Strain Hunters - Greenhouse Seeds Co.

[bodhiseeds]

ive pondered this deeply over the years of collecting in different cannabis hotspots....

i bring heirloom vegetable seeds, dry fruit, topical antibiotics, and ball point pens....

we need to think from our hearts not our ego's....

 

[charlie garcia]

If Colombia could be an example, Ive seen how poor weed is sold today, you cant figure out such a tremendous drop in quality when few years ago any local weed could put you in orbit still and despite several inbreeding waves. Uncultured farmers, dealers, seed givers, greed, money, now new fashion and globalitation whatever you want, you could smoke so potent things short ago but not now. Results of last decades are pesimum at least what I saw, different type of effects basically and so little potency if compared. New weeds are grown for the masses as well but cant compete in any aspect to some older lines, brought from other sources like El Manito says or using some older locals. I understand cannabis is not native there but it seems old lines brought there or inbred there were much much more interesting and results turned great, not comparison with todays crosses being grown. Maybe in several decades will improve again, maybe, maybe not. So losing all primary old lines brought there and using new present lines instead doesnt make the trick that clear like as it did before. Guess some foreing lines can thrieve and improve sometimes in other climates and areas, but doesnt seem to be the case. New mexicans as said before too are broader leafed and quick finish, sure yields improve sure crops are better but weed is totally different, lots of water and nutrients is required and even with this cant reach old potency and type of effects. The lose of best ancestral is been so negative, results tell us

 

[ngakpa]

yep, it's tragic really

so much great ganja lost in a load of homogenised polyhybrid slop

---

about the history of Colombian cannabis ---

some people think the history of cannabis in the region goes back to the first European conquests in the Americas, but I seriously doubt it

it seems very likely it arrived on the Caribbean coast of Colombia, probably on a large scale after the British ceased exporting cannabis to the Caribbean from India in the late 1930s

when that trade shut down, ganja production for the Caribbean market moved to Guyana, and presumably some arrived on Colombia's Caribbean coast too

add to that, anywhere where Indians moved, ganja tended to follow

the possibility that ganja has not been Colombia for more than about 70 or 80 years (it may be 150 years for all I know) does not detract from the value of its strains

70 generations has been more than enough time for the ganja there to develop unique regional characteristics

the cultivars there have an intrinsic value, and it will be tragic if they get lost

as Charlie attests, a lot of damage has already been done -

it's good to see that most people posting on here appreciate that

 

[Rinse]

It has been awhile since I posted in this thread, but my main point is this...
I have no idea what crop the natives were growing, do you? Perhaps their crop is a indigenous line, and perhaps it is not very productive...or at least the plant does not produce like other lines will. And suppose these native peoples have a consultant in to help them increase their yields, and produce a finer quality product?
Is it a bad thing to help these farmers with their horticultural needs? Even if it bursts the bubble of those who think all things should be left alone and as is?
Nature sure didn't intend things to be that way, and most especially cannabis.
If it were intended to stay the same no matter what, it would not have the magic it has and the ability to do what it does.

Now what is more important, the preconceived notions of a preservationist...even when the preservationist stands absolutely nothing to gain one way or the other...save for maybe their ego? Or the well being of the natives and their families?

I tend to opt to the side of the farmer and his family.

I am not defending the actions of AJ and his band of ass kissers. They have few clues as to what could help this farmer, they are only looking to help themselves.
Same with the firm stance preservationist...just how is his stance helping anyone? Has he done a good thing by helping keep a scrawny low yielding plant in the farmers field?
I dunno...is this a bit of arrogance? You tell me...

And let me throw one more issue out there..
Suppose the consultant does not introduce now genes into the lot? Suppose what he does is provide the farmer with a different method of farming...say like how to increase yields by cultivating sensimilla instead of his normal method of a full open pollination crop?
Do you think the line will stay the same as it is, or perhaps it would start seeing drifts just due to method used?
Oh, and just what line of cannabis has not been messed with and these so called "western genes" not been introduced? Are these western genes indigenous to the west?
Just where did they come from? Just where did a line like, let's say....Colombian gold bud? You think maybe it was indigenous to Colombia? Or perhaps it was introduced from other lands?
I am curious just what line has never been touched and is pristine as it has been?

Hello Baba Ku
The main problem I have with your post is that you think these western (indoor bred) strains will outperform the traditional ones, its laughable...
You also compare it to ancient lines like Colombian being introduced, thats not the same either.

Many western breeds are kind of bottlenecked in the cannabinoid dep. (missing cbd for eg...)
(I hope you know what the implications of that are^^)

Ask any outdoor esp guerilla grower, most indoor dutch lines flop big time outdoors.

What do you mean
"scrawny low yielding plant in the farmers field?"

Have you even seen a traditional cannabis cultivation area??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tEQI5n6mn8

You mention sinsemilla, but most big scale farmers (esp for hash) wont bother pulling out males because the field is too big to bother, and they actually need seeds for next year, if they were using greenhouse fems perhaps theyd have to buy new stock each year?
Or just have aload of hermies...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su2-ijE5snA

 

[ngakpa]

H
You mention sinsemilla, but most big scale farmers (esp for hash) wont bother pulling out males because the field is too big to bother, and they actually need seeds for next year
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su2-ijE5snA

that's not really true what you say about sensimilla, Rinse...

historically, and in the present day, there is plenty of large scale production of unseeded ganja... in Asia it is in places like India and Southeast Asia

in places like Thailand with large commercial grows, it is typically the job of the middle man to provide the farmer with the seeds

even the Ganja Mafia in Kerala take the time to pull all their males asap --- the most you should find even in commercial Kerala ganja is a couple of "elephant seeds"...

elephant seeds are big seeds from very early pollination of the females --- right next to them stems... the rest of the bud will have no seeds in it

---

about that Afghan cannabis field ---

I'm not sure if that was the strain they call "Mazar-i-Sharif" in Afghanistan

I say that, because in a well irrigated field like in that video, the Mazar-i-Sharif strain can go up to 6m tall --- you can pull 3.5 - 4 pounds of dry bud off one plant

so much for the spindly straggly low-yielding landraces!

this is a big Mazar-i-Sharif growing in Humboldt in the '70s - 5lbs of dry bud off this plant according to the grower - the buds are very dense

 

[charlie garcia]

In some fields in Mexico they can be throwing 3-5 kilograms of seeds per 6-7000 plants, they need the seed and do seed crops as well. There are even local farmers/breeders who care about lines or who breed for biggest narcos or for themselves or for selling the seeds to others and try to maintain or improve whatever line. Some others just farm whatever seed they hold...Anyhow even today, these months, its military and narco pressure overall which makes them forget about their older lines from the mountains, ones which goes to december-january for this new ones...3-4 months is enough to harvest their crops and run away quick before they get caught so not time for long lines, too much exposure to risk. Talked several times these days about the plants of red colors, red color weed or "mota canela" which was found often in Sinaloa in the past, nowdays is less present they say. And weed from Sinaloa started in the 60's, not that old. Even from a botanical point of view there is huge lost in richness of cannabis varieties, its a fact and I cant see yet how this change can be seen as beneficial.
best

 

[ElRubio]

Interesting post everyone!
Thank you for all the info...

historically, and in the present day, there is plenty of large scale production of unseeded ganja... in Asia it is in places like India and Southeast Asia
even the Ganja Mafia in Kerala take the time to pull all their males asap ---

In Nepal, this kind of cultivations are widely commons in remote and border areas.

removing the males:

[^_^]

 

[ngakpa]

yep, especially in the Terai regions of Nepal --- seed is mostly provided by Indian "Ganja Mafia"

nice photo!

 

[Baba Ku]

I am not considering clowns popping into a farmers program and spreading bullshit.
The concept I am talking about concerns helping the farmer.
And the help would be from someone that would be qualified to help improve the farmers crops. My God, folks...it happens all the time, and has throughout history.
It's what horticulture is all about, is it not?
AJ and his band of buffoons are hardly qualified to improve a commercial indigenous crop. They may be able to drive out some snappy names though...

OK, let's say that a landrace African strain only grown indigenous in a small area that is landlocked and pristine. The farmer who depends on this crop knows that some of his family in another village produce a much better crop and their, families live a bit better as a result.
Is it wrong for the farmers to incorporate some of their relatives genetics into their crop in hopes of improvement?
Or, perhaps they have a consultant that is not a clown and is out for their best interest? Perhaps this consultant decides to incorporate another landrace? Perhaps a line thqat is indigenous to another part of the world, but it's characteristics makes it a great candidate to do just what the farmer needs done?

Does anyone have the right, or even stand on firm ground, when they say this should not be done? In the interest of what...our own interpretation of what that line is?

Also...being into my second half century, I am pretty sure I speak from good experience here. And my experience tells me that we need to be very careful when we try to judge the buzz and specific effects of something we experienced many years or even decades ago. That is far too subjective of thing to say that the buzz you got then does not exist now. I have head that said many, many times over the years...but having never been out of the culture since the early 70's I can fairly confidently say is simply isn't true.
The chances of a particular line drifting away from what it was decades ago are very high...and how does anyone think it could even stay the same?

Could it be possible that the Panama Red that tore the top of your head off in '74 was the product of selective breeding...or were you getting bags of open pollinated landrace?
My money is on the former.

 

[Rinse]

Cheers for the correction ngakpa, nice mazar!

Baba ku, that scenario would not nearly be as bad,
The problem is more western breeds being introduced...
I find many of them esp when grown hydro are kinda like mcdonalds - tasty to many, but kinda synthetic.

The highs are way different now than in the 70's, well I wont even say 70's because I wasnt there, but outdoor landrace is many times more appealing to me in taste and stone than any hybrid in hydro...

 

[charlie garcia]

Hi baba ku, I think farmers have the right to look for their food the way they can, but still is debatible in a certain sense, that crossing with modern lines is best and only solution, you know and like you say so much hybridation is been done in the past but this is a delicate question today as much of ancestral genepool is got lost and we talk about bringing modern hybrids now instead. Extending argument at maximum we can arrive to conclusion that would say best we can do for farmers is sending western lines to breed with for improving their crops and increase their incomings. Wished there was a balance
best

 

[Baba Ku]

I really am not considering what sort of genes should be used, if any at all.
I am only suggesting that if an improvement to a farmers crop can be made by outcrossing to another genetic map, then there should be nothing wrong with that.
The crop belongs to the indigenous farmer and should be his to work or not work.

I totally understand the preservation of old strains stance....and that is not really what I am talking about. Maybe collect what the farmer used to grow and preserve it for ourselves?

I am no horticulturalist, nor genetic biologist...but I have a hard time thinking anyone with such qualifications would chose a hybrid to work into such a crop.
No, they would use something stable surely.

lol...and can folks tell me what "western genes" or "dutch genes" are? Perhaps you are meaning to say "hybrids"? I'm unaware of any Frisian genes.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

If a landrace or local variety is a pure Indica then Sativa genes will alter it for sure. Same with pure Sativas, do you really want them Kushed at their site of origin and maintenance?
You are being shortsighted to say the least.
As most Western genetics is nowadays a mix of Sativas and Indicas to take them to traditional Cannabis cultivation areas is a crime, both to the local growers and the gene-pool.
Also taking Indicas to tropical, humid, wet areas will not always help the growers, maybe it just make much bigger problems, like lack of mold resistance. The best intentioned gifts can have the most unintended results.
I suggest we all try and leave traditional areas of Cannabis cultivation alone and not introduce new genes to try and "help" them. They have more then they can deal with just being the caretakers of the local varieties. If you want to play with Cannabis genes use the results in places where it can do no harm, because their are no local landraces needing protection.
We are all just caretakers, what we do will effect all of the gene-pool, good or bad.
Lets not destroy all the work that took hundreds or even thousands of years of selection to create, just in a mistaken attempt to "help".
I like diversity, it is the way it should be.
We should all be glad that farmers did not take the advice of Mr. Baba Ku over the last hundred years, or we would only have hybrids today and nothing else.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

What about intersexed genes? What about introducing no mold resistant genes to areas that need them?
BTW the indigenous farmer is not the owner of the local gene-pool, he is the current caretaker, nothing more.
Collecting what he used to grow? His actions could change the local gene-pool that took thousands of farmers, thousands of years to create.
I am curious where they are going to get the "something stable" they are going to introduce?
And yes they are referring to multi-Hybrids, when they say Western genes.
Also BTW there are Frisian genes, old Dutch hemp genes from long ago, I have them...

-SamS

I really am not considering what sort of genes should be used, if any at all.
I am only suggesting that if an improvement to a farmers crop can be made by outcrossing to another genetic map, then there should be nothing wrong with that.
The crop belongs to the indigenous farmer and should be his to work or not work.

I totally understand the preservation of old strains stance....and that is not really what I am talking about. Maybe collect what the farmer used to grow and preserve it for ourselves?

I am no horticulturalist, nor genetic biologist...but I have a hard time thinking anyone with such qualifications would chose a hybrid to work into such a crop.
No, they would use something stable surely.

lol...and can folks tell me what "western genes" or "dutch genes" are? Perhaps you are meaning to say "hybrids"? I'm unaware of any Frisian genes.

 

[GreenLion]

Ahhhhh what do u know Sam? lol jkReally though spill the beans on those resin extraction techs already.

 

[elmanito]

Also BTW there are Frisian genes, old Dutch hemp genes from long ago, I have them...

-SamS

Do you have some more info about these Frysian genes????

Namaste

 

[Baba Ku]

Sam, it is really responsible for any of us to decide what is best for that farmer?
Even the most well intentioned preservationist really needs to butt out of such matters.

Who are we to decide what he needs or doesn't need? Should he only be beholding to our preconceived notions of what cannabis should or shouldn't be?
I am not talking about just coming along all johnny cannaseed and defouling farmers sativa crops with indica...lots of assumption to even think that.
That may be the direction AJ and his clowns may take...but that is not at all what I am talking about.

I am talking about a farmer asking for the help of a horticulturalist in producing a better crop. A crop that he can prosper better with than with what he currently grows.
I mentioned him using superior genes from his relatives crop in another village...is that also a crime against canna preservation?

And if the farmer asked you for your help...will you turn him down? And just what would you tell him is the reason he should keep his poor yielding crappy plants just as thy are?
Will he understand our preconceived notions? Will he understand that you feel he has no right to introduce new genes into the crop? Will he think your reasons are valid?
Do you?

Sometimes I think there is a fine line between reality, and our notions.
Other times I see a huge disparity.

*let me also ask this...is it a bad thing to introduce selective breeding to these farmers?
I mean, they can change the character of their crops by using such a technique. Is that also to be considered taboo within the preservationist crowd?

 

[DocLeaf]

Having sent seeds over to Jamaica ,, to Jamaican Allotmenteers that requested European genetics.. into areas that still cultivate landrace Jamaican varieties.. we didn't think we were acting irresponsibly at the time. Neither did they.

They still manage to cultivate and maintain their local lambsbread varieties in isolation in the region.

peace and flowers

 

[charlie garcia]

Sometimes is good to try and look further, maybe we can think about whats our generations heritage, what seeds are we leaving to new generations. Diversity is nature. I miss many great lines of the past, wished some more were available still. Hope we can learn from the past Baba Ku, thats all. Maybe is only common sense to try and pay attention to cannabis varieties and diversity in longer terms
best wishes everyone

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Sometimes the local farmer is blinded by his needs.
Lets turn this around, I am not asking what is best for one particular farmer, I am concerned about what is best for all farmers and the gene-pool.
Also if I am being told to butt out, what about your opinions, do you think you have any right to speak for the farmers?
And just to be sure I do understand you right, if the local farmer wants kilos and kilos of Greenhouse feminized Hybrid seeds you would see nothing wrong with that, it is all up to the local farmer?
Local farmers are just human, they make mistakes, and taking kilos of hybrid seeds to a center of Cannabis diversity where a local traditional variety is maintained is shortsighted to say the least.
If all you are doing is using local genes to selectively improve local varieties, more power to you.
But that is not the fear I have, or is it a real problem.
I just want to see the diversity we have now maintained, and not lost to waves of hybrids, that may yield a bit more, but have lost most of their individual uniqueness.
I can not imagine a world where all the Cannabis was Indica/Sativa hybrids, strong but maybe boring, boring, boring. All because a local farmer wanted more income, what a shame...
-SamS

Sam, it is really responsible for any of us to decide what is best for that farmer?
Even the most well intentioned preservationist really needs to butt out of such matters.

Who are we to decide what he needs or doesn't need? Should he only be beholding to our preconceived notions of what cannabis should or shouldn't be?
I am not talking about just coming along all johnny cannaseed and defouling farmers sativa crops with indica...lots of assumption to even think that.
That may be the direction AJ and his clowns may take...but that is not at all what I am talking about.

I am talking about a farmer asking for the help of a horticulturalist in producing a better crop. A crop that he can prosper better with than with what he currently grows.
I mentioned him using superior genes from his relatives crop in another village...is that also a crime against canna preservation?

And if the farmer asked you for your help...will you turn him down? And just what would you tell him is the reason he should keep his poor yielding crappy plants just as thy are?
Will he understand our preconceived notions? Will he understand that you feel he has no right to introduce new genes into the crop? Will he think your reasons are valid?
Do you?

Sometimes I think there is a fine line between reality, and our notions.
Other times I see a huge disparity.

*let me also ask this...is it a bad thing to introduce selective breeding to these farmers?
I mean, they can change the character of their crops by using such a technique. Is that also to be considered taboo within the preservationist crowd?