Strain Hunters - Greenhouse Seeds Co.

[Baba Ku]

I don't think that indoor varieties meet the standards ^^ above.If a farmer in North-India wants to improve his crop, he can better choose a variety which meets the same environmental conditions as where he grows his crop, Colombia, Northern-Thailand etc.

Namaste

I did not one time mention anything about introducing any specific genes. I did hear AJ mention it in his video..anyone read me state such a thing? Seems like lots of words are being placed on me that I didn't utter.
I did mention that one of the strategies that a consultant might use would be to integrate genes from another strain from a relatives village.

 

[DocLeaf]

how sure are you that you not taking part in the very same type of process by which hundreds of other breeds --- be they farm breeds of chicken, pig etc., or old heirloom varieties of crops such as tomatoes, beans, apples --- have been decimated and then crossed the critical threshold into extinction?

the same process has happened so many times before with other crops and breeds, and is going on right now

with animals alone, one farm breed goes extinct around the world every month or so

it seems to me we need to give more respect to the facts on the ground, and less to hunches and preconceptions

As heirloom seed guardian myself.. over several veggie varieties / lines,, one of which is around 400 years old,, then I fully agree with the importance of maintaining heritage crops... in isolation to other varieties,, for the future

However,, i also believe that people should be free to grow what they wish in their own garden and that it is slightly hypocritical for 'western society' to step in 300 years later to dictate (or even suggest) what other communities should or should not be cultivating.

For example,, as a seed guardian cultivating an English heirloom variety of pea,, it would be nonsense for anyone to say that growing a hybridized French variety of pea alongside it, or in replace of it is wrong.

Evolution.. evolves. Often at a rate quicker than we'd like it to.

Peace

 

[ngakpa]

i also believe that people should be free to grow what they wish in their own garden and that it is slightly hypocritical for 'western society' to step in 300 years later to dictate (or even suggest) what other communities should or should not be cultivating.

who is talking about "dictating" anything?

I'm just talking about acting responsibly

that's about you making a choice to do that, or not

For example,, as a seed guardian cultivating an English heirloom variety of pea,, it would be nonsense for anyone to say that growing a hybridized French variety of pea alongside it, or in replace of it is wrong.

that analogy doesn't hold out - it isn't comparable to what we are talking about with cannabis, and I think that's pretty obvious

Evolution.. evolves. Often at a rate quicker than we'd like it to.

Evolution?

are you saying that you posting hybrid seed to Jamaica is evolution?

so the loss of heirloom breeds and crops is evolution?

is the extinction of the snow leopard evolution?

or the destruction of the Amazon rainforest evolution?

look, the point here is that we as humans have a choice make - we can choose to act responsibly, or not

if you choose not to act responsibly, and post hybrid seed to a region of cannabis biodiversity, then just saying "oh, well it's all evolution" is nothing but a cop out...

 

[mrcreosote]

People should really "butt out" if they are trying to change ancient cultures - what is the purpose?

I agree. We should stop giving modern medicine to more primitive cultures and let them die 'organically', the way nature intended. If we let them live, they'll just become fat and addicted to Big Mac's anyway.
We need to keep these people in abject poverty and in a bare subsistence living to claim our rightful place of good Earth stewardship and to protect them from becoming as corrupt and mongrelized like ourselves.

This sounds like 'the white man's burden' argument in reverse. I'm not too sure I like it any better than the original.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth Rinse, as I know you don't mean what I wrote, but I'm just engaging in a bit of argumentum absurdum to illustrate the tendency of cultural hubris that exists in either proposition.
No different than nature, Mankind's lot seems to always favor improvement of viable survival methods and to deliberately withholding science or technological advances to that end, in the misguided idea of preservation of an imaginary or perceived pristine state, is probably not even possible even if it was desirable for narrow philosophical reasons.
I would not be the one to argue against a person losing their unique pristine status if they took a shot of medicine to alleviate the symptoms of a malarial infection.
There's probably a good reason you don't see a large following of people reverting back to a neolithic lifestyle to obtain a lost purity of authentic living.

I'll take my brownies and milk over a dead woodchuck any day.

The purity issue on landraces pretty much goes out the window if we consider the fact that migrating birds introduce non-indigenous seeds into every environment anyway. Those that introduce favorable survival genetics into the mix will become incorporated in the local population and survive and those that weaken the strain will die out.
Changes in a naturally managed population are inevitable and I have to agree with Baba Ku and say that at any given point in time we are looking at a snapshot of evolution in action.
I'm all for preservation of desirable strains as well, but I'm not against any kind of husbandry that would improve what exists.
Nature does it all the time.

Now if we crossed J-Lo with Cosmo Kramer would we get a really tall chick with a big booty? Good right?
What if she looks like Kramer? Not so good?
Depends...

Face up or face down. It all depends on your point of view.

 

[elmanito]

I did mention that one of the strategies that a consultant might use would be to integrate genes from another strain from a relatives village.

If village A grow sativa's with an outstanding quality, while village B grow indica's with a higher yield, but the quality is mediocre, would it be an improvement for the farmer of village A to introduce genes from village B to village A?

Namaste

 

[Baba Ku]

That would all depend on what the farmers want. I would be fine with them doing either/or.
Surely we can understand that a crop management program is going to be taken on by a professional. Not some clown wanting to introduce some crap for the fun of it.

Let me ask you this...do you think we should have any say so in what those village farmers do with their crops?
Also, do we not think that someone who would actually be in the position of helping the farmer would not collect the seeds from the previous harvest? Seems to me that would be one of the required steps if trying to improve a crop as a whole. But then, I am not versed enough to be the one to employ for such a task.
But let's assume there was a consultant working on crop improvement...if he actually collected the seeds from the harvest prior to his work beginning, would that satisfy the strict preservationist? Would it take any of the juju from the act, and make it more holy?

 

[ngakpa]

@mrcreosote

a nice attempt to reduce a serious discussion to a level where it won't get taken seriously

People should really "butt out" if they are trying to change ancient cultures - what is the purpose?

I agree. We should stop giving modern medicine to more primitive cultures and let them die 'organically', the way nature intended.

are you trying to draw a comparison between giving aid and medicine to "ancient cultures" and giving hybrid seed to traditional regions of cannabis biodiversity?

the analogy doesn't work, and as you say, it isn't addressing what Rinse said

in the misguided idea of preservation of an imaginary or perceived pristine state, is probably not even possible even if it was desirable for narrow philosophical reasons.

this isn't a discussion about culture mate --- are you just trying to derail it?

we're talking about ecology here

this is about the irreversible consequences of introducing cannabis hybrids into cannabis landrace areas

if you don't give a toss about the future of heirloom cannabis breeds, as seems clear, then just come out and say it

stop trying to muddy the waters

this isn't as you claim about "narrow philosophical reasons", it's about bland, irrefutable biological facts

I would not be the one to argue against a person losing their unique pristine status if they took a shot of medicine to alleviate the symptoms of a malarial infection.
There's probably a good reason you don't see a large following of people reverting back to a neolithic lifestyle to obtain a lost purity of authentic living.

you aren't really making sense --- what has that got to do with anything being discussed?

The purity issue on landraces pretty much goes out the window if we consider the fact that migrating birds introduce non-indigenous seeds into every environment anyway. Those that introduce favorable survival genetics into the mix will become incorporated in the local population and survive and those that weaken the strain will die out.

that's all just more muddled nonsense and irrelevant to the discussion

Changes in a naturally managed population are inevitable and I have to agree with Baba Ku and say that at any given point in time we are looking at a snapshot of evolution in action.
I'm all for preservation of desirable strains as well, but I'm not against any kind of husbandry that would improve what exists.
Nature does it all the time.

why is it when people want to defend ecocide they start conflating themselves and nature?

it's like some oil baron flooding some mangrove swamps with crude and then saying "well heck, nature does this kind of shit by itself every day... fuck it, I am Nature"

spare us all the obfuscation and self-justification

if you don't give a shit, then just come out and say "I don't give a shit"

 

[audioaddict]

I have jumped into this debate halfway through, I have skipped the last wad of pages so maybe I missed a turning point, but I am a little bemused as to how a thread about Arjan and Franco pretending to have some some integrity has turned into a debate about conservation in Africa.

Unlikely to say the least!

I would hazard a guess that Arjan and Franco don't give a rats ass about helping farmers in Africa, they're in it for the money... ie, they want to sell femmed seeds to farmers for profit perhaps?

I also doubt that Malawi needs its genetics working in Europe and giving back to them, I think that idea is arrogant to say the least, I mean some breeders really do think they are god, but that concept is taking it to the next level...

Plus I also imagine that Africans can manage their own crops, any Europeans who get invovled are doing it for profit and will always put profit and bottom lines ahead of integrity and conservation.

I reckon I have missed the point in a big way, mainly by reading the first few pages and fuming myself into replying, but I think my main point it that westerners only ever mess around in Africa for gain... as for taking old/heirloom genetics and doing what you want with them... great, but then taking those worked genetics and introducing them back to the source is insanely irresponsible, selfish and only serves the interests of people who profit from lack of diversity.

Keeping heirloom and traditional cultivars safe and seperate from new world polyhybrids doesn't stop Arjan or the myriad of other breeders/hacks/growers/gangstas out there messing with genes and enjoying/learning/benefiting/profiting/whatever...

Mixing it all up and labelling it evolution is just silly, it is arrogant and is only acknowledging the needs of the commercial grower industry and ignoring people who actually care about genuine diversity.

 

[Baba Ku]

The purity issue on landraces pretty much goes out the window if we consider the fact that migrating birds introduce non-indigenous seeds into every environment anyway. Those that introduce favorable survival genetics into the mix will become incorporated in the local population and survive and those that weaken the strain will die out.

that's all just more muddled nonsense and irrelevant to the discussion

Seriously...you don't grasp what the man is trying to say?
Let me help a bit...birds have, and will probably be the biggest one source for the diversity of cannabis. They fly from one place on the globe to a completely different place on the globe, and they do lots of shitting the seeds they may have eaten before the trip.
These defecated seeds will inevitably germinate and grow within other cannabis populations. When this happens the laws of nature take hold and the traits that allow the mix of the two and their survival will continue, and the weaker ones will dissipate from the maps.
It is a simple concept, and is completely relevant to the discussion.

See, it is not that he or I don't give a shit...it is that we know that no matter how hard you try to conserve a strain, all you can do is collect a snapshot in time of what the strain was at one time.
The birds will come along and royally bollocks up your perceptions.
Damn the birds!

Besides that...the population doesn't need any introduction of new genes to drift away from what you may know it as.

 

[Farang]

I suppose the ones to decide that would be the group of people that had this spiritual connection. I think it would behoove them to preserve what they will to satisfy their own purposes.
Perhaps this group welcomes the genetic diversity that could positively effect the local population? Are we to decide that?
And if you actually think about what is happening with cannabis, you are not going to preserve a landrace anyway.
You can have the purest form of landrace seeds, and it is possible that when you grow them they will be nothing like the plants where they originated.

The Africaan farmer, who has been making an existence from the indigenous plants available to him, might be quite pleased with some genetic diversity and the possibility of him increasing his livelyhood and standard of living as a result.
The weed on the farmers land that you think is a landrace worthy of preservation, may in the eyes of the farmer be an invasive strain that harms his good crop.

I don't think there is anything at all wrong with collecting and attempting to preserve strains..any strains. But to think we are doing the Earth a favor, makes me think we have fallen victim to more vanity.
It is my belief that the Earth will do what it will and as it will for reasons that are far from the business or control of us.

You know...I think just about every indigenous strain known has it's genes in the makeup of a commercial cultivar somewhere. And if these genes are there, are they really lost? -Or, perhaps they are there for us to enjoy and do with as we please?

I know your post is old Babaku, but if you really think "deeper" then you would realise that bringing plants, seeds, or animals for that matter to a place where it doesn´t belong in the first place, can cause big problems with the fauna and wildlife. There is a reason that you can not bring ANY seed or food to for example New Zealand. Still they have "opossums" that doesn´t belong there and you can see them everywhere. If you put pike in a lake where it doesn´t belong, it can outchallenge other spieces of fish and make them extinct from their natural environment. Of course we dont want that. (Sorry for my english)

Farang

 

[Baba Ku]

Again, tell the birds where the cannabis belongs.

 

[audioaddict]

Birds aren't breeding dodgy hermie genes into strains (EDIT- I should rephrase that last line, not very scientific! "Birds don't feminise seeds!"), neither do they work lines so that they are genetically bottlenecked and no real use in a large breeding pool, nor do they introduce unwanted dominant genes, etc etc.

Trying to compare human selective breeding, that is done solely for the benefit of humans, with natural selection and evolution is bunk logic.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Baba Ku,
If the plants are from feminized seeds and they are pollinated from wind blown pollen they will make seeds that are hybrids between the feminized and the pollen source. So the genes do get mixed. Or the feminized seeds could contribute other genes if they have them, like inter-sexed genes? Also Indicas to a Sativa traditional area?
As for a crop staying the same for 50 years, it was easy until people started taking hybrid seeds to traditional areas of Cannabis production.
Let me ask you a question, do you know any grower in the West that has even grown for 50 years? Much less grown the same variety from seed each year for 50 years?
I know I could do it easy.
-SamS

You know, if we are to take a firm preservationist stand...we will have to insist that growers stop growing, yes? I mean, if a population is continued on a year by year basis, then it only stands to reason that the population will drift away from what it once may have been, to something a bit different than remembered.
Does anyone think they can keep a field of Lambsbread the same for decades and decades?
Only way I see that happening is if the seeds of yesteryear are collected and saved for posterity. A working population is not going to stay the same. Oh, maybe for a few decades it may be similar...but are we not talking about long term here? The future, right?
And what about selective breeding of the crop? Is that not going to change the character of the strain over time? Or perhaps the farmer should do none of that?

I content that preservation is a fine and noble thing. But it is not the answer to all things cannabis. I find it goes into a bit of a selfish zone, to be honest.

I also content that there isn't anyone here who can keep a crop consistently the same if they grow it out every year for let's say half a century.
I dunno...maybe I'm wrong..show of hands?

Something else to think about..if it weren't for those who did hybridize cannabis over the millennium, then many of these strains folks see as old world heirlooms would not even exist.
Some landraces were not in existence in that particular land at one time.
How would some of these lines exist if everyone were strict preservationists back in the day?
Talk about boring...

*one more thing I'd like to touch on here...
I know this controversy stemmed from the comment that AJ made about bringing some of his fems to the farmers and introducing them into the gene pool. You know, even if plants from fem seeds were grown along in the population, it sure wouldn't make a dependency on fem seeds. The plants don't know from Adam that they are from fem seeds..all they know is that they are females. And the males of the population will pollinate them the same as if they were standard bred plants. So, NO...introducing fem seeds would not, and could not create a dependency on a continuing purchase of fem seeds.
The Monsanto factor does not apply here. They produce genetically modified crops..fems are not genetically modified in any way.

 

[Baba Ku]

I was not actually advocating the use of fem seeds, that was AJ's silly statement. I only pointed out that the fact that the seeds were fems had nothing to do with the results of the mixing of genes. The statement was made that introducing fems would bring about a dependency on fem seed purchases from then on. Not the case and I was simply pointing that out.

And it was others suggesting that I was wanting to use indica in a sativa area. Lots of things get put into peoples words that they didn't say when heated arguments with folks who don't even really read what was previously posted.

No, I don't know anyone that has grown for such a long time.
But, Sam...let me ask you this... If you grow the same strain for 50 years, do you think it will stay the same as it is now say 50 years down the road? I think maybe it will..IF all the conditions it is used to stay the same.
Let something change, like the amount of rain per year, temperature flux, abnormal UV absorption, or anything really...perhaps the soil is seeing drain water from a newly exposed cache of mineral deposit? Any number of things can happen or change in a half a century, and the population will respond accordingly.
It can and will change...it is in it's nature to do so.
You know that better than anyone.

Let me add...on the grand scheme of things, 50 years is but a moment. But I fear that we often let our own perception of time as humans dictate how we think about things...even though our gauge of time is way off compared to natures clock. Humans tend to have a very limited perspective of things.
lol...like me, I am over 50 and I feel real old.

 

[ngakpa]

Again, tell the birds where the cannabis belongs.

Seriously...you don't grasp what the man is trying to say?
Let me help a bit...birds have, and will probably be the biggest one source for the diversity of cannabis. They fly from one place on the globe to a completely different place on the globe, and they do lots of shitting the seeds they may have eaten before the trip.
These defecated seeds will inevitably germinate and grow within other cannabis populations. When this happens the laws of nature take hold and the traits that allow the mix of the two and their survival will continue, and the weaker ones will dissipate from the maps.
It is a simple concept, and is completely relevant to the discussion.

See, it is not that he or I don't give a shit...it is that we know that no matter how hard you try to conserve a strain, all you can do is collect a snapshot in time of what the strain was at one time.
The birds will come along and royally bollocks up your perceptions.
Damn the birds!

@Baba Ku

I understood completely what he was trying to say, my point was that it has next to no bearing on what happens in reality

the point Farang made is in itself an illustration of that, if you care to dwell on it

so, as Farang says here

if you really think "deeper" then you would realise that bringing plants, seeds, or animals for that matter to a place where it doesn´t belong in the first place, can cause big problems with the fauna and wildlife. There is a reason that you can not bring ANY seed or food to for example New Zealand.
Farang

most islands nations, New Zealand and Australia being two notable examples, have very strict restrictions on bringing in seeds, plants and animals... for exactly the reasons we have been discussing

and yet according to your bird theory, cannabis seeds should have been distributed all around the world by birds a long, long time ago...

and if birds are as effective as you seem to think at distributing cannabis, then by now cannabis populations should not only be everywhere, they should also be pretty well the same as each other

and yet, cannabis has been around for more than 30 million years

so why wasn't cannabis found to grow wild in Australia or New Zealand when European colonists arrived?

surely, according to your bird idea, birds should have carried cannabis from Asia to Oz and NZ?

I mean there are plenty of birds that migrate from Central Asia via India to the Southern Hemisphere inc. Australia...

perhaps you can answer that...

 

[Krull]

Things go on in ways that we often dont like.
Strains spreaded randomly in a new environment eventually will evolve in something new and interesting cause mother nature always prevails, i prefer to think in optimistic terms.
Anyway it is very important to preserve old genetics and reintroduce them if needeed.
Its an heavy task that hopefully some conscious breeder continues to carry on.
Farmers need to be educated but cant be blamed too much.
Seeds companies with more resources and money should act in a more responsible way.



Peace

=K

 

[Baba Ku]

So, you are trying to say that because the first colonist to the lands didn't find cannabis growing, that it didn't exist there? Or perhaps the birds that flew there weren't seed feeders?
Who the hell knows...maybe you could do some research and answer your own questions.
But to think that what you are providing is disproving the bird theory, is just ignorance.
It is not a theory that birds have, and will continue to, displaced cannabis, it's a fact.
As do people.

 

[vansanta]

hello all, here's my 2 cents,

I've read the debate from the beginning.
I just would like to bring back some facts and I would like to start with this sentence of BabaKu:

"Let me help a bit...birds have, and will probably be the biggest one source for the diversity of cannabis. They fly from one place on the globe to a completely different place on the globe, and they do lots of shitting the seeds they may have eaten before the trip.
These defecated seeds will inevitably germinate and grow within other cannabis populations. When this happens the laws of nature take hold and the traits that allow the mix of the two and their survival will continue, and the weaker ones will dissipate from the maps.
It is a simple concept, and is completely relevant to the discussion."

that's right, it's a natural process occurring all over the world, but what's happen is more complex than that.
A bird or a group of birds carry seeds from a place to an other. they "sow" these "foreign" seeds into a well establish and well acclimated population of cannabis.These stranger seeds have to face a lot of different parameter like climate and micro climate,hours of light,type of soil and weather. that is a great factor of death into a patch of seed and plant.
Admitting that these foreign seeds have well sprout and grow into this local patch of plant and reproduced, genes are mixed.
But the best word is more melted.
I don't think that birds carry more seeds on a land than the local production, so the ration of Local/Foreign seed is, IMHO, never 50/50 or 40/60, maybe more 90/10. am i right?
Now let's see what's happen in this patch. Local genes are melted with foreign genes giving birth to new plant(f1). Now natural selection start. After few years the "new" strain is stabilised and have deactivated all useful genes .It's like new blood but the strain is not totally different from its elders.
Because of the ratio of new genes and environmental pressure. in this particular environment (the proper of landrace), a limited group of characteristic are allowed to express, and natural selection kick out all weak or unadapted character.
that is natural selection, because, nature as a whole have influence a plant.

Lets go back to the hybrid, first of all does hybrid a naturally selected? human are natural but not nature, just a part of this nature. The most part of commercial hybrids have been bred and selected under the "human nature", well controlled environment. Commercial hybrid have not the reputation to be a reservoir of diversity, this is because of the nature of their reproduction, few individuals, cross breeding, consanguinity etc.. F1 hybrid , giving non homogeneous line of descent are a picture of a moment in the time. Nature do f1 hybrids too, that's true, but environmental pressure do its job and stabilise these hybrids in few generations.Genes of commercial hybrid are not new blood, they are like "consanguineous" and them gene-pool is not living enough to thrive under natural condition and pressure.because they have been bred under human conditions.

What's happen in a landrace farmer patch. first of all, the myth of the smallness and poor quality of landrace have ever been broken but it's seems that this legend is still alive.
of course, commercial hybrid yield better, but, again, under human environment. A farmer want to improve and increase his yield and quality, which is legitimate.
He buy a bag of F1hybrid and sow it in his field. This hybrid bred under our conditions is now under the natural pressure. Natural selection do its job and kick out the unadapted,useful and weak characteristic. Of course first yield will be great, but what happens when this farmer harvest the seeds has he have always done and sow them next year? F2, with all the problem that it cause, like low yield due to great difference between plants . Of course after f10 or f20 plant will be stabilised. But unlike a natural bird breeding between two good gene-pool landraces that inject each other good blood, we have brought a weak blood, that instead of injecting new blood inject a weak blood that at least have no interest at worst exhaust the local gene-pool. it's not a battle between north and south, but why European always think that what they do is better than other. Yes we have made good yielder and very potent stuff, that can grow even in Scandinavia and things like that.That's a good thing, but we have done that order to answer our need, not the need of other in the world. the grand grand parents of our hybrid were these landraces, and look what we have done with it, look all this great hybrid.
all that a farmer want is to live from his crop.help him to increase the yield of his locals variety is more suitable and long term efficient than just sell him our hybrids, making him hold out the prospect of better product. This debate is not new, and not only in the cannabis community, it concern all the crop management.

remember that being a part of the nature don't mean that what we do is natural.Nature is a net of relation, woven with thread of chaos.Nature have its own pattern in which all living and non living things is a thread. what humans have done with his "superior" brain is trying to woven his own piece of fabric,justifying this fact by saying that his copying (badly) the natural pattern.we start to see how this fabric is weak so maybe it's time to be humble and engage our intelligence and strength to help nature to woven the global thread, instead of our selfish one.

Vansanta

 

[DocLeaf]

If the plants are from feminized seeds and they are pollinated from wind blown pollen they will make seeds that are hybrids between the feminized and the pollen source. So the genes do get mixed. Or the feminized seeds could contribute other genes if they have them, like inter-sexed genes?

Let me ask you a question, do you know any grower in the West that has even grown for 50 years?

Just a fraction under 50 years . yes, there abouts. Not the same strain mind... and they probably smoked the leafs. peace

 

[Baba Ku]

Vansanta, that was quite a first post.
I agree with everything you stated, but I would add the word "responsible" to the term crop management.
A responsible crop manager on a mission to help an indigenous farmer would surely know what genes to use for crop improvement. I would suspect him using that of a nearby crop that produces better, than a hybrid from some dutch tent. He would surely understand all the issues you mentioned.