Strain Hunters - Greenhouse Seeds Co.

[vansanta]

Yes Baba ku,
and now, we can see that spreading hybrid in those local places which have their own wealth, is not responsible at all, knowing long term effect of this type of "improvement" and "help"
and that's the point.
The first question was in fact how improve the crop of the farmers.
I think that we have reach the same point that's hybrid are not the solution. hybrid are for country were there's no local strain or for indoor places.
Local strain are the best candidate, due to their long acclimatization to local environmental pressure, to suit the need of the farmers.
I even go further by saying that they don't need to cross with an other local strain, because at long term, even the good yield of this type of cross will fall down to their "local climax".
A good knowledge of soil life and how improve it with local material and simple method is the best way to improve yield, strength of the plant, diversity, fertility, potency and self-sufficiency, while preserving the earth and farmers health. Of course my words seem to sing the praises of natural farming and it's not a panacea, but I think it's the best way to help farmer with their legitimate needs while preserving the diversity and wealth of these terroir.
whereas medical cannabis market is growing exponentially for the benefit of patients, these strains bred and grown for medical and wellness purpose since century will be imho very precious for the benefit of the humanity.
Vansanta

 

[Rinse]

Baba ku I could have sworn this has already been explained but - cannabis naturally changing over years is not the same as hybridising...
You keep repeating the same things that have been discussed and turn out to be not so solid theory's...

Heres another angle I just thought of - Many cannabis users in "3rd world" countries use it for heightened alertness, concentration and physical work...
Think about how strains such as (eg) Malawi are analogous to that way of life...

It seems most indiginous sativa's have practically the same high as they did 50, if not 100+ years ago as evidenced by writings from back then (see Indian hemp drugs commision report)

Now if someone came and bred I dont know some super skunk x nl5 haze to the plants...
This would not be the case! The cannabinoid profle will have very noticably changed...
Not to mention grow characteristics how they fair in the African soil/sun etc.

 

[Baba Ku]

First off..it wasn't me that was suggesting using any specific plant genes, be they indica or otherwise. I was not getting into the specifics of the crop management program, just stating that it is not a bad thing to do.

And I will have to disagree with the blanket statements being made about hybrids. See, we are getting back to your perception of a hybrid I suppose?
Look, a hybrid from a couple sativas from a similar geographic location that has been stabilized could easily be used in such a program.
A stable hybrid using two landrace types could be used.
Perhaps the manager chose to use a local indigenous hybrid?

Rinse, with all respect, HTF do you know what the quality of high, or any other aspect of a specific line of cannabis for that matter, from 50-100 years ago?
And I don't know what you mean by not so solid theories? Could you quote me and we can discuss what theory I offered up that isn't so solid?

 

[vansanta]

Look, a hybrid from a couple sativas from a similar geographic location that has been stabilized could easily be used in such a program.
A stable hybrid using two landrace types could be used.
Perhaps the manager chose to use a local indigenous hybrid?

This is the basic rule of exchange and farming since the human race dig with its hand to plant seeds.This kind of exchange between village or farmer from different valleys have occurred throughout the human history, but their aim was nor profit or the biggest yield of the valley.
It's a medicinal plant like thousand other one, very potent for sure, and that's why it was spread all over the world. Now card have changed,that's a fact, and if it's a good yield that farmers want, i don't think that the solution come from the plant in itself but more from the way of growing. Globalisation and Internet is very good in the point that we can now share thousand of idea and experiences about farming from all over the world . And the result is some very good efficient and self-fertile method of growing. Of course the ancestral knowledge is precious, but in growing method evolution have to play a role too. Once the soil is fertile and alive, farmer can start to think of improvement by hybridisation (from local/near source) if the results are not enough good. if in your garden your favourite and well adapted tomato plant yield only 10 fruit, don't throw it, lay just a handful of compost or worm casting and spray few nettle tea, and you will see what's happen. farming is a long journey of experimentation and self-questioning. stop thinking of self profit at first but think of the plant profit and then you will be rewarded.

 

[Rinse]

And I will have to disagree with the blanket statements being made about hybrids. See, we are getting back to your perception of a hybrid I suppose?
Look, a hybrid from a couple sativas from a similar geographic location that has been stabilized could easily be used in such a program.
A stable hybrid using two landrace types could be used.
Perhaps the manager chose to use a local indigenous hybrid?

I already said in that case its relatively fine.

Rinse, with all respect, HTF do you know what the quality of high, or any other aspect of a specific line of cannabis for that matter, from 50-100 years ago?

Reread what I said, It SEEMS the highs are the same from reading articles that go into fair detail about the effects such as the Indian hemp report.
Im sure they are not exactly, but relatively the same.

I find it hard to believe you cant see what Im getting at here,
they've done tests recently on heirloom vege's and it turns out they have better nutrient profiles than the hybrids, which have been selected mostly for commercial purposes.

There is a whole new scene of heirloom homegrowers (well some new) because the heirlooms taste better and many have unique characteristics.

If such a company as monsanto had its way (this is just an example) there would be no heirlooms available to the public and we would all be buying patented bottleneck shit gene hybrids with barely any mineral content.

If you agree that this is wrong and you want to live in a world where the original, more natural plants thrive, then we dont have much of an argument.

 

[mrcreosote]

ngakpa,
Sorry my paltry attempts at humor distressed you but I'm glad to see you're also not above using overwrought hyperbole to make a point. Your tirade adds immensely to the seriousness of the subject.
Rinse brought up the subject of changing cultures so I merely indulged myself as I clearly stated.
Far from being a oil-pumping ecocidal maniac, I believe that those inclined to collect and preserve landraces should do so and I wish them great success.
I will say that before they lecture local farmers on their 'responsibly' to preserve their own crops for the collectors pleasure that they might consider that the local cash-cropper is no different than any other who grows MJ for a living and it could seem a bit hypocritical that these same people have let many strains almost completely disappear through cross-breeding to 'improve' their success should say that he be denied the same opportunity.
What is an rare and elite landrace to some is just local bagseed to another.

By all means, landraces should be preserved by those inclined to do so but trying to compel or limit locals to only producing what serves the collectors purposes may seem ecologically sound but has a tinge of a colonial attitude.
'Plenty of choice for me but none for thee' is a lousy foreign relations policy.

I will admit that Arjan and Franco should collect their seeds, pay the locals handsomely, and leave his own seeds at home but that's not my call.
Life is about choices, even the ones I don't approve of.

 

[Mr. Fantastic]

Robert Connell Clarke predicted all of this. He specifically warns against introducing foreign hybridized strains into native gene pools. I suspect it is far too late. Feminized genes are a genetic dead end. When you wipe out the Y chromosome you are certainly losing potential genes that could lead to crop improvement.

 

[ngakpa]

hello again mrcreosote

well, I didn't see any hyperbole in my post, or anything funny in yours...

so look, who is even talking about "compulsion" - let alone actually trying to "compel" the local farmers to grow anything?

I'm not, and I haven't seen anybody else saying we should either --- nevermind anybody actually trying to

this whole line that attempting to preserve x or y crop or breed (in situ) is "hypocritical neocolonialisam" hinges on this idea that there is some kind of "compulsion of the local farmers" going on...

where? when? by who?

if any compulsion of local farmers goes on, you can be sure that is most likely to be mafia pushing vulnerable indigenous groups to take up growing...

this kind of thing happens all across India these days... and I'm sure in Mexico etc. it happens, and there it is with the mafia supplying growers with hybrid seed

--- the whole direction of the arguments in this thread has just been that outsiders should stop bringing the hybrid seeds in - not the ludicrous idea that people should go out and try to stop local farmers from growing them, or deprive them of the right to make a choice

the whole point has been about persuading people who have access to the full picture to make informed responsible choices --- to think about the longterm consequences of our actions in an honest way

if I'm supporting anything here it is the rights of local farmers, not just now, but fifty years on from now too

how about the future rights of these regions' farmers, if and when legalisation happens, such as the right of these growers to market their product as "Thai", "Oaxacan Gold" etc.?

is "appellation controlle" for cannabis breeds "hypocritical neocolonialism"?

under prohibition it is impossible for cannabis farmers to have any kind of rights - contracts, pensions, unions etc.

but for now they could at least be allowed the right to make an informed decision about what they grow

so where's the real "neocolonialism"?

how many mafia or outsiders who bring in hybrid seed to these regions would provide the farmers with the full picture about the consequences of growing hybrids (if they even understood it, let alone giving a shit about it)?

and then, 50 years from now, when the old breeds will have disappeared into a homogenised polyhybrid slop...

will there even be any point in talking about the rights of farmers in these regions to market their traditional breeds in an appellation controlle system?

so that is what I am talking about - the rights of farmers not to have their regional strains irreparably screwed up by greedy and/or indifferent people

frankly with the combined effect of prohibition and the spread of new hybrids everywhere, it is a losing battle

I'm just surprised that people on these boards will come out and actively defend spreading hybrids...

and that to the point of actually arguing the case with Sam, the man who created Skunk, when he comes out in favour of acting responsibly and not taking hybrids to regions of cannabis biodiversity

Namkha

 

[Farang]

If a landrace or local variety is a pure Indica then Sativa genes will alter it for sure. Same with pure Sativas, do you really want them Kushed at their site of origin and maintenance?
You are being shortsighted to say the least.
As most Western genetics is nowadays a mix of Sativas and Indicas to take them to traditional Cannabis cultivation areas is a crime, both to the local growers and the gene-pool.
Also taking Indicas to tropical, humid, wet areas will not always help the growers, maybe it just make much bigger problems, like lack of mold resistance. The best intentioned gifts can have the most unintended results.
I suggest we all try and leave traditional areas of Cannabis cultivation alone and not introduce new genes to try and "help" them. They have more then they can deal with just being the caretakers of the local varieties. If you want to play with Cannabis genes use the results in places where it can do no harm, because their are no local landraces needing protection.
We are all just caretakers, what we do will effect all of the gene-pool, good or bad.
Lets not destroy all the work that took hundreds or even thousands of years of selection to create, just in a mistaken attempt to "help".
I like diversity, it is the way it should be.
We should all be glad that farmers did not take the advice of Mr. Baba Ku over the last hundred years, or we would only have hybrids today and nothing else.
-SamS

What a wonderful post Sam

Is it in your opinion common knowledge and "normal" breeding practises going on with ganja as with other crops? Or do you think the fact that ganja is illegal in most parts of the world affects the breeding practices, being more of an underground thing?
Are other crops such as coffe, pepper, grapes etc being affected in the same way to the same extent? Internet-age to blame?

Farang

 

[elmanito]

Feminized genes are a genetic dead end. When you wipe out the Y chromosome you are certainly losing potential genes that could lead to crop improvement.

Feminized still have the y-chromosomes, even intersex genes is quite common in Cannabis.Autoflower genes is becoming a worst nightmare in the gene pool of Cannabis, since they're pretty strong.Hybrids with autoflower genes (25%) even start to flower under a 24 hr light cycle.

Namaste

 

[BlueGrassToker]

It is the Y chromosome that a plant propagated from feminized seeds lacks. But so does the female plant from regular seeds. There is no difference between the two, other than one came from fem seeds and the other came from regular. Neither know what the history of it's parents are.

And no, feminized seeds are not a genetic dead end of any sort. The males of the population that they are introduced in will pollinate the female seed plants same as it would the rest of the females.

I have to agree with elmanito about the autoflowering varieties. To me they are of much more concern than any feminized seeds could ever be.

 

[Mr. Fantastic]

How do you figure they are the same? When a standard male hits the standard female you have XX and XY when feminization occurs the Y chromosome does not get passed hence the fact the seeds can only be XX or feminized. There is a whole lot of genetic info in the Y chromosome. To say that they will breed the same is just wrong. Have you ever seen a punnet square? I guess you are right this is not the true issue at hand. The real issue is Arjan and his chronies fucking up isolated genepools with their hijacked strains. Also why is it that they won't release the Malawi in its pure form like Gypsy did with the Luang Prabang. That's because they are greedy and they do not give a shit about the evolution of cannabis.

 

[elmanito]

How do you figure they are the same?

Nice information in the following link; https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=172064
Have fun

Also why is it that they won't release the Malawi in its pure form like Gypsy did with the Luang Prabang.

As business man he probably sees no profits in selling the real deal like Malawi Gold.His eye has not fallen for the sustainability of the cannabis gene pool, but he rather wants that his strains of despair would grow in every corner of the globe, only the local farmers are not so happy with the males you're getting.

Namaste

 

[BlueGrassToker]

How do you figure they are the same? When a standard male hits the standard female you have XX and XY when feminization occurs the Y chromosome does not get passed hence the fact the seeds can only be XX or feminized. There is a whole lot of genetic info in the Y chromosome. To say that they will breed the same is just wrong. Have you ever seen a punnet square? I guess you are right this is not the true issue at hand. The real issue is Arjan and his chronies fucking up isolated genepools with their hijacked strains. Also why is it that they won't release the Malawi in its pure form like Gypsy did with the Luang Prabang. That's because they are greedy and they do not give a shit about the evolution of cannabis.

I have seen a punnet square or two in my day. It has nothing to do with this issue.

When a plant is pollinated by another female that produced stamen, the resulting progeny will lack the Y chromosome.
This means that each seed of the lot will be female, as there were no Y chromosomes available during meiosis of the two parent plants.
Now, once those female seeds are sprouted they are female plants. Nothing about them in any way, shape or fashion is different from any other female.

If you had two sets of seeds from the same mother plant, but two separate fathers...one being a regular male, and the other being a sister female that was stressed to produce pollen, there is nothing about the two that would be distinguishable from one another besides phenotype expression. You couldn't tell the difference with your eyes or with the most advanced lab equipment, basically because there is absolutely no difference.

Now, before you state again that I am just wrong, perhaps you can show me where to find info that backs up your assertions?
Start with what specific genetic information is carried by the Y chromosome that isn't also carried by the X chromosome?
Please tell me this is more than just a feeling you have.

 

[Mr. Fantastic]

1

 

[Mr. Fantastic]

If you had two sets of seeds from the same mother plant, but two separate fathers...one being a regular male, and the other being a sister female that was stressed to produce pollen, there is nothing about the two that would be distinguishable from one another besides phenotype expression. You couldn't tell the difference with your eyes or with the most advanced lab equipment, basically because there is absolutely no difference.

Really no difference at all? Come on.

 

[BlueGrassToker]

None.
Do you have something that would state otherwise?

 

[Mr. Fantastic]

What about future generations? Maybe I am making assumptions I just can't help but think that there must be some genes that control other factors besides sex in the Y chromosome. You know more than me obviously so what do you know of the genes that the Y chromosome passes?

 

[BlueGrassToker]

The Y chromosome passes on maleness.
Without it, you get femaleness.

Like I stated, there is no difference in a female brought from fem seeds and a female brought by standard seeds. SO the future for each is the same. Whatever male pollen happens to pollinate the female seeds females, there will be a recombination of each plants genetic maps, and a new map will be shaken out for each and every seed with a slightly different recombination of genes. Both males and females will come from that pollination. Same thing for the regular seeds when pollinated.

So many people seem to have a thing about feminized seeds. Problem is, the thing they have with them is usually just hearsay and rumor passed around by those who only make assumptions.
Many just feel that since the thing is past what they know and understand, they figure there just has to be some sort of bad juju involved. And I have seen in here where these assumptive claims tend to bring about huge battles.
It pains me to see intelligent people fight and argue about things like this.
But if we look...most all of the arguments are mounted by people who make assumptions and claim bad juju, with little to no backing up of their assertions at all.
Well, I say little to no back up...they will often have others who also make blind claims to help them fight.

Ignorance is an expensive mofo...

 

[elmanito]

The Y chromosome passes on maleness.
Without it, you get femaleness.

Never heard of XXY etc

Namaste