TAG - Landing (Resource for True Aero Growing)

[Guest]

It is a odd one for sure, but JAT is correct, its sister is just moving along, but they aren't putting on a lot of fur yet. This is, my guess, due to the fact that they are seedlings and that they are a heavily Sativa dominant strain.

Agreed, I'd expect more bud development (its definitely odd) but it is growing now very strong...just taking a very long time. It might just be a 10-12 week flowering strain that is all. I've heard of them taking up to 3 months sometimes. So it doesn't freak me out. She isn't sick at all. Just very slow and methodical.

Her matured clones should do much better I'd think. I like the strength she has in her branches...very good vascular system and nodes cut off with the callus nob they grew out of. We'll just have to keep an eye on her. My Oasis was the same way, totally out grown by every strain on the table, until she was ready...they was the tallest and meanest of all of them.

But as the tallest plant on the table that Cinnamon isn't sick by any means. I'm actually considering topping her again as the 'Peace Sign' is getting huge and she still has more branches on these two fingers.



And she is getting buds...just not rapidly. Her sister isn't packing that much more and is a lot smaller. I think it is just the difference between topping early and then later. The queer one had to stop for a week or two to deal with being topped in the middle of stretch and I'm not running a solid 12/12 yet. I was bring them down at around 13-14 hours of daylight so they might just be longer sats to flower.



JAT - I told you. Its about to get seriously mad for you. I'm gigglin' myself silly. But those tables make me jealous I don't have two identical ones in my guest-room. :smile:

But speaking of the ph..I have that same issue. Every couple days or daily, depending, the ph drifts up to 6.0. Maybe that is the point it should be at and we are just fighting it, as I'm only seeing K def if any...higher ph wont effect that adversely.

Not only are these two a little more mature, but they are more Indie dominant as well. I think the Cinnamons are meant to be trees. The Peacekeeper looks like she could easily grow 5-7 feet given the chance.

 

[Guest]

Suffice it to say:



She looks weird, but she is healthy...and tall, and her roots are exemplary. So no worries there.

All the roots are starting to pom pom Always a good thing.

 

[Swimmer]

Thanks for the explanation, I'm not starting shit, just unfamiliar with that strain.
I have a few questions regarding root growth. You guys seem to be growing in very deep containers.
1. Do all the roots make it to the bottom or do they hang suspended like that?

2. What are your root zone temps and how do you control them since you can't do it with the sprayers (fine mist, lots of off time).

 

[whereisbrianV.]

I'm back DOA. Vancouver is a special place and I gained much from my trip. Anyone who loves plants should visit there; it is like Mecca for plant life lovers. Of course I love the relaxed atmosphere also but in the forest is truly my home. I never leave a place of such beauty empty handed, so you know I brought back some genetics. I had the opportunity to be humbled by a grow that I visited and fell in love with the strain Purple Star. I felt like I was on a mission to spread the Aero but the growers there move around allot so it is really not practical for them to go through all that set up when they just leave it all after they cut. This explains why allot of the weed you see up there is not that good looking (don't know how it smokes cause I scored some fine nugs from the Weed Shop). While there I vaporized Durban Poison, Purple Star, Sweet Tooth, and Shiskaberry. All very fresh and potent, some of the best nugs I have seen (even better than my own.) The seeds should be popping shortly and the TT-TAVG will finally be put into action. Nice to be back and nice growing Pod and Jat you give me inspiration to grace these halls with the Canna.

 

[Guest]

bV. Hurray! Glad to see you back finally...we did miss you brother. :smile:

All I've ever heard about Vancouver is how wonderful it is. Looks very grey and rainy (which is good for the plants I suppose). Reminds me of Seattle.

Being a Florida cracker I don't know how I'd fair with those grey skys. lol

But anyhow, I'm very happy you are back and we are all eagerly awaiting your first run in the Towers.

Swimmer - All that info can be found in the first post of this thread.

 

[Swimmer]

Actually, I did read the first post and neither of my questions were answered.

 

[guineapig]

Swimmer i understand your concerns.....i mean there are only 587 posts in this thread and for someone new it must be confusing......POD-people around here are a bit sensitive because the Roman growers around here like to crucify them for their heretical approach to growing Cannabis.....but they remain true to the faith!

by the way i am stealing some pictures of roots for a discussion on another site but i will give credit where credit is due......hope thats ok.....-kind regards, gp

 

[Guest]

Not being snobby

Not being snobby

Swimmer - Usually, yes, the roots make it all the way down to the floor. The same as you'd see 15' tap roots running down an aerotub to the res, except they pretty much just stop at the floor as if the TAE is ideal they don't need much in the way of tap roots.

I suppose you missed this part in the first post:

"Compendium for TAG (True Aero Growing)

The principles of aeroponics differ considerably from other methods of plant propagation. Several factors influence the rapid absorption and accelerated grow that can be expected when rig designs are brought closer to the True Aero Environment. TAE

These factors establish a the optimal TAE.

This environment consists of these requirements:

Ideal rooting environments should be unrestricted with enough volume to allow every square cm of root zone to become completely coated with a micro-fine mist of 50µ average population nutrient solution every 3 to 4 minutes in under 60 seconds (preferably 20-30 second misting cycles).

Root Zone Temperatures are found to be ideally suited at approximately 68-72F for maximum efficiency, though younger plants grow faster at higher temperatures and older ones at lower—these extremes are not conducive to the microculture necessary to support the root colonies and risk of possible bad bacterial infections. The use of HG or any AM inoculant is advised and recommended.
Ideal root temperature has been established at 68F as being TAT. (Target Aero Temperature)
Root zone temperatures should see very little temperature fluctuation and absolutely no light penetration if possible. Anything above 75F should be considered dangerous to the health and well being of your plants and HydroGuard or other benefical is highly recommended. Beneficials are recommended in general as the speed and growth in a TAE is exceptional and the rooting environment needs as much support as possible to keep up with increasing growth demands."


and this..

"Optimal industry standards for TAGing are 20-30 seconds of delivery to 180-240 seconds off depending on environment. Most rely on the 30/3 cycle of 30 seconds on 3 minutes off. This appears to be the maximum effective rate lessening in effectiveness as intervals become longer.

15-minute timers are not to be used in TAG as they overly saturate and dry too long for an effective TAE.

Ideal environments for TAG roots are light proof and completely opaque. Heat and light issues at root zones are the number 1 complication with aeroponic rigs designed without adequate space or drainage."

Unless I'm missing something that should pretty much cover it, no? :smile:

I'm not sure if you know this Swimmer, but you copied my Cinnamon Pic into your gallery, might want to drop that out.

You'll have to excuse me as I'm a bit skittish around anyone showing up in this thread with only 3 posts and having only joined yesterday to apparently post here. There is usually a 50/50 chance its an old asshole under a new name just here to start shit again. Rarely do we see growers interested in aero that have no prior posts of or on anything. Its sort of an advanced method for someone just dropping by. I'm sure you understand.

"Never explain--your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe you anyway."
Elbert Hubbard
US author (1856 - 1915)

 

[JustATry]

brianv - nice to see you back! I am heading up to Vancouver for business in a couple weeks. I will have to pick up some nugs while I am up there too. Thanks for the tip!

Swimmer - didn't mean to jump the gun so to say. Just don't need anymore 'nay-sayer' in here starting shit. You are more than welcome to 'TAG' along.

Anyone know anything on light rails? I am thinking up up'ing my grow to 4 tables after this grow, but I can't spare anymore power. I was thinking I could run 1 1KW per table and throw each light on a light rail. That setup would keep me at the 4KW window I am running at now.

But, I don't know if yield would be reduced because the light isn't stationary, or if this would even matter. Anyone have an opinion on this?

 

[Swimmer]

Thanx for the info. I've been growing with aero for several years but probably not what you would call true aero. I think that their are many people who take up aero as their first system, so you shouldn't think it's strange. I'll delete that picture as soon as I figure out how.

Thanx again and I'm looking forward to see the results. Great thread.

 

[Guest]

No worries M8.

JAT - It would only increase your yield and uniform your buds so they are all perfectly lit. I'm a very pro light rail grower, I'm going to get one for my own Vader/Skywalker set. You can have your lights even lower and more intense and the plants get a much broader exposure, like in nature, as the light angle shifts constantly. Its a good thing.

Speaking of which, I think that is what might be happeing to that queerass Cinnamon (Peacekeeper I'm calling her now). I switched from the Full Spec. MH to the Full Spec. HPS, but as you can see for yourself there is no equality in the two. The MH is far superior in shortening stretch and nodal elongation whereas the HPS is allowing a lot more stretch but promoting a thickening of the branches of the pistils. I'm sure that massive stretch is in direct response to the topping moving the growth hormones to the new shoots and the switch to HPS.

This is my latest treat to myself, I decided it was time to go pro.



Features:

Anemometer, humidity meter, light meter and a Type K digital thermometer in one unit.
Light: 0 to 20,000 Lux / 0 to 2,000 Ft-cd, auto ranging
Anemometer: 80 to 5900 fpm
Velocity Units: m/s, km/h, mph, knots, ft/min
Type K Thermometer: -100 to 1300?C
User selectable ?C/?F, Lux/Foot-candles
Humidity: 10 to 95%RH ï Data Hold, Record (Max/Min)

They'll be no stopping me this time! I will know exactly what the Light, Wind and humidity and temps are at every location in my canopy now. Ha! Take that and party!

 

[Guest]

TAG Stuff

Speaking of roots...

The root zone of a plant is buzzing with life-essential processes of incredible complexity. This zone of intensive activity is called the rhizosphere. The root itself makes up part of the rhizosphere (the endorhizosphere), while the root hairs, mucigel, and root cells that have sloughed off constitute the ectorhizosphere.

The plant actually grows its own garden of microbes, along the root surfaces. To do this, the light energy captured from photosynthesis in the leaves is channeled down the stem through the phloem vessels and out through epidermal cells to the external root surface. Incredibly, up to 80% of the total plant energy--but usually 12 to 40%--is exuded as mucigel into the ectorhizosphere as carbohydrates, amino acids, and other energy-rich compounds. As the roots grow, the roots slough off dead cells which form a slimy covering and help the roots to slide easily as they grow. This slime is a food source for many millions of beneficial microbes. This food doesn't stay around long. Billions of bacteria, fungi, algae, actinomycetes, protozoa, and other microbes feed upon this exudate.
Some of the main Beneficials at the Root Zone

Bacillus
Several varieties of Bacillus (i.e Bacillus megaterium) have been found to play a role in the conversion of unavailable forms of phosphates into plant available forms. In natural settings they can provide near 10% of the available phosphorous in the soil solution. With increased levels of plant available phosphorous, Bacillus strains become less effective. However, if the Bacillus can sustain as a back up it may continue to provide hungry blooms with phosphorous if it should become otherwise unavailable or “locked out”. This bacterium is of special interest to organic farmers who incorporate rock phosphate into the growing medium or if introduced through fertilizer teas, preparations, etc. Rock phosphate tends to be mostly unavailable, breaking down into plant available forms over time.

Certain forms of Bacillus are known to inhibit pythium and other pathogens. One of these is bacillus subtilis and is found in Hydroguard .

Mychorhizal Fung
Mycorrhizal fungi are especially effective in providing nutrients to plant roots. These are certain types of fungi that actually colonize the outer cells of plant roots, but also extend long fungal threads, or hyphae, far out into the rhizosphere, forming a critical link between the plant roots and the soil. Mycorrhizae produce enzymes that decompose organic matter, solubilize phosphorus and other nutrients from inorganic rock, and convert nitrogen into plant available forms. They also greatly expand the soil area from which the plant can absorb water. In return for this activity, mycorrhizae obtain valuable carbon and other nutrients from the plant roots. This is a win-win mutualism between both partners, with the plant providing food for the fungus and the fungus providing both nutrients and water to the plant. The importance of mycorrhizae in plant productivity and health has often been overlooked.It has been well documented that mycorrhizal plants are often more competitive and better able to tolerate environmental stress.Mycorrhizal technology has likewise made possible the production of inoculants to significantly improve the survival, growth and establishment of trees and crops.

Nitrosomonas Bacteria
Species of aerobic bacteria which converts ammonia to nitrite. One of the critical bacteria in nitrogen cycle. Optimum pH range between 6.0 and 9.0, temperature 10oC - 34oC. Will acclimate to changes in water quality, but activity is reduced during acclimation which can lead to a build up of ammonia.
Nitrosomonas eat ammonia, they absolutely LOVE it. They Convert plant available ammonium (NH4) to unavailable nitrite (NO2).

Nitrobacteria
These bacteria convert the nitrite (NO2) resulting from the nitrification above into nitrate (NO3-), an important form of Nitrogen that all plants need.

Streptomyces
Bacteria that secrete a variety of compounds including antibiotics that prevent and control root zone pathogens. A closely related species of Streptomyces produces the antibiotic that we use, streptomycin. Many studies demonstrate the bacteria’s effectiveness at controlling root diseases, and select foliar diseases. An interesting consideration noted in one study is that they will also reduce levels of some nitrogen fixing bacteria in the soil.

Trichoderma
Some species of fungi that parasitize other fungi, such as Trichoderma, have been observed physically attacking and destroying pathogenic fungi. Strains of Trichoderma are found naturally occurring in many soils can play a role in the prevention and control of root pathogens, ultimately providing a healthier soil environment which can lead to higher yields. Some research suggests that the proteins in Trichoderma can degrade chitin, which is a structural component found in pathogenic fungi such as powdery mildew and in insects.

Some innovative propagation materials are inoculated with strains of Trichoderma.Many forms of coco coir contain it naturally. CANNA's Coco Growing Media is innoculated with it. If a healthy root environment is maintained, the bacteria will continue to colonize the roots and multiply in the growing media. The trichoderma help to form a protective layer around the root system, helping to fend off invading pathogens, etc.

In hydroponics we can promote a plant's rhizosphere capability by insuring it has the proper minerals, as well as a well aerated root zone to allow for good air and water movement . Also suggest using an organic amendment like Liquid Karma as well as a general enzymatic product like Hygrozyme or SensiZym from Advanced Nutrients that will encourage the proliferation of healthy rhizosphere microbes.

Most root pathogens seem to be opportunistic -that is, they take advantage of weak and/or damaged roots. Thus the best defense is to keep roots healthy in the first place.

It has been found by numerous studies that plant roots colonized by a mixture of different bacterial and fungal species, are far more resistant to pathogenic attack. Mycorrhizal fungi form an impenetrable physical barrier on the surface of plant roots, varying in thickness, density and fungal species, according to the plant species, plant health and soil conditions. Ideally the beneficial microbes out-compete pathogenic species and form a protective layer on the surface of living plant roots. In soil it is usually only when the beneficial species of bacteria and fungi are killed by continuous soil disturbance and toxic chemicals that pathogenic species have an advantage.

There are a slew of new beneficial microbial products on the market, and they have a variety of effects ranging from breaking down nitrogen into useable forms to cleaning the roots to warding off negative microbiological pathogens. These good microbes also activate, enrich and stimulate the roots - they help to create beautiful fuzzy white root growth like you have never seen before.

Earth Ambrosia / Earth Nectar:a two-part mycorrhizal fungi innoculant - in liquid form

Down to earth mycorrhizal root innoculant: in powdered form for soil or coco

Piranha Piranha colonizes the root zone with 26 beneficial fungi (in powder form for hydro)

Tarrantula Bacterial blend of 57 microorganisms, with 1.4 billion Colony Forming Units per gram

Voodoo juice Liquid solution consisting of five strains of bacterial microbes, one is a nitrogen fixer

Botanicare Hydroguard Water treatment and pathogen supressor made of four benefical bacteria: Bacillus subtilis, Paenibacillus polymxa, Bacillus circulans, and Bacillus amyloliquefaciens.

Thought the DieHard looks more complete, these are just a few of the liquid or hydro versions available currently. Just some interesting FYI.

 

[Guest]

Hey JAT - Another thing of interest I just recently discovered. Looking at my leaves I've determined that I'm no longer experiencing any K or Ca def, however I am seeing signs of a slight Mg def. After adding some soluable Mg the Ph dropped right to 5.6...isn't that interesting? I then did some reading and uncovered that there is a change that occurs about day 35 of a 70 day life cycle plant. (They also found that there was no difference between growing at a ph of 4 and 5.8 but still recomend 5.8 as the target for aero).

Another thing was this...You want to be using Nitric Acid as your ph down (that was the N down I spoke of earlier).

When the pH increases to 5.8, the controller opens a solenoid that allows nitric acid (HNO3) to flow into the bulk solution. When nitrate nitrogen is used the solution pH increases as the nitrate is absorbed so only one solenoid is necessary. The acid inlet should be in close proximity to the tip of the pH electrode so that frequent small additions of acid occur and the bulk solution pH is stable.

NITROGEN: Plant requirements for nitrogen are sometimes larger than all of the other elements combined. It can thus be difficult to supply nitrogen in the refill solution without adding excess amounts of other cations. The best solution is to use nitric acid (HNO3) for pH control. This can supply 50% of the nitrogen needs of the crop without adding excess cations. If extra nitrogen is required, ammonium nitrate can be added to the pH control solution. However, because ammonium decreases the uptake of other cations (K, Ca, Mg, and micronutrients) I do not recommend its use in hydroponic solutions unless extra nitrogen is required by the crop for maximum yields.

PHOSPHOROUS and POTASSIUM are rapidly drawn down to µM levels is solution. These low levels do not mean that the plant is starving for these elements, it means that the plant is healthy and actively absorbed these elements from solution.

CALCIUM requirements are almost 3 times higher for dicots than for monocots (grasses). Calcium is nontoxic, even at high tissue concentrations, but it accumulates in solution if too much is added to the refill solution.

MAGNESIUM is highly mobile and can accumulate to toxic levels in upper leaves if the solution concentration is too high.

 

[Guest]

Hey w'sup...

Jat, on the light rail I think how it's set up and how far it has to move will determine if it will be a benefit. How far do you think it will have to move?

I'm using one and have seen mixed results. I used to have it set up to move about 1' off center in either direction and the plants on the ends just didnt get enough light. They were always small compared to the center plants as the centers got twice as much light with the light passing over twice for each single time the ends got light and the farther the light moves across the canopy the longer the ends have to wait for light. I've changed it so the light only wiggles about 4" from center just to keep the light's hot spot moving a bit and this works well. If it's possible for you, I would consider 600 watters and add more lights. I think you would get more consistent light coverage to the plants this way and 600 should be fine for plants 4' or less I think.. my

Pod, you know if Floraliscious has clay in it like the LK? I poked around but could not find specifics. I've tried LK twice and didn't like what it did in terms of staining the roots making it hard to tell if rot was present and it just made a general mess. The Floraliscus at half strength has not been a problem so far but not sure if it will clog up the fine foggers. Sweet meter! It's pretty interesting to be able see the actual light footprint and how fast it fades, very helpful.


I'm up and runnin!! Started off with 25 gals ro, hydro guard @ 10ml per gal, cal mag to 250 ppm, pbp grow to 490 ppm, set ph at 5.6 but already drifted up to 6 overnight.



First clone going in...


I put together a rack of t5's for vegging. I'm kinda scetch on burning 1200 watts for 18/6.

 

[JustATry]

PR - thanks for the info on the Nitric Acid. I had to have the local store bring some in for me, they only carry phosphoric based down, and it should be at the store this morning. I will keep you posted on that as well.

Interesting find on the Mg, can you take some close up pics of what you are seeing? My leaves are pretty much flawless right now with the exception of a couple millimeters of tip burn. A little too light green for my liking, but hopefully this N down will help.

Some info I have found on the light movers. Most say you can increase coverage by 20-30% using a light mover. So say a 1000W @ 50SQ/FT is 4.5' x 4.5. Now you would use 1300W @ 50SQ/FT is 5.1' x 5.1'. But I know the W per sq/ft is not an ideal measurement now, so I will have to do some more research on this.

My thoughts were to have each 1000W travel over a 4' x 8' table. Now obviously it would need to travel to the edge of the table, so I think a centered 6' light rail over the table would work. GroNut - these new Light Mover 3.5 devices actually pause for 60 seconds at the end of the track to compensate for the double exposure the center sees. Have you tried, or heard, of these at all?

Your setup is looking tits man!! Way to go. So now you can just move those T5's aside and fire away with the HPS, very nice! Don't sweat burning the wattage you are for veg. I usually burn all 4K's during veg. I try to time it right so the meter man, who comes in the early afternoon, doesn't see my meter spinning like a top. Been good so far.

 

[Guest]

Thanks man,

I may have seen my center plants get so much more light because I wasn't moving the light too far off center. The center probably still got some light even when the light was at either end and just the ends went with no light for a bit.

My mover has an adjustable pause but I thought if I had it stop for 60 sec. or whatever that's just more time that the other end goes w/o light. I dunno, I guess I've convinced myself somehow that the plants need constant light over them. More light! more light! more light!....lol.

 

[Guest]

The light helps obviously, but you will see better development with multiple angles coming in, its just logical. You'd have better penetration as the light angle shifts through the canopy.

The trick is that pause GN, the delay allows the plants on the ends added light exposure to compensate for the travel time. If you ran it with a 30 second delay at the ends you might find you'll see a much more uniform canopy development.

The idea is to have the ends experience as much light duration as the center does, so think that the center sees 2 times as much as the ends do, so just cut your travel time in half and use that as the pause at the ends to compensate. The idea behind the light movers is that you can lower you lights even closer to the canopy (as the intense heat isn't constant) and this allows stronger light at closer levels and more uniform coverage.

You should be able to run your light just above the tops, but if you are using a 1K I'd definitely use a meter as you don't need anything over 40,000 lumen 60 tops.

I'm planning on using one over a 12 foot area with two 1K lamps, one HPS and the MH full spec. This should flood the area with a shitload of lumen in all the spectrum I need.

JAT - I'm looking forward to what you experience as I've not located any Nitric locally yet. The Mg has kept the Ph at 5.8 all day.

I'm pretty sure that is it, as we all hear about Mg defs in late flower. My new leaves look great as well, so it is hard to say. This might just be residual effect from the ppm spike earlier when I went up to like 1800 ppms. I'm not back down to around 1300 and holding. Everyone looks dark green and happy, but the lower leaves are showing signs of Mg def...but not sure if it is real of just residual...that is all..

Here is a pic.



Honestly it looks more like Ozone damage...which might be as I have my O3 generator in my air handler running sometimes for hours and the line goes right to the grow first. It might just be O3 damage. The leaves all look healthy aside from those brownish spots....hmmm.

 

[Guest]

UPDATE:

Truth is I am only finding it on the older leaves? hmm



The Cinnamon is turning into a tree, I wonder if the MH would have stopped that?


The roots look fantastic! XLs rock! Some Rhinoxblue shots and the HOG mom:


The interesting thing is my temps haven't gone above 72F yet. This is now with no hood and only the blower running a circular circuit through the room. No evapPod either. lol Go figure. Circle orbits are the most efficient!

I just wish I had a table full of clones to be playing with..it seems like it is taking forever for these new clones to veg up so I can take cuttings....errr.

GN - The build looks excellent btw. Very nice work. Everyone really...only one I'm waiting on now is bV.

But I know he's getting the towers full. Let's just hope they have a better fate than the other twin towers. The victory will be for the survivors! I can't wait to see those 'Twins' bustin out of their little dinky closet. You'll all get to see what I've been raving about how if you ignore them for a few days they'll literally get out of the pods and come looking for you for food. You better lock your doors at night...

 

[whereisbrianV.]

I am afraid of my closet busting at the seams with growth, but first thing is to find my mothers and pimp those bitches. This purple star makes big thick ass plants with some wicked color, I really can't wait to see them sitting sideways (does anyone else find that song really annoying.) I have a different problem but it is with light, I think I have over-done the lights. It is blinding to have all 3 (HPS,MH,MV) lights going at once, I am afraid of burning my clones. Cutting the light timing back will give them time to adjust but will slow my growth, but it is better than killing all the children of the Canna. Time will tell if I live up to the path laid before me, but with so much to go wrong the odds are against me. Good thing I have the resources of the DOA. Much love and thanks to all, peace.

 

[Guest]

I'd just start with the one MH for the beginning and build up to it.

I use my floros to veg up to an adequate size and strength usually before throwing the 1Ks on their asses. It does kick them in the ass a bit, no doubt.

But speaking of leaves and details (nice segway eh?) I thought it might be better to give some perspective on the size of these girls. Here is the Cinnamon and RhinoxBlue with the standard DM1 container.



Some details of the bud-clusters at 4 weeks.



And cause you can never get enough sickass root porn.

This always makes me think of Chinese food and I just want to chew on those tender roots. Must have been a herbivore in my prior incarnation. Nice laterals, eh? :smile: