H
Huckster79
Is thete a 101 thread on this topic. Sounds very intiguing but felt like a 4th grader in algebra class... even starting at first page
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Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation
- Thread starter slownickel
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Huck,
Go watch that video posted in the very beginning of this thread on youtube and then go look at the soil analysis posted on this page
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=326705&page=67
We are talking about the bases in the soil, the elements Ca, Mg, K, Mg and H. Sometimes some of the metals are included, but we will just stick to these during the conversation.
A soil has the ability to hold only so many of these bases, that capacity is known as the cation exchange capacity..... within those bases, we are discussing how much of each one.
Then go download the analysis posted by lightweight on this page https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=289990&page=200
There you will see an amazing soil in Maui.
Many believe in going to only 68% Ca, some of us talk about 85% Ca. Watch the video a couple of times.
Ask questions, no problem.
Go watch that video posted in the very beginning of this thread on youtube and then go look at the soil analysis posted on this page
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=326705&page=67
We are talking about the bases in the soil, the elements Ca, Mg, K, Mg and H. Sometimes some of the metals are included, but we will just stick to these during the conversation.
A soil has the ability to hold only so many of these bases, that capacity is known as the cation exchange capacity..... within those bases, we are discussing how much of each one.
Then go download the analysis posted by lightweight on this page https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=289990&page=200
There you will see an amazing soil in Maui.
Many believe in going to only 68% Ca, some of us talk about 85% Ca. Watch the video a couple of times.
Ask questions, no problem.
I want to discuss irrigation more, but maybe we should make a different thread.
Top,
That is a tough call, given those are monsters, they will eat like monsters. No clue of what you have been up to.
I would say getting all that energy up to the top of the plant is going to be a tough order to fill everything out. Calcium comes to mind, so does phosphorus.
Give us a quick run through of what you have been up to?
Slow- hey man, sorry if this is off topic but I was curious your thoughts on manure.
I got a neighbor who was telling me I should top dress with horse manure..
Thoughts?
Not trying to derail the thread, you can pm me if that's easier.
I got a neighbor who was telling me I should top dress with horse manure..
Thoughts?
Not trying to derail the thread, you can pm me if that's easier.
Top dressing with manure, never done it in cannabis, which is a C3 plant. C4 plants like citrus, love fresh manure, but in small quantities.
It isn't so much the nutrient value that makes manure topdressing beneficial, it is the metabolites of the bacteria that break down the manure that makes manure so valuable.
Those metabolites allow the plant to become much more resistant to disease and insects.
Also, the ammonia in fresh manure helps to get manganese into the plant VS nitrates, which block the uptake of manganese. This is why so many organic growers have a big problem with manganese, they all try to use compost.
Be real careful, manures are very hot and many are full of salts. If you have enough calcium, a light sprinkling several times over the season can be pretty amazing.
In my lime trees, we mix a whole sack (about 75 LBS) into a 60x60x80 cm hole thoroughly mixed with the soil and plant into that after one heavy irrigation. The trees love it and grow so much faster compared to compost.
It isn't so much the nutrient value that makes manure topdressing beneficial, it is the metabolites of the bacteria that break down the manure that makes manure so valuable.
Those metabolites allow the plant to become much more resistant to disease and insects.
Also, the ammonia in fresh manure helps to get manganese into the plant VS nitrates, which block the uptake of manganese. This is why so many organic growers have a big problem with manganese, they all try to use compost.
Be real careful, manures are very hot and many are full of salts. If you have enough calcium, a light sprinkling several times over the season can be pretty amazing.
In my lime trees, we mix a whole sack (about 75 LBS) into a 60x60x80 cm hole thoroughly mixed with the soil and plant into that after one heavy irrigation. The trees love it and grow so much faster compared to compost.
Hi slownickel, most growers are using a heavy peat moss based mix, usually peat, perlite, vermiculite, compost/minerals. An issue ive run into that ive shared in the past is the labs estimating cec. Here's a previous post:
A heavy peat based mix should or could be in the 100 - 200 range from what Ive read, is this not correct or what are your thoughts?
https://www.extension.uidaho.edu/nursery/Landscape problems/Substrate/CEC and CN ratio.PDF
edit fixed links.
A heavy peat based mix should or could be in the 100 - 200 range from what Ive read, is this not correct or what are your thoughts?
https://www.extension.uidaho.edu/nursery/Landscape problems/Substrate/CEC and CN ratio.PDF
edit fixed links.
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Thanks for the information
Sure seems like one of those professors that is trying to recreate the wheel.
We have a bunch of guys running M3 who have now started running M3 and [email protected]. The correlation between growth and their base distributions is actually pretty incredible. All those with good Ca levels are doing amazing. Those that have high Mg, and more Na than K, are all responding to fixing what looks to be missing, Ca.
It is imperative that folks do their own trials.
Prior, due to the OVER not under estimation as the profe would tell us, everyone thought they were drowning in Calcium. They were not. Calcium was way over estimated.
Once folks add compost, worm castings and a bunch of woo woo
juice to their mediums, these mediums take on interesting chemistries all their own.If there is more to the picture than we are seeing in these current methods and we can see clearly what happens when we start dialing things in with what we have, I am not sure what I can get from what this profe is preaching. If there is so much more CEC, what does that mean to Ca? K? Mg? Na? H?? Metals???
I couldn't open that first article. Could you send me the whole URL?
Profe would have to show me some serious data to catch my ear.
Well I did a read through, the video really helped give me the foundation of things to think about.
I seem to fall into the category of those who may be chasing their tail.
Planning a winter indoor grow. Here is the soil "recipe"... with a ph of 7.4 out of the tap..
I have experienced many of the things you have talked about. So slowly the picture becomes more clear... I find myself chasing calcium by foliar feeding cal mag.
Generally growing in 2-3 cubic foot containers and vegging 30-40 days... I never compost this mix just plant straight into it. I also have never phed my water. After my first complete fail in many years my last run I finally bought a meter. I had been using the same soil recycling it for a couple years and dumping tons of epsoms on to combat what I thought were deficiencies and finally switching to salt fertlizers, which i now understand made everything worse.. Finally hit rock bottom and the collapsed from various aspects of my mismanagement. All the while my yields slowly shrank. In the beginning the mix performed good it seemed... I guess that first and 2nd runs usually went ok because I veg so long and some calcium and potassium starts to become available when flower starts, subsequent runs start falling apart more and more slowly over time.
18 cubic feet of bagged store bought soil: Tap ph 7.4
9 pounds dolomite lime
9 pounds bone meal
3 pounds blood meal
4 pounds kelp meal
90 pounds EWC
3 cubic feet of perlite
As you can see I have been doing just what you described...
Since I don't have a grow going atm and tons of time on my hands I am off to rethink my life... And do alot of reading... Wow. What an eye opener. I don't even know where to begin ha. I guess a soil test of my bagged dirt before amending anything...
Thanks slow.
I seem to fall into the category of those who may be chasing their tail.
Planning a winter indoor grow. Here is the soil "recipe"... with a ph of 7.4 out of the tap..
I have experienced many of the things you have talked about. So slowly the picture becomes more clear... I find myself chasing calcium by foliar feeding cal mag.
Generally growing in 2-3 cubic foot containers and vegging 30-40 days... I never compost this mix just plant straight into it. I also have never phed my water. After my first complete fail in many years my last run I finally bought a meter. I had been using the same soil recycling it for a couple years and dumping tons of epsoms on to combat what I thought were deficiencies and finally switching to salt fertlizers, which i now understand made everything worse.. Finally hit rock bottom and the collapsed from various aspects of my mismanagement. All the while my yields slowly shrank. In the beginning the mix performed good it seemed... I guess that first and 2nd runs usually went ok because I veg so long and some calcium and potassium starts to become available when flower starts, subsequent runs start falling apart more and more slowly over time.
18 cubic feet of bagged store bought soil: Tap ph 7.4
9 pounds dolomite lime
9 pounds bone meal
3 pounds blood meal
4 pounds kelp meal
90 pounds EWC
3 cubic feet of perlite
As you can see I have been doing just what you described...
Since I don't have a grow going atm and tons of time on my hands I am off to rethink my life... And do alot of reading... Wow. What an eye opener. I don't even know where to begin ha. I guess a soil test of my bagged dirt before amending anything...
Thanks slow.
Tony,
Don't feel too bad. I know very large farmers, thousands of acres, and they fell into the same trap as you.
Stick with it, you will be surprised how fast you can go once you learn the rules!
here is a link to the research that the USGA references in the Whitlark article that slownickel is so fond of.
http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2772&context=rtd
http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2772&context=rtd
Recommended Methods for Determining
Soil Cation Exchange Capacity
http://s3.amazonaws.com/udextension/lawngarden/files/2012/10/CHAP9.pdf
Soil Cation Exchange Capacity
http://s3.amazonaws.com/udextension/lawngarden/files/2012/10/CHAP9.pdf
Read that last URL. They are discussing washed out soils in the northeast US.
Nothing new there, very old in fact.
What was important there was the fact that the author recognized the importance of separating soil analysis types so as to NOT over estimate the CEC.
The sum concepts using the [email protected] vs M3 to establish a modified CEC is what I do. You won't find that in any article. It is however, what I do.
The [email protected] reports back almost identical K, sometimes less Mg and always much less Ca, this way I avoid all the mistakes that were warned of in that Chapter 9.
Nothing new there, very old in fact.
What was important there was the fact that the author recognized the importance of separating soil analysis types so as to NOT over estimate the CEC.
The sum concepts using the [email protected] vs M3 to establish a modified CEC is what I do. You won't find that in any article. It is however, what I do.
The [email protected] reports back almost identical K, sometimes less Mg and always much less Ca, this way I avoid all the mistakes that were warned of in that Chapter 9.
D
daddylonglegs
Cool reference to PGA, golf greens are my hobby , PGA have tons of good books and papers published, ( and the money for research) if only they would figure it out organically, they are the " masters " of liquid fix its....
Slownick- thanks for expressing calcium concern , on a few different facets at that . I use raised beds and pots , not acres , but still very useful on how to keep the structure maintained , very grateful can't wait to hear from more of your experiences ....
Slownick- thanks for expressing calcium concern , on a few different facets at that . I use raised beds and pots , not acres , but still very useful on how to keep the structure maintained , very grateful can't wait to hear from more of your experiences ....
plantingplants
Active member
Interesting! So I thought nitrate was good in flower as n source since it uptake extra K with it, but ammonia is good too because it helps with Mn uptake.
So would you say it's good to have them in equal ratio? Or are there a million other things to consider that I don't know about
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J
Johnny Redthumb
So would you say it's good to have them in equal ratio? Or are there a million other things to consider that I don't know about
Not sure what slow is gonna say, but I pretty much cut out all nitrate in flower if I can. I try to use aminos or ammonium sulfate in flower if I need N. If I need more Ca, I might give em some calcium nitrate in flower, but I wouldn't continue using a nitrate compound in flower, personally. And NH4 in small doses because it is also a cation.
Also, slow reminded me recently of something my old chemist buddy used to talk about, with the NO3:NH4 ratio and the hormone signaling that occurs.
I am a large farmer not with thousands of acres but thousands of hectaresTony,
Don't feel too bad. I know very large farmers, thousands of acres, and they fell into the same trap as you.
Stick with it, you will be surprised how fast you can go once you learn the rules!
I let the pro's determine the analysis and feeding requirements Your info is great but, today's era is all about feeding microbes, Teas etc etc, molasses, the No till method etc etc
The organic craze reminds me of them kids going nuts over
Justin Beiber
were spending to much time trying to understand something that is literally NEW to science and changing constantly Soil biology, Carbon cycle Because its alive we can test till the cows come home an think this theory is correct but as in climate change drop or raise temps in soil or what ever and its a different ball game
But that i science for you its never FACT its a simple understanding of what occured,
etc
Soil tests are great its better to know your starting point then to blindly go adding calcium, phosphate etc not knowing the properties of the soil . with man made materials and machinery
With that said with so many properties in a variety of soil in the world its going to be trial n error meanwhile slowly building our soils.
On closing note instead of making things easier,, for some reason people just like going about things the hard way.
Dunno that is what i see today i do not even bother with adding store bought amendments i have 7 worm farms and millions of worms and eggs decent compost bin using up scraps around the farm straws leaf etc and home etc
That is what i think, growers need to do. There to busy worrying about adding lime and other store bought ingredients,, or percentages there of.
Spending to much time with that then actual growing and reading the plants needs although knowledge and some basic understanding is good ..
Its always a rush rush rush.... when making a soil When it can be much more rewarding and hassle free of not worrying about it letting mother nature take care of it
and with that ph stable
D
daddylonglegs
Good points slip knot , yes no till! yes build soil that has integrity . Soil analysis and understanding of the reactions In a soil help to understand what's going on , Not a fan of machinery and man made solutions Ina bottle , they are band aids in my opinion like western medecine ( for most part ).
D
daddylonglegs
Not quite sure how to maintain this calcium in a pot or bed ( without liquids) , besides top dress , but clearly need more , and consistently . But sure love the awareness
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