TAG - Landing (Resource for True Aero Growing)

[Guest]

Good day fellas, looks like things are chuggin right along for you. What's up w/those Cinnamins taking so long??

I fired up the smoke machine today. Almost went perfect.... It looks like I don't have enough flow for the pump and it's almost shutting down. Kinda sounds like a car trying to start when the battery is going deal. It starts okay for 3 seconds then bogs down...goes wump...wump.......wump..........wump................wump and slower (nice sound effects eh? hehe) It almost stops altogether.

This is with 38 foggers @ 1.6 gph each which fits into the pumps operating range according to their specs. It's the aquatec 5500 variable speed 50psi. I will just add some higher flow misters in areas so it'll run smoother and let it flow.






These foggers are rated at 1.6 gph with a 70u dropplet size. Pretty cool feature is the mini screen that slips in before threading in the head.

I have these 2 cycle timers and it's kinda ironic how the cyclestat allows "on" cycles down to 5 sec or so but the shortest interval or "off" time is 5 mins whereas the CAP timer allows for 3 min. off times but only allows a minimum of 30 sec. on time.... I may be cool with the cap running 30sec/3min but I will have no room to adjust for a shorter "on" time if I need. If I knew anything about electronics I would attempt to switch some part. I will skip that as I don't need any problems. What timer are you guys using?

 

[JustATry]

GroNut - looking good as usual. Any idea on the volume rating for your pump? You may need an accumulator tank if the pump can't keep up.

I had the same problem with my Cyclestat timer. I could get the 'on' intercal down to 5 seconds, but the 'off' interval would cycle @ 7 minutes when it was set at 5. So, I have another timer that kicks on every three minutes to drain my collection bucket. I just hooked the Cyclestat into this timer and it's working golden now.

Try piggybacking the timers together. Plug the Cyclestat into the ART. Use the Cyclestat for your 'on' time, and the ART for the 'off' time. The ART only needs to be on long enough for your Cyclestat to run a cycle, then it can cycle to the next time. One power is cut to the Cyclestat, regardless of timing on the 'off' pattern, it will reset and kick the on again. This is what I am doing.

 

[Guest]

Good tip JAT, very smart

On the pump, being a variable speed, it's supposed to keep a constant 50psi from a pretty low flow range. I'll look that up. I think the prob is that there is not enough outlet and the pump slows way down, too slow.

according the operating specs. the pump should maintain 50psi from .25gpm up to 2.75gpm.

My current fogger set up allows for 1.0 gpm. I am in the lower end of the range but it should work fine.

can't get the link on the correct page for specs but it's there
http://www.aquatec.com/new/products.html

 

[Guest]

I'm using the ART-2 you have on the right there and that is my recommendation. The pumps are actually designed to work at a minimal on time of 30 sec. and minimal off time of 3 minutes. If you look at the specs on the variables you'll see they match the Aero Specs (odd, huh...lol).

Anyhow, that 'whamp whamp whussshhh' you hear is called a 'bounce' in the line GroNut, it is caused by the pressure regulating before the pump can maintain the 50 psi. There are two things that slow or stop that.

1. Is a bounce line like you see here on my rig.


Which you can buy for like $10 and it takes the 'bounce' out..its actually called a 'bounce dampener'.

http://www.rvwaterfilterstore.com/Pumps.htm

2. Is to use a backflow prevention, which just keeps the pressure in the line and doesn't have to feed first.

The reason is the pump works immediately and almost immediately builds the pressure to 50 psi and slows to stopping, there is then a lag as the foggers release the pressure. This 'bounces' back and forth until a constant stream is created..usually in about 3 seconds.

(bonus trick)
The bounce line and having the intake under the water level both help this considerably as the water is already forcing its way up the line when the pump triggers rather than having to pull it to the pump first.

My pump goes, "Whirrss,issshshhhhhhhhhhhhh" and you have to be within 10 feet or you can't hear it running. I keep having to check it as I keep thinking it isn't running. If you have it incorrectly balanced it sounds like someone is mounting tires in your growroom with a pneumatic wrench. Not the sound you want. They are virtually silent if you can get the input pressure up enough and the line tight and rigid enough without bounce.

JAT - I don't know how the DM1 can recommend the levels they have if they can't match them..that is very odd, however the plants are not experiencing any issues so far...so fuck'em let's burn baby....vroom vrroooooom.

BTW - You can trust me on this one, you don't need to be any shorter than 30 sec. on/3 minutes off. That is as close as you'll ever need to be. Don't fuss the 20 second deal...it wont hinder your grow..at all.

 

[Guest]

I have the pulsation dampener line...

It's the one from the pump out to the filter inlet. I also have my pumps inlet very near flooded per your tip earlier.

It sounds like the pump builds to pressure, then slows waaay down and it will maintain 50psi but sounds like it's barely turning (or whatever it does). That part is fine..... The problem is when the fogger manifold is full and the pump cycles back on after the "off" time it can't get it's wheels turning and then makes the whumping pulsation sounds and bounces between 20 and 50 psi.

If I take the drain off the filter and let the mannyfold drain out then the pump can start again.. has room to spin up. It will run for that first cycle but again when the system is full of water it seems the pump can't spin up to maintain a constant flow. Does that make any sense?? I don't know if my explanation is any good.

 

[JustATry]

PR - I don't know what they are doing either. We are almost double their recommended regime. Maybe they were stoned when they wrote that up, kinda like you with the 600 PPM.

GroNut - I have the same problems when I change my filters. The return lines empty and the pump will not recharge the system until the solenoid valve opens, or I manually open the lines. Something to do with the backpressure but I don't know what exactly.

 

[Guest]

You may have hit it with the leak idea.. I do have a corner of the manifold that may have a very small leak. Since it's inside the box I didn't check really close. I'll check into that and I'll also try and run it with the chiller pump off.

I have to poke around some more and see. I would be worried in a way if it ran perfect on the fist try... that never happens

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it... trust ya on the timer too :smile:

 

[Guest]

Gro - don't mention it buddy. :wink:

JAT - the nice thing is I believe the DM1 is all Pharmasutical grade chems verse just Food grade...so they are the highest quality and should be available without a problem to the plants. However it strikes me as really odd I can't find a single post about anyone discussing the high ppms or using DM1 for hydro...or an email for the Dutch Master's AU home to ask them about it. Strange that in the entire world no one else has an issue like this. REeeealllyy....

 

[Guest]

Hey, No fair you assholes..lol I just did my res change and Now I have that vibrating shutter thing Thanks for sharing your shitty karma guys..

No I have to solve this problem...er. Did you guys find a solution yet? I think it is air in the filter or line...but I can't get it out. Annoying!

You guys...errrrr...

NO REST FOR THE WICKED, I tell you...NO REST!!! lol

 

[Guest]

WTF??? I just read the pm and was thinking what the hell is a shutterbug ..

Mine doesn't vibrate.. more of a pulsation. 20psi - 50psi- 20psi- 50psi about every second or two.

Yours the same?

 

[Guest]

No, mine was doing this 'jejjejejeejejejjeejejejee' shimming thing...but I cleaned the filter and stood the pump on its head and this seems to have quieted the beast. It was just running so smoothly before I drained my system.

By the way, this is why I've stop using Liquid Karma in my TAG pod. Its just too unmanageable. Dried out it smells like dried piss and looks just like Fish Fert residue. I'm sure its the base of the Humic Acids they use.



There is no way that shit is going through a 50µ fogger nozzle...forget it.


Just saw your pics of your foggers running...sweet. You are going to have one rockin' ass TAG Closet my friend. That is going to net you some sweet ass buds for sure...ew..I can't wait...they will be just towers of sticky gooey madness.

And I love that screen insert...now that is thinking for you. Easier than trying to fish shit out of the nozzle body. lol

 

[Guest]

We need this in a clear liquid

We need this in a clear liquid

For all those that want to know what is in LK:

Biochemical Composition

Liquid KarmaTM contains seven (7) major groups of nutrients based on their specific effects on plant growth and development:

A. Fermented Compost Solution - prepared by exhaustive bacterial and enzymatic fermentation of fish meal, composted seabird guano, spirulina, sea kelp, and soybean meal. In order to enhance the fermentation process and obtain a product which contains the highest possible biological activity, the fermentation is carried out in different stages in the presence of humic acid, citric acid, raw sugar cane, complex carbohydrates, glucose fructose and over 72 trace elements. Fermented Compost Solution prepared in this manner is used by an increasing number of organic gardeners to obtain luxuriant vegetative growth, huge flowers and flavorful fruits and vegetables.

B. Amino Acids - Liquid KarmaTM contains essential amino acids which are derived from casein hydrolysate and soybean protein hydrolysate. Amino acids are important plant nutrients because they serve as building blocks for structural proteins and enzymes. In addition, amino acids are also involved in the activation of transfer ribonucleic acids (t-RNAs) and DNA synthesis. The following amino acids are present in Liquid KarmaTM: glycine, alanine, valine, leucine, isoleucine, serine, threonine, aspartic acid, glutamic acid, asparagine, glutamine, lysine, arginine, histidine, cysteine, cystine, methionine, proline, phenylalanine, tyrosine, and tryptophan.

C. Vitamins - All of the vitamins used in this formulation are extremely beneficial for plant growth because they function as co-factors for enzymes involved in carbohydrate metabolism and the biosynthesis of macromolecules. Liquid KarmaTM contains significant amounts of riboflavin, thiamine, pyridoxine, and all of the other B-complex vitamins obtained from fermented yeast extracts.

D. Plant Extracts - Liquid KarmaTM also contains aqueous and ethanolic extracts of etiolated wheat seedlings and Zea mays. These extracts contain high levels of the plant hormones known as auxins and cytokinins. For successful plant micropropagation (tissue culture), the crucial requirements for an auxin and cytokinin are well documented in botanical literature.

E. Humic Acid - In addition to the ingredients indicated above, Liquid KarmaTM contains optimal levels of humic acid and fulvic acid derived from leonardite. These substances are known to stimulate the growth of roots, shoots and flowers, by maintaining the proper osmotic concentration in cells.
NOTE: Leonardite A soft brown coal-like deposit usually found in conjunction with deposit of lignite. Often defined as a naturally occuring oxidized lignite. Clay rich in humic and fulvic acids; these clays come from a chemical and biological degradation of animal and plant residues as well as synthetic activities of microorganisms.

This would explain the mess we see JAT, its Clay!

F. Seaweed Extract - Liquid KarmaTM also contains a high proportion of seaweed extract obtained from North Atlantic Kelp (Ascophyllum nodosum). Kelp extract contains metabolically active carbohydrates, complex carbohydrates, minerals such as cobalt, strontium and iodine, and growth substances that are known to be beneficial for plant growth.

G. Carbohydrates - Carbohydrates are included in Liquid KarmaTM because they are the direct or indirect precursors of virtually every metabolite. Their precense provides the added burst of energy required to assimilate and metabolize all of the other wonderful ingredients present in Liquid KarmaTM.

The seven nutrient groups used in the formation of Liquid KarmaTM act synergistically to produce optimal plant growth.

Benefits of Using Liquid KarmaT

Extensive research and field trials indicate that Liquid KarmaTM produces beneficial results during every phase of plant growth. Starting with seed germination and following through to vegetative growth, budding and flowering, the continued use of Liquid KarmaTM ensures optimal plant growth at every stage. In addition, because of the presence of high concentrations of B-complex vitamins and plant hormones in Liquid KarmaTM, the product has been shown to be very effective in protecting plants from transplant shock, and in promoting the rooting of cuttings.

Application Rate

Seed germination 5 ml/gallon Transplanting 15 ml/gallon
Vegetative growth 10-15 ml/gallon Rooting 15-20 ml/gallon
Flowering 15-20 ml/gallon
Ingredients
Liquid KarmaTM contains the following amino acids; glycine, alanine, valine, leucine, isoleucine, sereine, threonine,apartic acid, glutamic acid, aspargine, glutamine, lysine, arginine, histidine, cysteine, cystine, methionine, proline, phenylalanine, tyrosine, and tryptophan. Vitamins; riboflavin, thiamine, pyridoxine, ascorbic acid, and a full array of other water soluble vitamins. Carbohydrates; sucrose, fructose, cellulose. Phytohormones; Indole-3-acetic acid, trans-6-(4-hydroxy-3-methybut-2-enyl) amino purine. hydrolysate, soy protein hydrolysate, fermented yeast extract, aqueous extracts of etiolated wheat coleoptiles, and Zea mays, aloe vera extract, yucca extract, humic acid, fulvic acid, and kelp seaweed extract. Invitro tissue culture with six-week old tobacco plants.

 

[AeRoGaNiC]

I've been under the radar cuz I have no grow, no meds, and no high speed internet. I've almost got my TAG thing together but its been put on backburner to my car payments. The job I have is over in 2 days with no new one.. so I've been freaking out here. Not to mention I had to move and harvest WAY early, like 2 weeks after stretch. Now I cant grow in this house.

I'm just blah'ed the F out right now. The only two useful words I can interject here are casparian strip. This whole not having meds and having a weeks worth of resin hits is just bogus.

I've been completely grow/meds fuct. Thats why I havent been here, but I'm still browsing. Most of the time I just sleep now cuz I'm exhuasted and suffering.

Everyones stuff lookin nice =)

 

[Guest]

Well this will give you something to put your mind too. :smile:

I should discuse this in the Nutrient Thread, but no one ever goes there..lol

But here is some FYI on the MAX :wink: I think we have our LK for Aero...

Max is a unique 2 stage booster designed to give you MAX results from your indoor hydroponic plants. Max’s performance is based on Humatic Isolate technology, a revolutionary & natural way to aid plant performance. Humatic Isolates are a large group of rare earth elements that when combined with phospholipid, select amino acids & minerals,help key areas of plant growth & development. The Humatic Isolates used in Max, are designed to aid nutrient uptake of selected elements that are known to benefit the vegetative & flowering stages of plant growth. These Humatic Isolates also provide with amino acids, special “nutrient reservoirs”, which the plant can draw from in times of need. Max also contains a basic enhancement suite of primary elements to allow for the increased uptake of those elements so as to allow your nutrient supply to remain in a balanced state.

MAX Vegetative Boost: Is designed to aid uptake of those elements which are beneficial for rapid sustained vegetative growth. The specialised Humatic Isolates in Max Vegetative Boost also help provide nutrient reservoirs which can provide the sustained nutrition for accelerated growth. This is particularly beneficial when using a foliar spraying regime as it helps provide the increased nutrition required for increased growth & branching that can often occur through the use of Foliar spraying

MAX Flowering Boost: Is designed to provide the critical nutrition necessary for a good flowering response in particular to aid in full phosphorous utilisation & uptake by the plant. Nutrient reservoirs of rare earth elements can provide your plants with the energy they need to extract the maximum value from the mineral nutrition supplied to them. These nutrient reservoirs also helps delay senescence (big word for aging/death) of the plant thereby helping provide a more sustained flowering response which will allow for larger & more numerous blooms.

Just glad to see you are still with us AeRoGaNiC, just as long as you hang on, it will turn around for you. Start balancing your systems...it will right itself.

I still want seaweed in here somewhere...damn it!

 

[AeRoGaNiC]

Humic Acid = Chelator. I love how they add all that extra stuff. Ions are supposed to be chelated organic style or they are locked up. Remember the stink I made about that one?

Simply put, organic chelates are just as important as inorganic ions. Its a co-dependency for stability. Crappy chelation is like trying to mail a letter through the postal service with no envelope... Its not making your plant "live longer" or delay anything, its just making sure its food is packaged nicely and actually gets used instead of rotting stuck to other food.

Hype... aye..

Dont get me wrong, Botanicare does a lot of the same mumbo jumbo. Humic acid is A Ok in my book!

 

[Guest]

The only problem with Botanicare is that clay ends up ionically adhered to everything, including your nozzles. Vader's res is a mess.

At least the Max is clear and hopefully wont cause the same issues, but I love LK...I'll have to find a DWC use for it.

This was an interesting discovery...JAT, did you know you can unscrew those Toro Hammer foggers? I didn't realize it until I just tried one. They unscrew so you can clean them out and unplug them. I also found that I can run them with a sump pump for a FAG cloner if I cycle...but I'm going to test to see if it warms the water with the back pressure. I thought that was cool...I thought I'd just have to throw those out.

 

[Guest]

Well lights on, looks like they are loving the DM1 at 1780 ppms..ph holding at 5.8.

Here some looks at the garden for Monday Oct. 10th.

 

[Guest]

Leaves are looking dark and shiny and very healthy..I've very happy to report, as well the pump has gone back to being quiet again...thank Gia.

Some nice detail shots.

This is a closer look at the Cinnamon flowers



And the late blooming Cinn sister...with her new growth tips.



They are the only ones still exhibiting a lot of red in the stems, the Rhinos are loosing it quickly as are the Hogs and TW.

 

[Guest]

Pod, it may be possible that running a ph near 6 may be preventing enough P uptake and cause the purple stems as P is more avail at a lower ph. Just a thought...

You are spot on here....

Anyhow, that 'whamp whamp whussshhh' you hear is called a 'bounce' in the line GroNut, it is caused by the pressure regulating before the pump can maintain the 50 psi. There are two things that slow or stop that.

2. Is to use a backflow prevention, which just keeps the pressure in the line and doesn't have to feed first.

The reason is the pump works immediately and almost immediately builds the pressure to 50 psi and slows to stopping, there is then a lag as the foggers release the pressure. This 'bounces' back and forth until a constant stream is created..usually in about 3 seconds.
:

This is what's happening. If I give the pump enough time between cycles, the mannyfold drains enough and the pump can find 50psi and hold it. If the pumps "off" cycle is too short, the pump comes back on and will just keep bouncing and won't stop. I may add a low line on the m/fold with a couple foggers on the lowest point to help drainage and see if that helps.

On backflow prevention, you mean having the pumps inlet flooded, yeah?

Thx

 

[Guest]

I try to keep my ph at around 5.8 which shouldn't be too high for the P, but you are correct that it should be more available at a lower ph, but I think that then causes the K def, which is more my issue. I think the red stems are more from cold now...as my temps are like 63F at night in the room due to my venting. They stay very chilled all night, so that might be a reaction to the cool air.

Currently, I just woke from my 4 hour nap, the plants look like they've grown shitloads since I took pictures this morning! I think they are finally getting their footing as they are just taking off now.

I think the higher level ppms are agreeing with them as they are totally enjoying it so far. I'm running at close to 1600 ppms now and they are just growing and growing! I can't keep it off 5.8 however, it locks in at that for about 10 ml in either direction with any solution (tells me that is the stable point).

Still have 5 weeks to go...lol Can't wait! lol

GroNut - The backflow is a valve like this:



http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?products_id=538

Which will keep the water in the line from siphoning out, so when your pump triggers again the water is already in the line ready to go. It usually helps with that bouncing.

I had a similar problem when I didn't have enough flow. Though I don't know why you wouldn't have enough? The only thing I can think of, if you have found no leaks, is to add a pressure 'T' back to the res and allow it to just run the loop as you close it off to see if that doesn't force any trapped air out of the line or correct the problem....

The pump should 'whirrrr' up and then bounce a couple times (like 3 tops) and settle into a low hum while it 'shhhhhhhh' releases the water. It shouldn't be any louder than one of those personal massage things. If you have a strong continuous bounce, there has got to be a flexible leak somewhere where the pressure builds up and is released quickly rather than steadily....I found this when I had a cap blown off as mentioned or if there was a leak in the poly between the fogger and the poly hose. But as solid a construction you have there...it seems odd you'd have anything wrong. lol

Its all part of the fun and games called 'what's new today to fix'...

Here are some pics 5 hours later...