Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[brown_thumb]

I don't know why any one would make a mound on top of some native soil without first breaking up the native with a rototiller AT LEAST. If a guy wanted to be pro he could put some gypsum and compost too

Native soil is often a type that drains extremely well. My soil is mostly sand, so all I need to do is build a 2 foot tall (60cm) raised bed above ground and add a steel mesh underneath to block moles from digging up to the plants. If you're speaking strictly nutrients, I'll be building mine tall enough that it won't matter. I know whatever I put in the soil below the box will be washed way with watering and rain. So whatever amendments I add to the base sand is mostly wasted.

 

[caterpillar710]

Pretty sure native soil is of whatever type the area has, like here in NorCal we have a clay soil you can literally use to wall up a pond

 

[brown_thumb]

When I lived a few miles north my soil had lots of clay so I would've had to add drainage at the base of a raised bed. Otherwise, I'd rot the roots of all cannabis plants. Here, It's a non-issue. So yes, it depends on where one lives.

 

[jidoka]

Native soil is often a type that drains extremely well. My soil is mostly sand, so all I need to do is build a 2 foot tall (60cm) raised bed above ground and add a steel mesh underneath to block moles from digging up to the plants. If you're speaking strictly nutrients, I'll be building mine tall enough that it won't matter. I know whatever I put in the soil below the box will be washed way with watering and rain. So whatever amendments I add to the base sand is mostly wasted.

The problem with sand will be your roots coming out of high cec organic soil. When the root tips hit the "low battery" soil what happens? You could end up chasing your tail for a while. Because of my high salt native soil that tends to fry root tips I choose to stay in pots v mounds.

 

[plantingplants]

Hazy-- there is some river loam around me for $26/yd and he said it comes from Jackson. (Mizer lmk if you want the name). I'll post the soil analysis. You might be able to find it down there. I plan on trying some topsoil mixes with that loam but def not gonna bet the farm on it. Orechron mentioned using 90% TS 10% peat and no aeration, outdoors.

I have a test running now. I heavily gyped my homogenized mound soil and it knocked mg from 25 to 11% and ca up to 85%. I'm heavily irrigating it now to see how it moves and then I'll add some K to hit 4%.


I like the idea of tilling under pots and dumping some compost and gypsum in. My red clay drains well but alkaline and high in Mg.

 

[brown_thumb]

The problem with sand will be your roots coming out of high cec organic soil. When the root tips hit the "low battery" soil what happens? You could end up chasing your tail for a while. Because of my high salt native soil that tends to fry root tips I choose to stay in pots v mounds.

Will the roots grow deeper than 24 inches (60cm)?

 

[Shcrews]

I don't know why any one would make a mound on top of some native soil without first breaking up the native with a rototiller AT LEAST. If a guy wanted to be pro he could put some gypsum and compost too

i made all my mounds without doing that stuff. kind of regret it though. i might add a few mounds this year, thanks for the info. I think i recall you saying the same thing in the large plants thread a while back, idk why i didnt listen then. How much gypsum and compost should i till into native red clay soil before putting a mound on top?

 

[Space Case]

I don't know why any one would make a mound on top of some native soil without first breaking up the native with a rototiller AT LEAST. If a guy wanted to be pro he could put some gypsum and compost too

Pretty sure native soil is of whatever type the area has, like here in NorCal we have a clay soil you can literally use to wall up a pond

The problem with sand will be your roots coming out of high cec organic soil. When the root tips hit the "low battery" soil what happens? You could end up chasing your tail for a while. Because of my high salt native soil that tends to fry root tips I choose to stay in pots v mounds.

Adobe mud out here! Native Americans literally built houses out of this. ~30% Mg, 5% Na. Part of the reason those clay beds raged last year, I'm sure, is the 100lbs or so of gypsum and de-rocking I did below the raised beds. Hell, I plan on doing one greenhouse this year with just amended native soil!

 

[TnTLabs]

Nope, but always think about it. I feed my worms chicken mash, which is very high in Ca as well. Good question.


Who is starting on their soil mixes? I finally found a decent top soil mix I might be using. Only 40$ a yard, (which is high for top soil) compared to 150$ a yard for peat. Taking my 100 or so yards from last season and cutting it with top soil and then building it back up with sulfates. Really trying to dial in 80+% Ca.

going to give it a shot.. not much that can go wrong id think
im only adding 100 grams to 132 Gallons of Soil...

 

[paradoxlost]

I don't know why any one would make a mound on top of some native soil without first breaking up the native with a rototiller AT LEAST. If a guy wanted to be pro he could put some gypsum and compost too

never rototill a soil ever. it breaks up the fungal and bacterial community that has established there. the only time you should break soil up is if there is a root restricting layer like a fragipan or caliche.

 

[caterpillar710]

Do you even grow?

Native clay soil is a root restricting layer in and of itself. So dense! Like I said you can dig a hole here and it will hold water because the clay is almost impenetrable. Breaking it up and adding some gypsum and compost definitely brings life to the soil. Theres often little fungal or bacterial activity in the clay because the o2 is low from it being so dense.

 

[jidoka]

Plus I will say it...fuck no till

 

[HillMizer]

never rototill a soil ever. it breaks up the fungal and bacterial community that has established there. the only time you should break soil up is if there is a root restricting layer like a fragipan or caliche.

Man. I'd love to know what's living in this serpentine iron clay that's better than what I can grow in a week with some actual food sources, oxygen and maybe a little inoculant. I been on that Elaine Ingham shiz for 10 years. At some point ya gotta get real.

 

[blkantha]

Hi Slow,

What happened no replies or new inputs?
Any new place you are writing?

 

[plantingplants]

I find all the variation in nor cal clay interesting. Does anyome have any soil tests to post of theirs? I'll post mine up. This rain is making my internet terrible.

Blkantha, I believe he is still traveling atm.

 

[reppin2c]

Id go no till and eat ramen all winter. Big tiller on a tractor for me early spring and then after structure is right...Ill have that OD smile

 

[maxmurder]

I find all the variation in nor cal clay interesting. Does anyome have any soil tests to post of theirs? I'll post mine up. .

i'm sending in a bunch of soilless samples this week so i'll go ahead and test mine too- should be interesting. i'm using logan tho.

 

[plantingplants]

Max, if you can send an extra sample in for science, find some clay under something like a piece of inert material like a cement block where you can see worms going in and out of. Almost like clay worm castings. Send that in too. I sent it in and saw significant and interesting differences. Ill post results soon. I'm going to try planting in it.

 

[Space Case]

I have Spectrum tests of my native soil, but I'm not in Cali.

I will also second (or third) the "fuck no till" sentiment! How do motherfuckers get any kind of wet/dry cycle on that shit? Geopots or cloth beds in a grow tent with a mix of mostly compost. Yea, plant look lush from all that K and N, but the stems are weak and hollow, and the nugs never swell. You never have to fertilize because you have 4 years worth of P and K in that kind of a soil! No till is a religion, and this thread is about science.

You should see the no till farms they are doing in Brazil's freshly deforested Amazon rainforest! Pump em full of pesticides and ammonium nitrate and let em die in the field the first two years to build OM in the soil. No till means nothing to yield or quality, it just means you are cheap or lazy.

Anyway, back to clay. Western native clay top soils are not true top soils, they are sun-baked mineral subsoils. If you want ANY root penetration into it, or attempt to liberate those trapped minerals, you are gonna have to till, plow, subsoil, or smash that ground up somehow. You will only kill microbes if you let that freshly tilled soil dry out. You can cover it with hay or some kind of OM immediately after tilling if ya wanna be a stickler. But with my clay native top soil being about 2% OM, over 30% Mg, and no visible "living top soil" strata...I'd say I'm not killing anything.

Now once I break it up, balance minerals, innoculate, and build OM...then I probably won't till. But you should see the abuse I put the amended clay mix through, all sorts of nitrates, phosphates, and heavy metals, tilling, digging, walking on it, urinating on it, calling it names, massaging it and manhandling it when its wet. And that fungal hyphae just wouldn't die, just like my wife!

 

[paradoxlost]

I have Spectrum tests of my native soil, but I'm not in Cali.

I will also second (or third) the "fuck no till" sentiment! How do motherfuckers get any kind of wet/dry cycle on that shit? Geopots or cloth beds in a grow tent with a mix of mostly compost. Yea, plant look lush from all that K and N, but the stems are weak and hollow, and the nugs never swell. You never have to fertilize because you have 4 years worth of P and K in that kind of a soil! No till is a religion, and this thread is about science.

You should see the no till farms they are doing in Brazil's freshly deforested Amazon rainforest! Pump em full of pesticides and ammonium nitrate and let em die in the field the first two years to build OM in the soil. No till means nothing to yield or quality, it just means you are cheap or lazy.

Anyway, back to clay. Western native clay top soils are not true top soils, they are sun-baked mineral subsoils. If you want ANY root penetration into it, or attempt to liberate those trapped minerals, you are gonna have to till, plow, subsoil, or smash that ground up somehow. You will only kill microbes if you let that freshly tilled soil dry out. You can cover it with hay or some kind of OM immediately after tilling if ya wanna be a stickler. But with my clay native top soil being about 2% OM, over 30% Mg, and no visible "living top soil" strata...I'd say I'm not killing anything.

Now once I break it up, balance minerals, innoculate, and build OM...then I probably won't till. But you should see the abuse I put the amended clay mix through, all sorts of nitrates, phosphates, and heavy metals, tilling, digging, walking on it, urinating on it, calling it names, massaging it and manhandling it when its wet. And that fungal hyphae just wouldn't die, just like my wife!

I wouldnt look to modern brazil for how to grow but more how not to. also the oxisols of brazil are some of the most nutrient void soils in the world. you have to build them up.

now I guess it doesnt matter if your growing in pots but if youre outdoors no till reduces erosion and nutrient runoff. that is science.

also by planting cover crops, which goes hand in hand with no till, why wouldn't you plant legumes? this, at least in food agriculture, means you can only worry about fertilizing with phosphorus for longer perioda of time.

look to the Potomac river watershed and learn the lessons learned there. organic no till farming brought/is bringing the Potomac back to life.

I havent seen everyone succeed with notill but the best product, food or weed, will be from organic no till.