Slownickel Organic Grow 2017

[slownickel]

Yep,

Learn something every day! Apparently MOST calcium nitrate comes with ammonia! Just checked in with the head chemist at a big importer here....

Never knew there was ammonia in calcium nitrate! I need to go fix my calculator in my spread sheet now! Dam!

Thanks!

 

[MrBungle]

glad to help

 

[Space Case]

Told ya, haha. PureCal is the ritzy stuff that I can't get currently, which has most of the ammonia refined out of it. The Yara is the cheap shit here.

 

[LostTribe]

This is going to get heady quick!

 

[mapinguari]

Apparently a small light bulb for half an hour at night disrupts the dark cycle. I already have an experiment going on that one.

There was lots of experimentation (informal) on the old Growing Large Plants, Outdoors thread. People use contractor lights with low wattage, close to the plant.

Half an hour seems overkill. Five minutes or less should do it...one of the old grow guides showed a couple slow-walking some bright lights down rows of small dep plants to keep them in veg.

I don't have any experience with autoflowers.

And I'm curious to see what kind of limits you find in manipulating nitrate and ammonia n. I have never heard of doing this to make up for several hours' light deficiency, and it'll be groundbreaking if it works.

If you can operate a larger nursery as part of the setup you might consider dense plantings of a plant like Blue Dream, which will keep growing far into flower, and could be put out at a couple feet tall.

 

[plantingplants]

I think you missed these Qs from my earlier post so im just going to post them again:

You tested Si but you arent adding any? Happy with where it is or is it not economical?

Why are there nitrates in the desert?

Why are you putting lactobacillus and friends into your micro bricks? Is there some synergy there or is it just a way to time release it?

And a new one: how much control over flowering in a photoperiodic plant can you actually have? How long can they ignore the short days?

Edit: just saw Map's post above, and wanted to add that i experimented with small weak solar lights ($10 a pop retail) to delay flower but they didn't work. Definitely consider how many lumens theyll be getting. I have also heard someone's anecdote of growing in a backyard inthe suburbs and half of their plant flowering due to only one side being lit up by a street light.

 

[slownickel]

I think you missed these Qs from my earlier post so im just going to post them again.

You tested Si but you arent adding any? Happy with where it is or is it not economical?

Sent my source to the lab to find out how much is there. I am on it!!!

Why are there nitrates in the desert?

These are sediments of ocean layers. The ocean has been going down for years and left amazing nutrient levels in these soils. Given that it never rains, all these goodies are trapped in these soils! Amazing no? This is why hits productivity that no one on the planet can get in asparagus, citrus, etc... plus the sun at the equator!

Why are you putting lactobacillus and friends into your micro bricks? Is there some synergy there or is it just a way to time release it?

I think you misunderstood my post. Micro bricks mean micro elements not microbiology...

And a new one: how much control over flowering in a photoperiodic plant can you actually have? How long can they ignore the short days?

Edit: just saw Map's post above, and wanted to add that i experimented with small weak solar lights ($10 a pop retail) to delay flower but they didn't work. Definitely consider how many lumens theyll be getting. I have also heard someone's anecdote of growing in a backyard inthe suburbs and half of their plant flowering due to only one side being lit up by a street light.

Good point, I have been wondering the same. I am thinking along two lines, nitrate vs ammonia which works well to control veg/flowering all by itself and lights.

I agree with you, have to measure it. Just loaded an app on my cell that measure light intensity. Lux easy light meter.... need to start testing.

 

[Space Case]

I don't believe that the NH4:NO3 ratio will prevent them from flowering, but it may slow the process of transitioning into flower. I am speaking only from my hydro indoor experience, but feel that in that environment, I had very fine tuned control over nutrient solutions and light cycle. I generally only feed Calcium Nitrate as my only source of N through veg and most of flower. In veg, if my plants need more N, I will generally swap some potassium sulfate for potassium nitrate, or likewise with magnesium.

I have known about the nitrate/ammonia hormone signaling for a few years now, from a chemist buddy of mine. I have been giving small amounts of ammonium sulfate in early to mid flower and I have observed what seems to be plants rushing into flower slightly faster (by a few days). But not giving them NH4 hasn't inhibited flowering either.

As with many things, it is the change of ratio of the two different sources of nitrogen that supposedly trigger hormonal signals. Plants will establish a baseline ratio of ammonia to nitrate throughout the summer, and then a change in that baseline ratio is what will signal the coming autumn. NH4 is given off from the decomposition of falling leaves in the autumn.

I just think with cannabis, the plant is too smart and too photosensitive to just be tricked by those nitrogen ratios. I do believe it has some effect on speeding up and slowing down the flowering process, no idea how that impacts yields, but it is kind of telling the plant to hurry up, winter is coming...

 

[Space Case]

These are sediments of ocean layers. The ocean has been going down for years and left amazing nutrient levels in these soils. Given that it never rains, all these goodies are trapped in these soils! Amazing no?

Similar geologic conditions created our top soil here too. It used to be a sedimentary silty ocean floor that receded millions of years ago. An inland sea actually, now known as the Great Basin, of which only Salt Lake is left. I see similar levels of trapped nitrates in my top soil, lots of calcium carbonate, and luckily less sodium than yours.

 

[slownickel]

I don't believe that the NH4:NO3 ratio will prevent them from flowering, but it may slow the process of transitioning into flower. I am speaking only from my hydro indoor experience, but feel that in that environment, I had very fine tuned control over nutrient solutions and light cycle. I generally only feed Calcium Nitrate as my only source of N through veg and most of flower. In veg, if my plants need more N, I will generally swap some potassium sulfate for potassium nitrate, or likewise with magnesium.

I have known about the nitrate/ammonia hormone signaling for a few years now, from a chemist buddy of mine. I have been giving small amounts of ammonium sulfate in early to mid flower and I have observed what seems to be plants rushing into flower slightly faster (by a few days). But not giving them NH4 hasn't inhibited flowering either.

As with many things, it is the change of ratio of the two different sources of nitrogen that supposedly trigger hormonal signals. Plants will establish a baseline ratio of ammonia to nitrate throughout the summer, and then a change in that baseline ratio is what will signal the coming autumn. NH4 is given off from the decomposition of falling leaves in the autumn.

I just think with cannabis, the plant is too smart and too photosensitive to just be tricked by those nitrogen ratios. I do believe it has some effect on speeding up and slowing down the flowering process, no idea how that impacts yields, but it is kind of telling the plant to hurry up, winter is coming...

The argument is that ammonia is a cation, it competes with other cations. When you use ammonia, the plant can only pick up 2 Ca for every 2 K. When you use nitrate, the plant can pick up 4 Ca for every 2 K. So ammonia is the signal to mature up... nitrate is the signal to grow, regardless of where you are in the cycle.

 

[Space Case]

The argument is that ammonia is a cation, it competes with other cations. When you use ammonia, the plant can only pick up 2 Ca for every 2 K. When you use nitrate, the plant can pick up 4 Ca for every 2 K. So ammonia is the signal to mature up... nitrate is the signal to grow, regardless of where you are in the cycle.

For sure, totally understand. I just think the photo period has the dominating hormonal response in these plants. I wonder how the nitrogen cycle and nitrification fits into these signals also. If most of the NH4 is converted into NO3 before being taken up by the plant, the plant won't really get the same signaling, will it? Maybe it will notice more H+ and lower pH.

Either way, cannabis is evolved enough to know what time of day it is, and what time of year it is. I have never seed light deprivation flowers that didn't at least have an odd seed in em here and there, even from seasoned 20-30 year experienced growers. They know that you are tricking them, they can sense the angle of the sun and the gravitational pull of the moon, and that is where all their energy comes from and what they are tuned to, so to speak.

 

[who dat is]

Subbed as fuck

 

[slownickel]

For sure, totally understand. I just think the photo period has the dominating hormonal response in these plants. I wonder how the nitrogen cycle and nitrification fits into these signals also. If most of the NH4 is converted into NO3 before being taken up by the plant, the plant won't really get the same signaling, will it? Maybe it will notice more H+ and lower pH.

Either way, cannabis is evolved enough to know what time of day it is, and what time of year it is. I have never seed light deprivation flowers that didn't at least have an odd seed in em here and there, even from seasoned 20-30 year experienced growers. They know that you are tricking them, they can sense the angle of the sun and the gravitational pull of the moon, and that is where all their energy comes from and what they are tuned to, so to speak.

Ever hear about Cosmic pipelines? Saw them one time in a big farm...

http://www.quantumagriculture.com/node/4

 

[gorilla ganja]

Do you have limits on plant numbers slownickel ?

If not it is probably better for commercial purposes to have lager number of smaller plants anyway. Just let them flower when they are old enough.
I'm sure you have several experiments on the horizon. But I am fascinated by the nitrogen and how it affects flower onset.Of course I have the opposite problem from you. The long daylight hrs stop most strains from finishing here in the North.

When are you popping seeds?

Peace GG

 

[slownickel]

Do you have limits on plant numbers slownickel ?

If not it is probably better for commercial purposes to have lager number of smaller plants anyway. Just let them flower when they are old enough.
I'm sure you have several experiments on the horizon. But I am fascinated by the nitrogen and how it affects flower onset.Of course I have the opposite problem from you. The long daylight hrs stop most strains from finishing here in the North.

When are you popping seeds?

Peace GG

Yo GG,

The nitrogen flowering method works very well. You can induce flowering early if you back of your nitrates and use ammonia while keeping your P high. Organic N also induces flowering early...

From all the start up analysis I got to see from all these hybrid mixes, there is huge amounts of nitrate left over from the previous season! Plus, with high Mg, the soil will hold on to nitrate even longer.

Still working on the irrigation system and waiting for the news of this new bill....

 

[blkantha]

Slow,
I think you need post for folks to how to read or interpret m3 values and the index values for micros especially Mn or Cu . Any formula or reading material u have . It will be use full.

 

[LostTribe]

The argument is that ammonia is a cation, it competes with other cations. When you use ammonia, the plant can only pick up 2 Ca for every 2 K. When you use nitrate, the plant can pick up 4 Ca for every 2 K. So ammonia is the signal to mature up... nitrate is the signal to grow, regardless of where you are in the cycle.

I think I need to bust out my organic chemistry hat for viewing this thread!

Maybe need to bust out the text book too its been too long! Seems like growing is soil is becoming more difficult than Hydroponics! Just too many variables at least when you are working out a new recipe....

 

[Dankwolf]

Your not the only one breaking out the text books and old organic gardening books .i even have my osu master Gardner book out lol .its been about 7 years sence i last got some good reading in .

 

[stonedbuddha]

Thankfully all the textbook information is relevant still to me, but learning the expertise of growers with years of knowledge that outlive me is why I love IC mag and in general farmers.

 

[Avenger]

https://www.reference.com/science/difference-between-nh3-nh4-59462279986ac3b8