Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[daddylonglegs]

seems a large no till would have unlimited potential, the problem starts when packing many fruiting plants in same area ? The competition begins ?

 

[Slipnot]

Not quite sure how to maintain this calcium in a pot or bed ( without liquids) , besides top dress , but clearly need more , and consistently . But sure love the awareness

I was referring to man made or processed organic amendments such as bone meal, blood etc all these things were put into a machine ground up heated in a oven etc even tho its carbon based ..
what really is happening ?? is it natural ???
When any heavy machinery that works in the crushed rock or mineral business or dead animal business there machinery in time gets worn out faster then many think welders constantly building up lost metal on buckets and crushers fine metal shavings eventually end up in the product and we in turn put it in our soils, not knowing.
And most importantly the animals that were used ??? whats the chances they were fed GMO ??? my guess 98 percent they did

Its like being a person that is trying stop global warming but yet Drives a 8 mpg SUV

 

[Tonygreen]

Slip you ever consider getting into the bagged soil business?

 

[daddylonglegs]

Ok , I see your point more clear , i do use " amendments " after seasons , compost alone simply doesn't provide the necessary balance . I've dabbled in controlled compost . Where there's a sense of what your feeding your compost that's necessary for the garden . But what are you referring to then? On your hectares ? No liquids or amendments ? Compost only ?

Yes bone and blood and sea products etc go through processing to be available , pig blood , ya doubt it's organic . But even in a no till , your not simply planting outside , compost dress with worm castings made of leftovers then walk away?theres still a goal in mind of desired conditions ? Right ?

 

[daddylonglegs]

I do agree that processing should be minimal, to its possible extent. Not using leftover commercial products ground up and such . But the analogy of driving an suv for an "amendment soil grower " little extreme ? What's that make the liquid grower ? And what's your alternative slip ?? Trying to be conscious and very interested in your input ...

 

[slownickel]

Interesting! So I thought nitrate was good in flower as n source since it uptake extra K with it, but ammonia is good too because it helps with Mn uptake.

So would you say it's good to have them in equal ratio? Or are there a million other things to consider that I don't know about

PP,

Cannabis is a C3 plant (google it). That means it really is a weed.

Weeds like a solid 1:1 balance of nitrate:ammonia.

We know that ammonia can induce undetermined flowering sites into flowering sites.

We know that nitrates push Ca uptake vs ammonia. However, here pH can play a bad guy if your water has a lot of bicarbonates and over all alkalinity.

I would push nitrates up front, no flowering push at all, maximum Ca uptake, but at the same time I run a bit of ammonia. Say 2:1 nitrate:ammonia. If pH is an issue, maybe 1.2:1 To have less nitrate against the ammonia so as to have more acidity (ammonia is acid forming and a cation), nitrate is alkaline forming and is an anion.

When I want to start maturing up the plant, I take that ratio lower than 1:1 or even 0.8:1 That pushes more K uptake, slows down Ca uptake. At this point we begin flowering, push Ca and use aminos to maximize Ca uptake and protect the roots from any excess salts. A couple or three weeks into flowering, push the ratio to 0.6:1 nitrate:ammonia maybe even 0.7:1 this is a ratio that will have to be played with and experimented on different varieties for sure.

That is pretty much my strategy on C3 annuals. Should be about the same on cannabis.

 

[Huckster79]

I gues where im confused, i did watch the video, concept made sense but how do o take advice for regular ag farmers to a lil mmj indoor grow. Does this apply to me as a promix and solubale nutrients guy. Do i take sample of promix? Should i amend it first with calcium? Or is this more for true soil growing not promix and solubales run ?

 

[plantingplants]

Wow, mind blown at how dialed in you are. So I got that backwards then- nh4 increases K and no3 increases Ca.

So what does that actually look like as far as fertilizing goes? I don't know how crops are fertilized through the season. Are you just doing many soil tests checking the ratio and then adjusting with some CaNO3 to bump no3, for ex. Probably your milk at the end for your aminos? What do you use for ammonia in organic production?

 

[caterpillar710]

Wow, mind blown at how dialed in you are. So I got that backwards then- nh4 increases K and no3 increases Ca.

So what does that actually look like as far as fertilizing goes? I don't know how crops are fertilized through the season. Are you just doing many soil tests checking the ratio and then adjusting with some CaNO3 to bump no3, for ex. Probably your milk at the end for your aminos? What do you use for ammonia in organic production?

Probably fresh manure

 

[slownickel]

Wow, mind blown at how dialed in you are. So I got that backwards then- nh4 increases K and no3 increases Ca.

So what does that actually look like as far as fertilizing goes? I don't know how crops are fertilized through the season. Are you just doing many soil tests checking the ratio and then adjusting with some CaNO3 to bump no3, for ex. Probably your milk at the end for your aminos? What do you use for ammonia in organic production?

PP,

I make up a program BY DAY in excel, to the side I have a Nitrate and Ammonia calculator where I sum up the inputs per day, week and then month, so I make sure my ratios are correct.

If you are trying to do this organically, that is a much different monster. We don't really have an organic nitrate source other than Chilean Nitrate which is SODIUM nitrate, not good.

The strategy for organic is a bit different and we don't have the control that synthetics gives us. All organic nitrogen signals the plant to flower, just like ammonia.

I use an amazing fish amino acid that is made here in Peru, where they take out the sodium and push the amino acids up to 68% which is about 12.2% N. And yes, we use milk too.

What gives more control over flowering is organic cytokinins, which is a growth hormone.

I only run one soil test a year. Things don't change that much. I do run foliars pretty often though to fill in the gaps.

One needs to be measuring EC, I have a great German EC meter with a metal probe that goes into the soil. Instant numbers. I used the Hanna but they break way too easy and in general are a terrible brand.

 

[jidoka]

What brand is that EC meter...I broke my Hanna.

My favorite Microbeman quote..".the carbonic acids described are organic acids, of which there are many-many types, which are excreted/created by bacteria, archaea, fungi and plants.

(One might say hypothetically) The real beauty of this system is that the plant creates certain carbon molecules which feed specific bacterial/archaeal species which excrete (exudate) specific organic acids which release (trade for) specific and required (by the plant) nutrients.

The further genius and economics to this system is that specific species of flagellates and/or naked amoebae multiply in response to the bacterial/archaeal population to feed on them but as noted by Michael (et moi) in another thread, they utilize only a small portion of the specific nutrient while excreting the larger percentage as bio-available [ionic] to the roots. (e.g. avg, 30% - 70% respectively). "

NO3 and NH4 both require the plant to use a lot of carbon to form protein. Better, imo, to let the microbes attach the carbon before it gets in the plant. Better yet associative diazotrophs. If you overuse NO3 or NH4 you shut those pathways down.

 

[plantingplants]

Nickel, so what does your fertilizing look like? You compute it daily so you're feeding/watering daily? How do you decide what to fertigate?

If I seem confused it's because I am

 

[slownickel]

Cool reference to PGA, golf greens are my hobby , PGA have tons of good books and papers published, ( and the money for research) if only they would figure it out organically, they are the " masters " of liquid fix its....

Slownick- thanks for expressing calcium concern , on a few different facets at that . I use raised beds and pots , not acres , but still very useful on how to keep the structure maintained , very grateful can't wait to hear from more of your experiences ....

Daddylegs,

This is not that hard to do organically, in fact, the "fixes" are organic. My farms are all certified organic, avocado, seedless limes, turmeric, basil and oregano (haha the real stuff).

What we are discussing I do organically all day long. Not with your crop. But with many other C3 crops (cannabis is a C3).

It might seem like brain surgery, but it really isn't.

Even if you make the best organic mix, the organics start breaking down and you end up with textural collapse, ALWAYS. Regardless if you are in sand, medium, hybrid mixes, etc... In some cases it takes time, in other cases it is quite rapid. The more Mg applied, the faster it happens.

Biology in the soil is something that happens if you are a good steward of the soil. Ideally you want to see more and more biology down deeper and deeper. How can one "see" biology? With your nose. You grab the medium/soil at different depths and smell. That earthy smell comes from microbiology. If it smells like nothing, you have little microbiology, it it smells nasty, no air and you have anaerobic microbiology.

 

[chris harris]

Been subscribed for awhile now, awesome thread. Thanks for sharing.

 

[daddylonglegs]

Oh cool, that your organic. So your expressing as the soil is top dressed and layered , staying mindful of that balance that's constantly being laid down ( as it build in to the ground )? So you continually top dress , with constant calcium as compost is layered to hinder the binding and to also keep beefing up the calcium as it is a catalyst for K and "bloom boosting".

SN- in your opinion or experiences , in a hand built " super soil" , what are greatest concerns ? Not enough root space depth for continued biology in soil? Collapse of compost CEC and structure ? Or not enough nutrients available at proper times? All I can really come up with is top dressing amendments calcium dominant ( like oyster shell ) and langbeinite (0-0-22) for additional k ( and sulfur and magnesium) through summer . On my vegetables and "c3"

Are you testing soil all summer long for analysis on how to feed?

 

[daddylonglegs]

I see you only test once a year, and your able to determine where to go from there ,Still a bit fuzzy on the no3 nh4 bit.

 

[daddylonglegs]

I top dress the kso4 ( langbeinite )but no kno3, what's being inhibited by not adding the nitrate ?

 

[slownickel]

I top dress the kso4 ( langbeinite )but no kno3, what's being inhibited by not adding the nitrate ?

Daddy,

The ability to balance between nitrate and ammonia is lost in organics. Realize that biology in an alkaline soil, convert nitrates to ammonia.

This makes it a bit easier to pick up calcium. The reason is that ammonia is a cation and competes with the other cations including calcium.

Organic nitrogen is a different animal, always cationic (meaning it will compete with calcium). It one however raises the pH of your manure source, the microbes will make nitrate. One of the games I play in the field. That and the use of citric acid to go the other direction as well, or an acid manure from the Sierras, which is my newest tool in my tool bag.

This is what I do on my farm so as to minimize the cationic response and get the nitrogen in more of a nitrate form.

Never measured it, I should.

I move my potassium up and down over the season to accomplish my objectives.

Good questions...

 

[blkantha]

Immediately after harvest during veg stage for perennials push is for both K and Ca how you alter?
Is it like feed in npk and add up gypsum alternately?

 

[daddylonglegs]

Interesting , well if I have my nitrogen in cation form in soil ( through amendments ) , is the balance playable with a nitrogen fixing bacteria converting nh3 to no2, then from no2 on to no3 in my soils?