated growth puts a huge demand on K and Mg in TAG...I'd suggest supplementing both by week 4. More the K than anything, but that Nitric Acid would be the trick.

JAT - you can just order it directly from a chemical company. I did that with my Phosphoric acid. Its about 70% so I can just add either a few drops or mix it down to a 10% solution for adjusting the ph. The bottle cost me like $17 and I've used 1/4 in 2 years. The problem with the Nitric is that it is very dangerous (vapor and skin contact) so they don't push it in the states as P is close to as good as you'd need for basic hydro. But the Nitric has a different effect on the water and works better not to build up phosphates and shit you don't want that will cause Mn and Mb lock out as well as other weird shit.

Whew...What a day, eh? My main point was to illustrate that Mg def doesn't usually lead to choleric patches on green leaves. So unless you see a yellowing as well, it is still K def and there isn't any real issue with too high a K except to lock out the N eventually. But my girls look plenty green for N.

Also, I might add I've put in a sub-aquatic CO2 line (the old yeast version) which always seems to do wonders as well, so we'll see. Ph is still holding at 5.7 as of lights out. :yes: Water is a little murky from the Mg addition (its Home Depot shit).

I think we should come up with a way to make TAG TEA with Humic Acids and such where we can strain them through a 200 mesh filter before adding them to pods. That might be the secret here, unless DM has something comparable.

Speaking of which, do they make a ph up or down, I know they have a buffer. Let me look into that.

Meanwhile...:yes: everybody is looking sweet for the ride...JAT you are going to have a freakin' forrest in there...you better send me a branch (not that you haven't right? lol) Those girls not only look awesomely healthy...they are ready to go!

Oh, and yeah...they re-veg from that 2 week flower stage with no problems in my experience. I told ya, I think they have a panic hormone that says 'shit! we are out of water...we have flowers comin' get to work on the roots bitch!' :biglaugh: And pop 48 hrs later roots! It beats 10 days of vegging veg cuts. That was what I meant, my flowering clones would surpass my veg clones to the point I'd toss the veg clones and just run with the re-vegged. If that makes any sense. :bat:
 
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Danks2005

Active member
JAT do your roots grow into your drain, if so does it cause any drainage problems? If not how do you keep them from growing into the drain. How deep do you think the root zone should be? Is 2' sufficient or would 3' be better? If I was to run 2 plants per square about how tall would you flower them at? I was originally planning on running 4 per square foot with no veg, but am starting to lean towards 2 with a little veg. Sorry for all the questions, but I've just about got it :)
 

JustATry

Member
PR - you snooze, you lose. :) I agree, those HID's fuck with my eyes. I have been wearing my UV glasses when I am working in there so I can actually see when I walk out. That's helping a lot.

Danks - no, my roots do not grow into my drain. PR, what about yours? I have 3' of vertical space for the roots to hang out in, PR I think is 2'. These are the first runs with these setups so we really don't have a definitive '2 feet is better than 3 feet' answer. It's kinda freeballin' it right now. lol I am running 25 plants in a 4'x4' area, so that's what... ...1.5 plants sq/ft. I think veg time is a must in TAG. Without some decent veg you are going to end up with 10-15 gram producers. I have a second table that has zero veg due to an accident where I lost a whole table of 2 week old clones. So I had to take rooted clones straight into flowering. They are doing better than I had hoped, but not as well as I would like. Forsure, I will be veg'in for a bit from now on.

And just for comparison sake... ...7 days veg versus 0 veg.



Pretty big difference for 7 days. :joint:
 
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Danks2005

Active member
You guys are awesome. I have been interested in aero for quite some time, and now I feel like I have a good enough understanding to build my own system. Now all I have to do is make some money to buy all this new equipment LOL. You know you think you might be able to make a buck or two from this hobby but it all finds its way right back into the grow LOL. Thanks again guys, I gotta go to bed then come back tomorrow and read up on these DM ferts.
 
G

Guest

It definitely appears to be an issue with indies for sure. Those Blueberries just never get off the ground for me, they are all those little shrub looking ones in the pic. Only the Sat dominants go bezerk and don't care if they've vegged or not.

Case and point, the RhinoxBlue (This is one month of TAG flowering)





As far as your root zone, the more the better for Aero period. However you don't need more than about 18-36". It really depends on your growing style and how far you veg them. I don't have an issue with roots in the drain as they rarely get longer than just a few taps onto the floor, like mentioned earlier in this thread.

In TAG the roots will attempt to fill the 'Aerospace' so whatever that is they will try to maximize. As long as they can get aerosol nutrients to all locations they will continue to grow thick, but not so much down until they need to feed fruits. The hairs feed the buds.

But even like this...


the roots will stop at the floor as they are getting enough heavily aerated water and don't need to seek the res like they do in aerotubes, where they are choking to death. TAG roots breath like lungs, and are oddly shaped as such. They must remain moist and humid and with a constant exchange of fresh gases and air, just like your lungs. Keep the droplets within 50µ and you'll never see taps, just a ball of hairy roots and thick ass buds on top. :D
 
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JustATry

Member
I would concur that I think sat dominant strains are going to soar above the indies in TAG. Hence why my next run will be Trainwreck, White Rhino x Blueberry, White Widow, and HOG. For the run after that I have some Heavy Duty Fruity and Blueberry veggin away right now. Maybe I will do 2 tables of indies and 2 tables of sats. :woohoo:
 
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G

Guest

Yeah, just run the indies till they are 12" tall and top them. The sats, like you see, grow like a fuckin' vine...you can do whatever you want once they are into TAE. They will re-veg from 54 day old buds without a problem. I love me Sats. :yes:

I just gotta figure out what is up with this weird ass Cinnatree. :yoinks: You know, I always have one freak mutant in every grow I swear. My first FAG I had a monster Oasis from hell (god loved that bitch), the WonderTwins saw Clone 8 (the mercilous) and now the PeaceKeeper Cinnatree. Its like one plant is always just a little too close to the reactor plant. :biglaugh: However, if they produce like any of their predecessors...I'll take it!
 
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JustATry

Member
PR, you fucker, you jinxed me!! I was looking around thinking I should trim back some of the larger fan leaves and found this -



It sure does look similar to what you are seeing. Looks like a P and Mg issue to me. Are you running Veg only or a combo of that and Flower? Is the pic you posted only on the lower leaves or all over? Mine is only showing on the lower most fan leaf. I was thinking of adding some CalMag to the solution. Extra Ca, Mg, and N... :chin:

What was the verdict on that thread over at OG about trimming fan leaves versus not? I remember you telling me you were following it a while back. Didn't the yield come out the same regardless of trimming? I have tons of bud sites that are being shaded by leaves larger than my hand which I am thinking I could trim off.
 
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G

Guest

There was no sustainable difference between removing the fan leaves or not actually. It really didn't matter either way, other than to take more than 50% at one time, which will stall them and stress them too much.

That looks like the beginning of K def, the speckling is common in Skunk strains. It looks like freckles all over the leaves, sort of like (dare I say it) the Borg!

That is why I was doing all that research. I thought it had to be P def as the K seems like it should be set, but honestly...all I can track it down too is K def overall.

The symptoms are specific for K def that the tips 'burn' or turn brown. I'm finding there seems to be this really obvious correlation.

Acid defs = yellowing and weakness
Base defs = crispy edges and speckles or chlorotic leaves.

Magnesium (Mg) - Interveinal chlorotic mottling or marbling of the older leaves which proceeds toward the younger leaves as the deficiency becomes more severe. The chlorotic interveinal yellow patches usually occur toward the center of the leaf with the margins being the last to turn yellow.

Phosphorus (P) - Restricted and spindly growth similar to that of nitrogen deficiency. Leaf color is usually dull dark green to bluish green with purpling of petioles and the veins on underside of younger leaves. Younger leaves may be yellowish green with purple veins with N deficiency and darker green with P deficiency. Otherwise, N and P deficiencies are very much alike.

I am using exclusively Flowering products. Currently running DM1 Flower/Max/Pot+ and a dash of Mg supplement. My damage is only on the lower leaves and as stated might just be a residual effect from the week I waited for the Ph controller ...as I had no idea what the ph was. Those flux sometimes don't show effects for a week or so, so what you might be seeing in older leaves is a reaction to that pump issue you had and it is just showing up now.

How does the new growth look?

My current new growth looks great, like this:


But this is how it progresses just so you know what to look for...

First the freckles...Then Advanced


I noticed this in my Skunk 1# as they suffered the K def and Ca def the greatest...but the yields were not hindered too greatly for a FAG.


Meanwhile the Oasis leaves were very healthy and I think eating all the K and Ca and starving the Skunks. JMHO :smile:



My older leaves now... and that Mg Sup I'm using... ph still at 5.8 this morning 24 hours later...think this helps, just need a clearer form (the Cal/Mag might work very well here) however I'm concerned with altering the DM1 Ca:Mg ratios....but I suppose I am anyway. :bat:


This supplement has a lot of chelated Mg and S and Fe so I'm hopeful it stays floating around until needed and shut that part up. :D

A good example here looking down...the new leaves over the older ones below.


JAT - Those freckles will enlarge and become those rust spots then mottle the end of the older leaves. I only see it on mature leaves and never the new growth..the new growth always looks healthy, so I'm just thinking it the plant pulling its K resources out of the old leaves for the new accelerated growth.

As you can see the Skunks were at 1050 ppms of BC/AwesomeBlossom and a whole host of shit but the def continued through to harvest. My max on that grow was only 1800 ppms. I ran the Widow higher at sometimes 2200 ppms but had mad issues with the pumps and leaks and shit for the entire grow...so no telling, but they only got bigger and thicker.

My opinion as of today, begin flowering at 1200 and by week 2 be upwards of 1600 using MAX/Pot+ (whatever is the PK boost) starting week 3. You'll want to load in heavy right at the end of stretch at week 3 or they'll def by week 5 if you don't. You could go up to 1800 ppms safely if not a little higher...but I don't know. I'd just lay heavy on the P/K starting right now! lol

I think a combo 1-2 punch of CAL/Mag Plus and DM1 Pot+ would be the primary additive for the transition period from stretch to flowerset and pretty much all the way through.
 
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G

Guest

Now I still have 4 weeks to go..lol

Now I still have 4 weeks to go..lol

So here are some more pictures...cause I'm just fuckin' crazy here.

Like I said before, the HOG mom is loveing it. She is showing no defs.



The PeaceKeeper...today


Here is a Rhinosickle (zero veg) where you can see the def in the older leaves.



The sample RhinoxBlue is seeing little def as well.



And just Insane Roots...god, love those!

 
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G

Guest

Yeah, I can't tell which I think is more beautiful. :biglaugh:

My NEW TOY IS HERE!!!


UPDATE: Well this might be part of the problem..lol at the very corners of Skywalker I'm seeing 15,000 lumen :woohoo: The center is off the chart as it only goes up to 20,000..needless to say, I could back my lamp off another 2 feet. I'm probably well over 60,000 at the center...which is a bit much for them...I don't want the Peacekeeper going hermie on me.

Fun toy though...lol, my wind speed is 5k/h and RH is 61.2% The ambient temp is 80 under the light and root temps remain at 71.4F :yes: All is well...


Oh and I'm adding about 2 gallons of water a day now to the res. So they are drinking too. Damn fratgirls! :biglaugh:
 
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G

Guest

That meter is the shit!!

The light meter is invaluable. That's what sold me on floros for vegging, every plant has the exact same amout of light righ above it. The 400 MH I
was using before had big hot spot right in the couple square feet below it and weak light around the edges. Okay I guess if your doing soil in pots and your can rotate them easily but not when your plants can't move.

Looks like the new toy will keep you busy for at least a couple days huh?
 
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