Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[paradoxlost]

for example.

 

[paradoxlost]

So how are you getting the Ca in the soil?

What you are talking about is real AG. Us stoners are putting pots or mounds on native soil. Two very different things, that will soon merge. So I am all ears on how you would approach things, however understand the largest amount we are allowed to grow here in cali, and only in certain parts of the state, is 20,000 sq ft, or about half an acre.

If compaction from clay is a problem plant a crop like radishes or potatoes or something with bulbous roots that can break clay layers first. This should break up a root restricting layer.

Than I would add Ca sulfate carbonate and phosphate from organic sources as a top dress the next season and water it in.

 

[Space Case]

If compaction from clay is a problem plant a crop like radishes or potatoes or something with bulbous roots that can break clay layers first. This should break up a root restricting layer.

Than I would add Ca sulfate carbonate and phosphate from organic sources as a top dress the next season and water it in.

It all depends on where you are. If you are in a rainy coastal region, erosion is an issue. Not where I am. And if you have too much of another cation, you want some nutrient runoff, at least until the soil is balanced. In commercial ag tilling, year after year does allow the rain to wash everything away, and the sun and wind then destroy all your OM. But like Hazy said, that doesn't really apply here. I was being sarcastic about Brazil, obviously chopping down the rainforest isn't a good model.

I disagree with organic vs conventional for arguing quality. Quality comes from high calcium and lots of available trace minerals. How you choose to get there is dependant upon where you are, what you need, whats locally available, and your means of application. It shouldn't be restricted by some bullshit government certification. Most commercial organic produce in the USA actually has a lower mineral content. Keyword there is commercial, not organic. Commercial farms are capitalizing on lowering their inputs and selling their product for more because they can afford organic certification and selling as "organic". But 90% of organic tomatos at the supermarket are still pale and taste like celery. Those commercial organic farms could careless about quality or nutrient density. They'll sell you a supplement for that. They are making money and selling at a higher price with less fertilizer input. The whole organic paradigm is flawed.

 

[paradoxlost]

It all depends on where you are. If you are in a rainy coastal region, erosion is an issue. Not where I am. And if you have too much of another cation, you want some nutrient runoff, at least until the soil is balanced. In commercial ag tilling, year after year does allow the rain to wash everything away, and the sun and wind then destroy all your OM. But like Hazy said, that doesn't really apply here. I was being sarcastic about Brazil, obviously chopping down the rainforest isn't a good model.

I disagree with organic vs conventional for arguing quality. Quality comes from high calcium and lots of available trace minerals. How you choose to get there is dependant upon where you are, what you need, whats locally available, and your means of application. It shouldn't be restricted by some bullshit government certification. Most commercial organic produce in the USA actually has a lower mineral content. Keyword there is commercial, not organic. Commercial farms are capitalizing on lowering their inputs and selling their product for more because they can afford organic certification and selling as "organic". But 90% of organic tomatos at the supermarket are still pale and taste like celery. Those commercial organic farms could careless about quality or nutrient density. They'll sell you a supplement for that. They are making money and selling at a higher price with less fertilizer input. The whole organic paradigm is flawed.

I will give you that. being organic doesnt matter in regards to can you get a certificate. its all about where you get your nutrition from and trying to mimic nature. the most productive places in this world arent farms they are forests. so we should look to mimic them. like for calcium simply adding calcium sulphate is not the same as adding gypsum rock. for trace minerals adding a chelated solution is not the same as adding a few different rock types that have moss and lichens growing on them to your soil.

most of these nutrients are part of complexes we do not fully understand yet.

 

[paradoxlost]

also as far as taste and nutrition go for food, the best individuals are wild not growing in a monoculture. organics can be fucked but if it comes from a place of nature rather than guidelines it will work.

 

[Space Case]

Forests are the most complete cycles for nitrogen and carbon, but not necessarily for our own production. If you read Tiejens, he clearly states that Calcium Carbonate mineral soils are the most productive and yield the best quality all over the world. Forests like the redwoods or the boreal forest are highly specific and adaptive ecosystems that are closed systems and recycle nitrogen and carbon extremely efficiently. Those forest floors may be teaming with life, but not very productive for our own production. Those soils tend to be acidic and lack cations, as most of the minerals in such a system are in flux. So should we cut down those forests and grow food on em? I disagree. Leave those closed ecosystems as oxygen farms for the planet. No use in mimicking them, because modern farming, no till, organic, whatever, depends on a HARVEST, where you remove part of the plant and take it somewhere else. So that is no longer a closed system in itself. If you lived on your farm and only ate the food it produced and then used your own human manure to fertilize, that would be a closed system. But you'd also have to bury your body there too. Thats the only way you are mimicking a closed forest system on any kind of a farm.

 

[maxmurder]

Max, if you can send an extra sample in for science, find some clay under something like a piece of inert material like a cement block where you can see worms going in and out of. Almost like clay worm castings. Send that in too. I sent it in and saw significant and interesting differences. Ill post results soon. I'm going to try planting in it.

no problemo

 

[paradoxlost]

Forests are the most complete cycles for nitrogen and carbon, but not necessarily for our own production. If you read Tiejens, he clearly states that Calcium Carbonate mineral soils are the most productive and yield the best quality all over the world. Forests like the redwoods or the boreal forest are highly specific and adaptive ecosystems that are closed systems and recycle nitrogen and carbon extremely efficiently. Those forest floors may be teaming with life, but not very productive for our own production. Those soils tend to be acidic and lack cations, as most of the minerals in such a system are in flux. So should we cut down those forests and grow food on em? I disagree. Leave those closed ecosystems as oxygen farms for the planet. No use in mimicking them, because modern farming, no till, organic, whatever, depends on a HARVEST, where you remove part of the plant and take it somewhere else. So that is no longer a closed system in itself. If you lived on your farm and only ate the food it produced and then used your own human manure to fertilize, that would be a closed system. But you'd also have to bury your body there too. Thats the only way you are mimicking a closed forest system on any kind of a farm.

hence top dressing and slow release sources buried in your grow space. and I mean yea calcium carbonate soils are productive when they have the carbon a d nitrogen that forests do.

 

[caterpillar710]

If compaction from clay is a problem plant a crop like radishes or potatoes or something with bulbous roots that can break clay layers first. This should break up a root restricting layer.

Than I would add Ca sulfate carbonate and phosphate from organic sources as a top dress the next season and water it in.

What if the clay compaction is so hard the daikon grow square and up out of the soil? Have u ever tried to do what you're suggesting. Doesn't look like it

 

[Space Case]

The mighty no-till tent grower consultant with all the answers! The diakon might help, but if you are planting a tillage crop, why wouldn't also just mechanically till? At least your first year. Hell, slownickel was the first to recommend japanese radishes, but is also a proponent of subsoiling and tearing that sticky clay shit up! And he is an actual organic food farmer.

 

[caterpillar710]

Don't u know that 100sq ft and 10,000 square meters are the same

 

[jidoka]

Lol...we got that same argument used against us cat.

 

[paradoxlost]

What if the clay compaction is so hard the daikon grow square and up out of the soil? Have u ever tried to do what you're suggesting. Doesn't look like it

Well, this should work for compaction. If you have a cemented layer, well shit dude step one is selecting your location. You wouldn't try to build a road on a vertisol, why would you try to farm on a cemented layer lol.

 

[caterpillar710]

I think you've spent too much time growing in a tent and not enough time on the field

 

[reppin2c]

Heres some chicken layer feed that some how ended up in a bag of castings. They grind up a bunch of shit and pelletize it. Wonder how the fungi could have been so minute with all that grinding.



There was a guy here that was preaching some sort of no till or whatever last year. I found his thread his shit was pretty weak and he had a few(less the 20) plants in what looked like the size of my ID.

So I guess its whatever scale you wanna tackle for your self. Ill bring out the heavy equipment get the shit done and go to the lake. how bow dah perlite order though?....I could try to no till some of that action

 

[caterpillar710]

Cash me outside on dat perlite dat order be chunky fam.

 

[paradoxlost]

I think you've spent too much time growing in a tent and not enough time on the field

this is true I havent grown for yield in a field yet but ive gardened ornamentals a fair bit in out door beds and basically I just topdress with compost and mulch every season and it works great. granted I make the compost and know what is in it.

(Till + amendments) x compost tea = live soil. IMO.

partially true. a biological community that has had decades to mature is quite different in species composition and gradient with depth. this is why it is impossible to engineer a histosol.

I guess if it is absolutely necessary when you are starting to till in ammendments at the beginning of the life of your grow, but after that leave it alone. beyond seed drilling and top dressing. ions are mobile in soil top dressing will contribute to nutrition at depth. micronutrients shouldnt be a problem if youre not lazy. also if you are going to disturb the soil anyways bury some different types of rocks that contain a beneficial geology. the ridiculous amount of fungi will make small amounts of micros available. all you need.

also a large part of why no till is a valid and necessary aspect of farming is the way it affects the health of the land at a regional scale. your waterways will be healthier, etc. for farming to continue thinking on regional scales instead of property scales is necessary.

 

[caterpillar710]

You sound like you are trying to apply rangeland management to field agriculture

 

[oct]

I am going in-ground this year and I am tilling the absolute fuck out of my field. Any place irrigation can even remotely saturate is getting tore up. The outlying area around my holes will have stutzmans and gympsum tilled by the end of the month and a cover crop sown.

I have about 140 yards of soil and my native is a half clay half granite with a thin layer of dead organic matter. Should be fun.

 

[reppin2c]

Sometimes you just gotta let someone walk the same path they always walk.

We should get back to the numbers and skip the side show. I'm also done with the 16 posts guy