Strain Hunters - Greenhouse Seeds Co.

[Sam_Skunkman]

DocLeaf,
Have you ever been to Jamaica?
If you have then what you saw in the 60-70's sure is different then what you see today.
I was last in Jamaica a few years ago, what I saw was 90% Indica/Sativa hybrids, I saw zero 100% Lambsbread, and I know lots of locals plugged into the growing and selling scene, lots.
I am not saying there is no Lambsbread in Jamaica, I am saying it is now hard to find, while hybrids are easy to find.
Why is that? Hint, Hint...
-SamS

Having sent seeds over to Jamaica ,, to Jamaican Allotmenteers that requested European genetics.. into areas that still cultivate landrace Jamaican varieties.. we didn't think we were acting irresponsibly at the time. Neither did they.

They still manage to cultivate and maintain their local lambsbread varieties in isolation in the region.

peace and flowers

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

It is just an old, old, local hemp variety that used to be grown in Holland. Nothing real special except early.
-SamS

Do you have some more info about these Frysian genes????

Namaste

 

[DocLeaf]

DocLeaf,
Have you ever been to Jamaica?
If you have then what you saw in the 60-70's sure is different then what you see today.
I was last in Jamaica a few years ago, what I saw was 90% Indica/Sativa hybrids, I saw zero 100% Lambsbread, and I know lots of locals plugged into the growing and selling scene, lots.
I am not saying there is no Lambsbread in Jamaica, I am saying it is now hard to find, while hybrids are easy to find.
Why is that? Hint, Hint...
-SamS

No never been,. friends family live there. They cultivate as part of a broader allotment system that supports friends and family within the local community.

As soon as we saw photos of your Skunk lines growing alongside local varieties in the hills c2006,, we had the same fear /misconception as yourself at the time and enquired if they had already ruined their local 'Jamaican' gene-pool.

Then they showed me the photos of their landrace plot,, and a lb of landrace ganja they scored from commercial farmers in a region just down the road. This helped restore faith in the fact that the main reason Jamaican growers like 'Dutch' genetics is because they grow quicker. The yield is however usually a lot lower than the tall sativa varieties they reap (much of which depends on season).

Several of the 'Rasta' we know won't touch hybridized weed in the UK,, let alone Jamaica. They actually claim that 'skunk' is like poison in society... designed to corrupt young minds,,, and is use-less for meditation (hint hint I wonder why). In this sense many landrace IBL varieties (not just the Jamaican ones) are reasonably safe in the hands of the heritage seed guardians that keep them,, like the Ashanti and Bobo tribes.

Interesting stuff

Peace n flower power
DocLeaf

 

[DocLeaf]

And just to be sure I do understand you right, if the local farmer wants kilos and kilos of Greenhouse feminized Hybrid seeds you would see nothing wrong with that, it is all up to the local farmer?

I do agree that hooking farmers up with feminized seeds (which do not produce males) is a monsanto tactic. The farmer will be forced to return to the point of sale to buy seed stocks continually,, or they will hybridize the feminized plants with local pollen to produce hybrid seeds of little cultural value.

That part , I'm with ya 100% Sam That's why we only send regular (male/female) seed stocks
Peace

 

[elmanito]

I am talking about a farmer asking for the help of a horticulturalist in producing a better crop. A crop that he can prosper better with than with what he currently grows.
I mentioned him using superior genes from his relatives crop in another village...is that also a crime against canna preservation?

Producing a better crop has more to do with the soil than choosing another variety.Masanobu Fukuoka has shown that with his farming method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSKSxLHMv9k

Don't forget that the farmer gets a very little of the profits which is earned with the hash trade, that's why i think it is time for a fair trade issue, so the farmers get more money for his goods.Some shop owners in Holland are already doing that.

To preserve the old varieties i think it would be good if the farmer gets a fair price for his seeds which could be sold in the west.

It is just an old, old, local hemp variety that used to be grown in Holland. Nothing real special except early.
-SamS

How old is this variety and is this variety still kept alive by some others than you alone???

Namaste

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

at least 100 years old.
It is not used in Holland anymore as all cultivated hemp varieties need to be EU listed or it is not applicable to the EU Hemp subsidy, without the subsidy there is no profit.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Why do you think that 90% of the herb grown in Jamaica is Indica/Sativa Hybrids? Or do you deny that?
-SamS

No never been,. friends family live there. They cultivate as part of a broader allotment system that supports friends and family within the local community.

As soon as we saw photos of your Skunk lines growing alongside local varieties in the hills c2006,, we had the same fear /misconception as yourself at the time and enquired if they had already ruined their local 'Jamaican' gene-pool.

Then they showed me the photos of their landrace plot,, and a lb of landrace ganja they scored from commercial farmers in a region just down the road. This helped restore faith in the fact that the main reason Jamaican growers like 'Dutch' genetics is because they grow quicker. The yield is however usually a lot lower than the tall sativa varieties they reap (much of which depends on season).

Several of the 'Rasta' we know won't touch hybridized weed in the UK,, let alone Jamaica. They actually claim that 'skunk' is like poison in society... designed to corrupt young minds,,, and is use-less for meditation (hint hint I wonder why). In this sense many landrace IBL varieties (not just the Jamaican ones) are reasonably safe in the hands of the heritage seed guardians that keep them,, like the Ashanti and Bobo tribes.

Interesting stuff

Peace n flower power
DocLeaf

 

[Baba Ku]

You know, if we are to take a firm preservationist stand...we will have to insist that growers stop growing, yes? I mean, if a population is continued on a year by year basis, then it only stands to reason that the population will drift away from what it once may have been, to something a bit different than remembered.
Does anyone think they can keep a field of Lambsbread the same for decades and decades?
Only way I see that happening is if the seeds of yesteryear are collected and saved for posterity. A working population is not going to stay the same. Oh, maybe for a few decades it may be similar...but are we not talking about long term here? The future, right?
And what about selective breeding of the crop? Is that not going to change the character of the strain over time? Or perhaps the farmer should do none of that?

I content that preservation is a fine and noble thing. But it is not the answer to all things cannabis. I find it goes into a bit of a selfish zone, to be honest.

I also content that there isn't anyone here who can keep a crop consistently the same if they grow it out every year for let's say half a century.
I dunno...maybe I'm wrong..show of hands?

Something else to think about..if it weren't for those who did hybridize cannabis over the millennium, then many of these strains folks see as old world heirlooms would not even exist.
Some landraces were not in existence in that particular land at one time.
How would some of these lines exist if everyone were strict preservationists back in the day?
Talk about boring...

*one more thing I'd like to touch on here...
I know this controversy stemmed from the comment that AJ made about bringing some of his fems to the farmers and introducing them into the gene pool. You know, even if plants from fem seeds were grown along in the population, it sure wouldn't make a dependency on fem seeds. The plants don't know from Adam that they are from fem seeds..all they know is that they are females. And the males of the population will pollinate them the same as if they were standard bred plants. So, NO...introducing fem seeds would not, and could not create a dependency on a continuing purchase of fem seeds.
The Monsanto factor does not apply here. They produce genetically modified crops..fems are not genetically modified in any way.

 

[ngakpa]

You know, if we are to take a firm preservationist stand...we will have to insist that growers stop growing, yes?

Baba Ku, your ideas about ecology and biology are so far wide of the mark I don't even know where to start

 

[elmanito]

at least 100 years old.
It is not used in Holland anymore as all cultivated hemp varieties need to be EU listed or it is not applicable to the EU Hemp subsidy, without the subsidy there is no profit.
-SamS

Interesting, but stupidity of Holland/EU not to preserve old varieties.I assume Wageningen University doesn't have it either in their fridge.

You know, if we are to take a firm preservationist stand...we will have to insist that growers stop growing, yes? I mean, if a population is continued on a year by year basis, then it only stands to reason that the population will drift away from what it once may have been, to something a bit different than remembered.
Does anyone think they can keep a field of Lambsbread the same for decades and decades?

So over the years that beautifull 15 ft high sativa will change in a 5 ft indica.

Namaste

 

[ngakpa]

we only send regular (male/female) seed stocks
Peace

how sure are you that you not taking part in the very same type of process by which hundreds of other breeds --- be they farm breeds of chicken, pig etc., or old heirloom varieties of crops such as tomatoes, beans, apples --- have been decimated and then crossed the critical threshold into extinction?

the same process has happened so many times before with other crops and breeds, and is going on right now

with animals alone, one farm breed goes extinct around the world every month or so

it seems to me we need to give more respect to the facts on the ground, and less to hunches and preconceptions

 

[Baba Ku]

No, elmanito...I am not talking about sativa changing to indica.
What I am talking about is the very nature of cannabis. It has the ability to react to whatever conditions or environments it experiences. Couple that with the fact that genetic changes can take place spontaneously and without apparent catalyst, and you have the recipe for an ever changing form of plant.
And that is considering it is grown in a pristine place where no other interactions can take place...which we surely know doesn't exist. Just the visit from a bird that had been feeding in another area growing a different line can introduce a change in a population.

Just who is the arbiter of what a so called landrace line is supposed to be?
Are we to depend on our memories to let us know what is what? Or do the expressions of the line not matter, and it is only that the line came from a specific place all that matters?
If we are using our own experiences to judge what is what, then I think a lesson on how time works may be in order. Our time on earth is minuscule in the grand scheme of things.
How do we suppose we should judge how things should be by our short visit?

And you know what, elmanito...I just may well be talking about sativa changing into indica after all. I think maybe that is exActly what I am saying.
Hmmmm.....

ngakpa, you can elude to my being off all you want, but I suggest you put your thinking cap on. It is easy to derail someones comments by simply making the assertion that they have no clues. Much harder to go into detail and explain yourself....try it.

 

[ngakpa]

Baba Ku

a wise man once said "never argue with fools - onlookers may not know the difference"

but to ignore that wise advice:

forget landraces for a minute

all ecosystems and all species are in constant flux and constant change -

according to your warped logic, the fact that the genes of a species or variety change calls into question the worth of conservation and preservation

all you are doing there is confusing categories and orders --- the whole line of reasoning you have is hopelessly addled, and as such very hard to address or unpick

look at it with a specific example, say the snow leopard

any snow leopard alive right now has very very different genes from the genes its grandparents had...

that is because of the genetic processes that take place during cell division when gametes are formed and then when a zygote is formed... (the fact is that species need that diversity within them to survive)

genetic differences aside, a snow leopard alive today is nevertheless a member of the same species as its grandparents --- it is still a snow leopard and it also needs to be conserved...

obviously!

so you see where your warped perspective on ecology and biology has led this discussion...

ecosystems, species, varieties --- all need diversity and change, it is essential to their survival

change in no way detracts from uniqueness, it is how it is created and perpetuated

hierloom varieties of crop have a lot more genetic diversity within them than IBLs and hybrids thereof

but that diversity exists within the parameters of the specific characteristics that definite that heirloom variety --- plant to plant an heirloom field will have many differences, but each plant identifiably belongs to the same variety

moreover, that diversity is what makes heirlooms so valuable --- it is why great botanists and breeders such as Vavilov etc. sought them out

and hence "landrace" - a variety unique to, and evolved according to the specific characteristics of x or y region

 

[Rinse]

What I am talking about is the very nature of cannabis. It has the ability to react to whatever conditions or environments it experiences.

Exactly, so when hydro/indoor hybrid/inbred feminized zero cbd boring terpene arjan seeds are mingling with the local landrace, you still think this is a good thing?

really needs to butt out of such matters.

Anyone pushing their hybrid seeds on farmers needs to butt out...

 

[ngakpa]

If all you are doing is using local genes to selectively improve local varieties, more power to you.
-SamS

exactly

that is the bottom line here Baba Ku

nobody at any point in this thread has ever argued against farmers' improving their crops

who in their right mind would argue against that?

the point is that there are right ways and wrongs ways to go about improving them

your and Doc Leaf's way, which erases biodiversity and leaves the world full of dreary polyhybrids

and the ecologically informed way, which preserves biodiversity and maintains the region's cannabis breeds for the future ---

and that biodiversity, here is an essential point, has an intrinsic value, and an economic value for the farmers in the longterm

in 30 years from now if cannabis is legalised, and the polyhybrids of Colombia and Mexico are indistinguishable from each other, you can bet the farmers in Santa Marta will wish they could sow a field of Colombian Golds etc.

 

[Baba Ku]

Look, Rinse. Point out just when I advocated mingling Arjans genes with anything?
Did you see me say that would be a good thing? Did you see me mount up any arguments for him to do so?

And I am not talking about, nor did I make any reference to anyone pushing seeds of any specificity on anyone.
I am talking about horticulture and crop management. Pure and simple.
Are you reading my words, or just making assumptions at what my points are?
I have not really talked about any specific landrace or crop here...other than the one shown in the video that has sparked all the debate. And who knows what that crop even is? It may be some sativa hybrid of some sort that is unique to that villiage.

And I have not once mounted a campaign against those who want to find and preserve old lines. Not once have I even eluded to it being a bad thing to do.
What I have said is that what gets collected is only a snapshot in time. What may be represented from those seeds may be something totally different than what our great, great, great grandchildren may see. They may not recognize it as the landrace variety they know.

And ngakpa, I find it funny how you just can't help yourself but to include your little rude jabs. Quite rude, actually.
But in any event. I would submit to you that things change and evolve for a reason. I know there is a certain mentality that is held by many that thinks it is absolutely imperative that the snow leopard be saved and preserved. But see they fall into the selfish category I spoke of earlier...in that you are basing your perceptions on your small little window of opportunity for existence. You are not looking at things the way nature apparently does.
It is obvious that things evolve for a purpose, and nothing was meant to remain the same. In fact, trying to keep things the same is fighting the very nature of nature itself.
Who are we to say that the snow leopard must remain?
I can tell you this much for certain...if all things remained the same, and things did not become exitinct for whatever reasons, this world would be nothing at all like what we see. In fact we probably wouldn't even be here to see it.
Surely you grasp that...or perhaps not. (shrug)

You know, it may even be better if you just lay on the rude and name calling even thicker and heavier as you go. Makes you look better if nothing else.

your and Doc Leaf's way

*(I love assumptions..they are the root of all fuckups)
Look, just what is my method? Post up the quote of my method for helping the farmer.
I am real forgetful and forget just what I suggest be done....

 

[Rinse]

It doesnt matter if they are arjan seeds that was an example...Any indoor bred hybrids being introduced I would be against...

I find it funny the way you keep saying things like "but out" and "who are we to decide"
When that is the exact thing I would say from my point of view...

Many animals and plants have gone extnct because of human intervention, so "who are we" to spread our version of a plant to indiginous places.

People should really "butt out" if they are trying to change ancient cultures - what is the purpose?

I believe it would NOT be beneficial for the farmers in the long run to grow the imported seed, I have said it before in this thread...

 

[ngakpa]

I know there is a certain mentality that is held by many that thinks it is absolutely imperative that the snow leopard be saved and preserved. But see they fall into the selfish category I spoke of earlier...

Who are we to say that the snow leopard must remain?

well, there we have it, saving the snow leopard is selfish...

 

[elmanito]

"Landrace populations are often highly variable in appearance, but they are each identifiable morphologically and have a certain genetic integrity. Farmers usually give them local names. A landrace has particular properties or characteristics. Some are considered early maturing and some late. Each has a reputation for adaptation to particular soil types according to the traditional peasant soil classifications, e.g. heavy or light, warm or cold, dry or wet, strong or weak. They also may be classified according to expected usage; among cereals, different landraces are used for flour, for porridge, for 'bulgur', and for malt to make beer, etc. All components of the population are adapted to local climatic conditions, cultural practices, and disease and pests."[1] But most important, they are genetically diverse. They are balanced populations – variable, in equilibrium with both environment and pathogens and genetically dynamic’.

I don't think that indoor varieties meet the standards ^^ above.If a farmer in North-India wants to improve his crop, he can better choose a variety which meets the same environmental conditions as where he grows his crop, Colombia, Northern-Thailand etc.

Namaste

 

[Baba Ku]

well, there we have it, saving the snow leopard is selfish...

Remember about what I said concerning how easy it is not to engage with specifics?
See, you don't go into detail, you apparently think being facetious is all you need to justify your position. Surely everyone else sees just what you see, aye? No need to expound...

Perhaps nature sees a reason for the demise of the snow leopard? Perhaps not.
Maybe you do harm to the plan by intervening?
The snail darter and the spotted owl...also beings that must remain no matter what, yes?
Both quite tasty as I understand it...