TAG - Landing (Resource for True Aero Growing)

[guineapig]

Nitrogen and pH shift.....

Nitrogen and pH shift.....

hey POD racers this one's for you.....

Nitrogen fixation chapter 26

Elemental nitrogen is one of the most important nutrients required for plant growth. It is a key constituent of protein, nucleic acids and other cellular components and its availability in the environment frequently limits the growth and yield of crop plants. Most plants acquire N from the soil solution either as nitrate (NO3-) or ammonium (NH+) ions. In addition, some plants are able to utilize the atmospheric N2 pool through symbiotic associations with species of bacteria, cyanobacteria or actinomycetes that contain the N2 fixing enzyme called NITROGENASE.

(so tell us something we don't already know, guineapig.....okay just remember our favorite new enzyme NITROGENASE)

NITROGENASE is a prokaryotic enzyme which catalyzes the reduction of N2 to NH3. It is made up of 2 component proteins......In well-aerated, non-acidic soils, the activity of nitrifying bacteria ensure that virtually all of the available N is present as NO3- (nitrate). Most plants are very efficient at extracting NO3- from their root environment, and are able to maintain tissue or xylem sap concentrations at levels which are much higher than that of the soil solution. Unfortunately, to date the mechanism and regulation of NO3- uptake by the root are not fully understood.......Whatever the mechanism, the uptake of the nitrate anion (NO3-) must be balanced by either the uptake of a cation (e.g. K+, Mg2+, etc.) or the excretion of another anion (e.g. OH- or HCO3-) to maintain electroneutrality in the plant.

(so if K and MG are not provided with your Nitrates the plant will have no choice but to excrete anions and mess up the pH big-time....)

 

[Guest]

From the TAG nutrient thread

From the TAG nutrient thread

guineapig - you are so much fun with your Nitrogenasies! lol Good to see you are thinking of me. :smile:

I suppose that is the appeal of the DM1 is that those N:K ratios determine the balance for absorption and is why DM1 uses almost entirely NO3.

Ratio between 2 forms of N (NO3:NH4) Best ratio of NO3-N (Nitrate) Vs. NH4-N (Ammoniacal) in any liquid fert is 9:1 as most of the N taken by the plant is in a nitrate form and a very small portion is taken up in an Ammoniacal form.
Secondly...ferts with higher NH4-N can reduce volume of the total plant growth. In general those plants will produce smaller darker green foliage compared to higher NO3-N ferts. Good to know, eh?

This is due to N form effects on photosynthesis and N assimilation as NH4-N must be immediately used in a process requiring carbos (the sugars you are trying to produce) and without sufficient levels of carbos free NH4-N can be toxic to plants. While on the other hand when NO3-N is taken up it is reduced to NH3 and assimilated into amino acid. If sufficient carobs are not available then the NO3-N is stored in the vacuoles (storage house for salts used to build up osmotic pressure) of the cell until carbos are available. Which means NO3-N will never tie up available carbos (sugars) at the expense of the plant's growth.

This information is all courtesy of Dr. Tahir Mahood
Director of R&D for Grotek Manufacturing Inc.

Which explain all the ph issues using organics and non-chelated (heavily chelated) nutrients. The DM1 hits those ratios and seems to stick them pretty well compared to everything else thus far. Which is why I'm raving about it.

In TAG it is so easy for the plants to go off course with previous nutrient regimes I believe because the absorption is so accelerated and there are no buffers to absorption like medium or physical restriction, so precise understanding is necessary for maximum yields.

However, good to know and maybe the addition of the Nitrogenasies can benefit that balance.

 

[HOVAH]

How much are you guys paying for variable speed pumps and misters? and from who or what company ? thanks 1HOVAH

 

[betterboy]

pod will this tank work for a accumulator tank?
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=160680-48324-LET-2&lpage=none
And can ya give me a idea what and how its connected or if ya already covered this where i can find this info?

 

[Guest]

Hovah - they run about $150 now a days. Misters vary.

BB - Yeah, that would work but you can find them cheaper online. The basic design is to have your high pressure pump fill the pressurized tank which is in turn held at bay by a selenoid valve. The timer you use will trigger the valve releasing pressure and running your cycle. When the pressure drops below a set point the pump triggers and repressurizes the tank. The valve handles the cycles, after which you should have a filter (200 mesh is best) and anti-siphon devices to keep the pressure in the line. It works much better for any installation over 4x8 feet of TAGing. You can use a sprinkler pump up to about 2 tables, but the pressue is very low.

That was what I was trying to demonstrate with the video from that sight I posted. They do this great video of bursting fog that is just insane. lol But demonstrates what the supreme or ultimate application would look like. Its like instant cloud-instant clear. Very heavy, uniform dense fog that falls away in a split second.

Like JAT found the Accumulation Tanks help a great deal if you are using a HP Dia pump...which is what you'd want. Something like 100 psi to 150 psi would be idea. If I used a tank I'd run at 80-100 psi applications. You get amazing aerosol.

 

[JustATry]

Man, I was in for a scare this evening. I checked on the girls and look at my rez and it was almost empty, like four inches from the bottom. I was like WTF and start running around franticly looking at the roots!! Luckily there was enough water that the pump was still feeding and my roots didn't dry out. So I start looking around for a leak, nothing. I check my pumps to make sure they didn't die and backup the tables, but they are going and the tables are empty. The ladies drank almost 20 gallons of water in 24 hours. That shit is crazy. I had to order another 10 liters of DM1 tonight as I am about 1/2 way through my 5 liter of each right now. That's just insane though. Even my 120 plants in the tubes didn't drink that much during peak thrist! TAG is the SHIT!

All is going well, girls are pushing a little over an inch a day right now. Sunday will be two weeks and they are already getting packed with pistils. Oh, and that yellowing of the leaves I mentioned a few posts back. I added 200 PPM's of DM1 Veg and the yellowing disappeared overnight. Maybe I was seeing N lockout from the higher K on the Flowering formula. So now the leaves are getting dark green and sexy!

betterboy - I responded to your PM on OG, sorry it took so long. But like I said in the PM, I would go with an accumulator tank that has the internal bladder versus a non-bladder unit. Just make sure the bladder PSI rating does dip below your max output on the pump. If you exceed that rating it will leak and won't hold a charge until you drop below that peak PSI. Mine starts to leak at 115 PSI.

 

[Guest]

Now you understand the luxury of having that DWC element in the original design.
Everyone thinks I'm joking when I explain the sort of results you'll experience with TAG vs. FAG. Most are very skeptical (and rightfullly so) but like myself become hardcore converts after just one TAG. What you experience is nothing less than freakin' Amazing.

I was just going to post that as I think that is what freaks me out the most to think that this can become this in about 4 weeks IS freakin' amazing.



But JAT - You are absolutely correct on the N def. That is why I suggest loading on N during veg and the first 4 weeks of Flower as the clones are not usually capable of getting enough N to complete their growth cycle and it retards development. You'll always know cause the leaves are dull and washed out looking. Like you see when you hit the ideal TAE the leaves get all shiny and dark green and very 'waxy' looking letting you know they are full of water and retaining it well. Most neglect N in Flower altogether and I think this is another reason for failure in aero as well. (Not that I've experienced much 'failure' lol) But I do see that yellowing in my seedlings as they are looking for the extra N as well.

And yeah....I'm adding about 1 gallon every day just to keep my levels up, that is why I suggest a slightly larger res to people, not for the stablity as much as just how much they can suck in flower. You'll have a monsterous pull from now on where they just inhale the water. Those tables of your will be like giant sponges after about 2 more weeks. You'll be adding 40-60 gallons every week per tabel at least, if not more. With the DWC element this helps a little, but otherwise...yes, you must back up your res if you are going to gone for a couple days.

They drink the same as DWC, just without the soaking. The buds will grow at an inch a day as well. It's a good thing.

I just love that this DM1 starts to show pistils so early, you can only build from there...excellent! Its still winning my vote.

EDIT: You know JAT, now that I think about it...that might be why my ph keeps drifting up...the lack of N. I'm using straight Flower (trying to keep with their program) but have found that my ph drifts now to about 6.0 every couple days. I keep adding a shot of high powered P to drop it, but it might be that the plants are sucking all the N out of the solution allowing it to elevate the Ph and not the ppms. I might try Ph'ing with a Nitrogen based down or the Grow formula. I've been socking it to them with mostly 50% of the Max as I'm building their reserves of P/K but I'm thinking it might be a little low on the N as well. However, I don't want to upset those ratios. hmmmm Too early to think straight, maybe after a couple bowls.

The most bizzare thing are those two Cinnamons I have. One is loaded with flowers and not stretching at all...looks like a furry pencil, and the other one is now just starting to stretch hard and only has a few pistils and we are 4 weeks into Flower as of today! So strange. I took 3 more clones off that one as she is growing very strong now, very stout looks like great genetics, but must be much heavier Sativa than the other which is 1/2 way through flower like the rest. I'll take some pics at lights on. Very queer though how the one can resist flowering until she is done stretching after being topped. Interesting development there as well...I'll post in a few.

 

[Guest]

God, Dunkin' Donuts' has the best Decaf Coffee EVER!

God, Dunkin' Donuts' has the best Decaf Coffee EVER!

Well, since it is the end of the 4th week today I'll post my 1/2 way mark, how about that?

First, for you JAT...I'm half a tank low today as well.


Skywalker 1/2 way


That odd Cinnamon and the other one. I topped the second one first in the beginning of flower. The Odd one was topped about 2 weeks in.



Our Sample RhinoxBlue and the HOG mom...which love this DM1.


That furry pencil was actually my Bubbliscious


And finally that Cinnamon Twig I rooted 2 days later...rooting nicely with the bud on top.


I believe the lateral root hairs are stimulated by the production of flowers, so I think that taking clones during stretch makes it easier to pop roots as the rooting hormones are probably at their highest and the laterals might be easier to sprout than taps. Interesting to note.

 

[betterboy]

Thanks guys, appreciate it

 

[Alex-F]

This is some crazy shit

Very interesting guys

 

[Guest]

Speaking of which BB - what is going on with that huge PVC cage you built? I've seen it sitting there...are you running that monster?

 

[betterboy]

got a little more work todo to it, screwed my back up and things been a little slow, I got some temp momma's going now for the fill, gotta get it going to try it and see if it works. Ya know i got a areo clonner that i've built but I cant get the root mass like your getting.

 

[Guest]

You mean that double decker cloner monster? I'd think for sure you'd get mad roots with that. Or are you talking another cloner?

 

[betterboy]

Yea the double decker. dont understand, it has a really nice fog in the tubs, The scarry part is that I just ran 240 clones and after 3 weeks ownly like 50-60 rooted fair.But I did have a problem with my water soft, it dumped a shit load patatsium in my water, wife brought me a glass of water and it was like drinking salt brine, so i bypassed the softner and gonna give it another go.

 

[Guest]

To be honest BB, the TAE you've created might be too perfect.

I'd hazard a guess that your fog is so ideal that the cuttings can survive without rooting from just the ideal humidity and aeration. You might try cycling your cloners so that they have an extended dry time of like 5 minutes inbetween fog application, which might help promote rooting.

I've found, myself, that cuttings taken with too many leaves or in too ideal an environment will just hang out as long as possible before rooting. That is why I think in the first 2 weeks of stretch it forces the roots to shoot out as the plant is already triggered into a growth spurt, but hasn't started flowering yet, the plant needs to feed itself and will promote rooting.

Like with that Cinnamon Twig I cloned with the flower in the end. It rooted on its own in about 3 days verses the vegging tip I cut 3 weeks ago that still hasn't rooted. The vegging tip has ample stores of nutrients and plenty of leaves so it just hangs out for weeks first, and never did root.

I'd take cuttings and limit the leaves down to just one half a large fan and run the cycle at 30 sec./5 min. after 3 days of initial 24/7. That might draw out your roots.

I find in TAE you can keep cuttings alive for weeks without any roots...it is strange. Its almost too idea.

But just my 2¢ for what it is worth.

 

[Guest]

Got my pump purring nicely now A good thing.

Pod, it turns out that I just didn't have enough flow. I added 10 more 60u foggers to open it up some and the pump works killer now. At start up it builds pressure and bobbles just a tad and settles right in at 50 psi.

I'm happy to say that I'll be filling the rig tonight. I'll have some pics up soon.

JAt, looks like your tables are treating you well I'm hoping I will see similar results soon....can't wait!!

 

[betterboy]

Pod
yea, i run a 45 sec on and bout 4.5 off
ya know the funny thing is for the first 2 1/2 weeks all the cuts looked like the day i cut them, really good, then i changed the water in the clonning res. and bang! next day cuts looked sick and started dying off, im sure that it was due to the softner screwing up, atleast i hope this was the problem, dont wanna loose that many cuts again, got 25 blueberry plants im gonna use for temp mothers.
got some good strains comming up, got some strawberry cough and skunk#1 and AK47, took my sexing cuts today.
hope to get the vertical areo done this weekend, backs feeling little better today, need to try this contraption out to see if it works, if it dont i think I'll become a pod racer!
OH yea,
with that preasure tank will i need a preasure switch for the accumulator tank? or just the `12 volt valve? looking thru drip works catalog for the valve,no luck yet

 

[Guest]

GroNut - Good to hear, figured it was something like that. You'll find a balanced system makes little to no noise, its an obvious problem if you can hear your pump working.

I'm excited to see your pics!

BB - Sorry to hear about your back, being a grower ain't much help for that for sure. I think my back has been the sorest since I started fuckin' hydro. But well worth the efforts.

I hear that STr Cough is the bomb...will be interesting to see your outcome. Skunk 1 also a fav rav of mine. And well...we all know about your AK-47

Most those pumps come with an automatic shut off at pressure as well some come with a pressure switch (or you can buy one) that triggers the pump below a set pressure. You only need a selenoid valve for the release, however. You can buy those anywhere as well, they are basic sprinkler selenoid switches. Just check the RV sites as they have those rigs set up for water pressure. You can get an entire system with tank for like $250. Just takes some tinkering. :smile:

 

[Swimmer]

I know that I am new around here (been lurking for quite some time) and would hate to throw a monkey wrench into the works but is this a mistake? I mean if that plant is truly 24 days into flower its got to be the most sickly thing I've ever seen. Even from 0 veg time it ought to be at least 2 feet high by now with buds the size of your thumb tip.

 

[JustATry]

Two weeks today for my ladies. All is going beautiful, as usual. Still seeing a slight N defeciency that I am going to work on tomorrow. But I am going to be overgrown, I am almost sure of it. These fuckers are just growing too much and the s-t-r-e-t-c-h is just starting.




Forth pic is the buds setting in. You can see in the last pic the roots have reached the bottom of the table, 3' down.

PR - are you aware of any N based pH down? I am still having to adjust my pH everyday - 6.0 to 5.6. My down is P based right now and I am thinking the N based down would give me that extra 'N' kick I am looking for.

Swimmer - I am pretty sure that one plant, which is the one you singled out, was the one PR said he was having issues with not showing buds. One post and starting shit already?!?! Look at the other 99% that are pictured instead of singling out the worst plant.