Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[slownickel]

That conversion to nitrate accelerates when you have a pH above neutral. What pH do you have in your soil Daddy?

 

[daddylonglegs]

Well as I stated I'm in containers and raised beds . I start in late May at about 7.2-7.4 Haven't re tested this year but in previous years , with decomposition and rainfall ... Left me mid to high 6s beginning of September

 

[daddylonglegs]

That's for both my base soil and my strongly amended bottom layer "super soil"

 

[slownickel]

Any idea of your water analysis?

Maybe it would just be easier to send in a soil analysis and stop guessing....

For those of us that are organic, soil analysis is much more important than for most. Our only chance is balance....

 

[daddylonglegs]

When is the point of overkill with the nitrates? If I was adding it with my calcium and kso4

 

[daddylonglegs]

Although it does seem I'll just have to do frequent testing until I find that balance

Thanks for input , I have a few new things to play with for a while .

 

[slownickel]

Nitrates allow for more calcium to be taken up. Ammonia since it is a cation, competes with Calcium. So the plant picks up less calcium, yet the same amount of potassium.

There are those of us that firmly believe that productivity and quality comes from Calcium uptake.

 

[slownickel]

The idea of a soil analysis is once a year for major elements. $30-35 or so. With that we can dial things in.

Then if you are worried about your N levels, send in for a N test only. $10 or so.

 

[blkantha]

If we are mixing manure with gypsum/ag lime will this make mixture to be alkaline in soil and help Ca uptake?
As stated ammonia in manure should be converted to NO3?

 

[slownickel]

Gypsum is a neutral pH, will not bring up nor down the pH.

Ag lime will raise the pH and theoretically allow the ammonia to be converted by biology (this depends greatly on the right biology being present). This biology works begins and works slowly at a pH of about 5.8 or so and as the pH is increased, the conversion is faster... up to a pH of about 7.5.

 

[rykus]

Thanks again slownickel,...


I'm still struggling a bit with the calcium sourcing a bit... Is the big draw back of calcium carbonate ,such as oyster shell flour, as a calcium source the slow breakdown, or is it just that it won't work long term in the soil because the way it breaks down?

If I use gypsum as my sole calcium source would it be better in container gardens to try to add a lot before planting or add on a weekly or by-weekly schedule? Will I build up excesses of sulfer in my soil if I take this approach long term(re using my medium)?

Is the calcium from bone meal or crab meal going to be good for my soil, or is that going to build up negative aspects as well?

Thanks again for the insight, been checking out some of those AG videos! Very cool stuff!

 

[slownickel]

Thanks again slownickel,...


I'm still struggling a bit with the calcium sourcing a bit... Is the big draw back of calcium carbonate ,such as oyster shell flour, as a calcium source the slow breakdown, or is it just that it won't work long term in the soil because the way it breaks down?

If I use gypsum as my sole calcium source would it be better in container gardens to try to add a lot before planting or add on a weekly or by-weekly schedule? Will I build up excesses of sulfur in my soil if I take this approach long term(re using my medium)?

Is the calcium from bone meal or crab meal going to be good for my soil, or is that going to build up negative aspects as well?

Thanks again for the insight, been checking out some of those AG videos! Very cool stuff!

RYKUS,

The problem with any of the carbonates is the soil water dynamic. This varies a bit depending on organic material and the quality there of. A good humic material will make a lot of calcium carbonate available the first year. A poor humic material will barely give you 15% availablility, especially if the size of the grind is not fine enough.

On the other hand, super fine applied in quantity, reacts too fast. Driving pH up way too high.

Gypsum is available immediately and penetrates down deep quick and has a neutral pH.

Yes, sulfur against your phosphorus needs to be gauged as they are both anions and compete with each other.

In terms of cost, gypsum cannot be beat.

One of the monster dynamics here is the water and the pH there of, quantity of carbonates/bicarbonates, etc... if you have driven your medium to alkaline and your water is alkaline, the possibility of getting calcium carbonates available is very remote. If you water has bicarbonates, every time you irrigate you rob the soil of soluble calcium and you make more carbonates, forget the idea of liberating much, not going to happen.

You have a short term crop. Carbonates, oyster shells, etc. are long term inputs. You need to add short term calcium supplies. Calcium nitrate, calcium lactate (milk), calcium sulfate and super triple or even super simple calcium phosphates (these have been acidified with sulfuric acid). All of which are readily available and most of which can be added on a regular basis. (The calcium phosphates should be applied in the mix, not applied superficially like the others...)

If you read earlier in this thread about the sequence of the agronomic plan for fertilization, I bring up Ca first, then push increasing quantities of K to maturity of the veg, then push Ca hard again for all those new roots that come out at flowering and then begin to push K up further as the bud matures.

All the while gauging my fert program against an established size of CEC. This is why I prefer a lower CEC that is manageable enough to move. A CEC of 12 to 16 easy to shift the CEC components, small enough to move and yet allows me to maintain my minimum level of Ca in the soil that is required but not so much that it makes it difficult to sway in either direction.

All those carbonates don't make a lot of problems for one if you analyze the soil correctly, which as you are seeing, folks aren't doing. They do add to your CEC though....

If you want to add all those type products get a fine grind and then mix them separately with the worm castings or compost and give them some time to be digested prior to mixing these inputs into your real mix.

 

[rykus]

Thanks you for going into that one a bit more!

Getting closer...

 

[blkantha]

Any thoughts on irrigation water carbonate/bicarbonates, Na, Chloride ppm level(range) that is ideal for field crops

 

[daddylonglegs]

So oyster shells in the mix pre composted , and apply other sources , such as gypsum as rules said ... Any other good ready available / short term calcium sources suitable for mid season top dress ?

 

[BrainSellz]

CEC in soils simplified. This was really helpful in understanding this further.

http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm

 

[slownickel]

CEC in soils simplified. This was really helpful in understanding this further.

http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm

Yes, this page by Astera out of Kinsey's book is very good, all accept for his numbers.

Those numbers won't work for an alkaline soil. The space of the Hydrogen (10%) will leave way to much space for sodium and more Mg (there is no H in an alkaline soil). I also can tell you that you don't need or want all that Mg in a soil full of organic material either. This is why there is a range of numbers, one must realize when one needs to use which side of those ranges. That is a formula for a clay in Missouri, and the guy that actually came up with those numbers (Albrecht) upon his retirement, later realized that the real number that one should aim for is 85% Ca, not 68%.

Plus using the single procedure method with all those carbonates will tell you that you have lots of calcium, when it is not true.

 

[daddylonglegs]

I've seen that before , good CEC read

 

[BrainSellz]

Yes, this page by Astera out of Kinsey's book is very good, all accept for his numbers.

Those numbers won't work for an alkaline soil. The space of the Hydrogen (10%) will leave way to much space for sodium and more Mg (there is no H in an alkaline soil). I also can tell you that you don't need or want all that Mg in a soil full of organic material either. This is why there is a range of numbers, one must realize when one needs to use which side of those ranges. That is a formula for a clay in Missouri, and the guy that actually came up with those numbers (Albrecht) upon his retirement, later realized that the real number that one should aim for is 85% Ca, not 68%.

Plus using the single procedure method with all those carbonates will tell you that you have lots of calcium, when it is not true.

Ok a great to know Slow. All this is new territory, however am slowly staring to real this understanding in...whew.

 

[slownickel]

Ok a great to know Slow. All this is new territory, however am slowly staring to real this understanding in...whew.

Numbers that are real and correctly calculated, understood and that make sense, are the only real tools that we have to really dial it in.

It is very real and highly probable that when one really dials it in precisely, that we can go where few have gone before.

All these guys in Ca, Maui etc... with 80% Ca soils are not magicians. They can be nearly the worst grower in the world and they will still come up ahead, why?

A Ca rich soil is rich in microbiology, air space and allows air to get down deep into the soil. A big part of the reaction to Ca is that Mg and Na get pushed out. Sort of like musical chairs, someone has no where to sit and gets pushed out. Those wonder yields and quality come from a good soil. And of course there are guys that can push it as a result, no doubt. But put that grower in a 50% Ca soil and watch what happens. Suicide.

1 Meq will push out 1 Meq, so 1 Meq of Ca, will push out 1 meq of the weakest bonded, most like Na and then K. Mg is the bitch that won't leave and in many cases is the biggest job we have. She is a fat slut that can't get through the door. It takes a lot of flocculation of soil/medium to get her out. If you need Mg really, use sulpomag (0-0-22-18 Mg). It is a mineral and won't react like mag sulfate or mag nitrate. Keep her tied up in that mineral form.

Watch that video in the beginning of this thread again. Listen to the message over and over. Mg is your enemy, not your friend. She is pretty and talks a nice story, but at the end of the day, she stabs you in the back.

If you see a Mg problem, 99% of the time it is because K and Na are high or you don't have enough P. How do you figure that one out without an analysis? You can't. Much less dial it in.

Applying foliar Mg sulfate or nitrate works fantastic and you will often see a clear response. Mg is very mobile in the plant, so if you really need it, the leaves will send it down to the roots. DO NOT APPLY Mg to the soil. Took me more than 20 years to figure that out. Carey Reams and Doc Tiedjens all explain this is their books. Unfortunately when I was young and stupid, I dismissed Reams immediately. Tiedjens I didn't find til several years ago.

Tiedjens was applying dosages of calcium like Cateripillar (1 lb/cubic foot of gypsum, plus bone meal, etc.). Tiedens applied upto 40 tons/acre of lime. I shudder at that idea knowing what the pH would go to. That is why you will keep hearing me repeating gypsum, gypsum, gypsum. You need to get numbers and then do trials. 1/2 dosis, single dosis, 1.5 dosis and double dosis. You choose what you like. That is your game plan.

Try it, you'll like it. Mikey liked it....