Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[jidoka]

zn = 1/10 p is what i shoot for. do i hit it every time...fuck no...but i shoot for it

edit...and yea i chase it with oliars through veg and then focus on mn in flower

first you build the solar panels, then you make them reproductive

 

[orechron]

The thing is everyone is in such high P mixes so 1:10 means a shit ton of Zn. I've crept up to 45ppm Zn with 500ppm on my last analysis from spectrum. Still looks like I could use more.

 

[slownickel]

I try and do small correctives with zinc, manganese and copper. But then I also apply them twice a week as well in the correct proportions. This is key to their management.

They all need to be present from early on til you harvest, it is not about one at one moment in time and another at another time.... maintaining constant applications works great on the soil. You don't need much....

 

[jidoka]

except me...i dont believe in high P. 1/10 th is doable in my soil

 

[orechron]

We were going back and forth on the high P issue for a while. Used to be worried that we were fucking with mycorrhizal fungi with our P levels, but its not clear that 1.) mycorrhizal infection was occurring, 2.) a mycorrhizal association was enough to supply adequate amounts of P to such a fast growing plant.

Still unsure about those things and also whether a majority of the P in the mix is locking onto calcium in the long run. Which is maybe why I still see a P deficiency in 500ppm.

I've seen good responses to small gypsum applications with Zn, Mn, and CuSO4 mixed in. Slow are you talking about your limes and avocados?

 

[slownickel]

We were going back and forth on the high P issue for a while. Used to be worried that we were fucking with mycorrhizal fungi with our P levels, but its not clear that 1.) mycorrhizal infection was occurring, 2.) a mycorrhizal association was enough to supply adequate amounts of P to such a fast growing plant.

Still unsure about those things and also whether a majority of the P in the mix is locking onto calcium in the long run. Which is maybe why I still see a P deficiency in 500ppm.

I've seen good responses to small gypsum applications with Zn, Mn, and CuSO4 mixed in. Slow are you talking about your limes and avocados?

Had Hazy doing the same thing. He loved it.

Yes, I do the same on my limes and avocados too!

 

[jidoka]

We were going back and forth on the high P issue for a while. Used to be worried that we were fucking with mycorrhizal fungi with our P levels, but its not clear that 1.) mycorrhizal infection was occurring, 2.) a mycorrhizal association was enough to supply adequate amounts of P to such a fast growing plant.

Still unsure about those things and also whether a majority of the P in the mix is locking onto calcium in the long run. Which is maybe why I still see a P deficiency in 500ppm.

I've seen good responses to small gypsum applications with Zn, Mn, and CuSO4 mixed in. Slow are you talking about your limes and avocados?

i absolutely cannot say either. gotta solve this mystery one way or the other. it may come down to microbes

 

[jidoka]

i have seen exactly one grower get dreadlock roots on cannabis. he is the exception...i never have

 

[HappyTreeFarm]

Plus even if I gotta fuck with it in Denver I hate coco. Getting it alive is a bitch. I got a sample heading for microbe testing now if they listened (always a question). Plus because it is acidic peat gives you more room to make amendments...Ca.



so from what you wrote my understanding is to get the biology going is difficult in coco and you don't like the Ph of it.
is that correct?

 

[HappyTreeFarm]

i agree with what jidoka said about Co. it is essential for nitrogen fixing microbes, also is a enzyme co-factor for a few fundamental enzymes. not quite sure how it interacts with other metals?

according to kempfs' observations through sap analysis, they have seen no crop response in the sap from metals amended in the soil except Zn which has only one oxidation state. in the soil these metals are in different oxidized states, the plants can only absorb these metals in its "reduced form". which he says takes a very very long time for this process to happen unless you have extremely high functional biology. hence the comment about using foliar or chelated liquid drench for maximized crop response.

I'm just reporting what I'm learning I'm not an expert yet. thought you guys would be interested to hear new observations on the subject


speaking of P what is a good level for the soil? is it a dynamic thing during different stages of growth, are higher levels of P needing to be supplied? or is it amended to a certain level to know your good for the season?

 

[BrainSellz]

https://www.zera.com/

Wow, 24 hours and you have compost. Impressive!

 

[slownickel]

Kempf is a woowoo juice salesman. Apparently he screwed everyone that got involved with him.

Kempf barely finished high school and is one of those "self appointed agronomists". I don't put much credence in his observations.

Manganese, zinc and copper are quantitative issues. Don't put on enough and you won't see a result.

My local agronomist (real one) that works for me ran some experiments at the farm. He applied 50, 70 and 90 grams of manganese sulfate per lime tree. After 4 months he declared there was no result.

When I calculated the requirements, my numbers came out at nearly 250 grams per tree. We tested then 150, 250 and 350 grams per tree.

At 150 grams, there was a slight response, at 250 grams excellent response, at 350 grams the trees looked amazing.

So if Kempf didn't get the dosis correct, he surely won't see it in his sap analysis. If he is not applying the metal constantly after the corrective dosage, he will surely not see it in his sap analysis.

Manganese, zinc and iron are not mobile in the plant. You can get a great response from a one time application if you hit the number, but 45 days later, you may be dramatically short on Manganese.

Why? Because many soils are made of iron. If one is not using the correct soil analysis procedure and making good calculations AND keeping up with constant dosages, then they don't know what they are doing.

He is selling woowoo juice folks.

 

[HillMizer]

I have gotten a reaction from trying to mix micro sulfates together. I weighed out 50 yogurt cups of sulfates together and added water. The idea was to further dilute them in the AM. And water them in, nope. I just got 50 little micro concrete blocks.
Do you apply dry?

I have dreams of applying topdress with concrete pumps or hydroseeding equipment.

Anyone using montmorillonite, bentonite or zeolite? Good additive for indoor peatmix instead of iron-rich Cali-clay?

 

[slownickel]

I have gotten a reaction from trying to mix micro sulfates together. I weighed out 50 yogurt cups of sulfates together and added water. The idea was to further dilute them in the AM. And water them in, nope. I just got 50 little micro concrete blocks.
Do you apply dry?

I have dreams of applying topdress with concrete pumps or hydroseeding equipment.

Anyone using montmorillonite, bentonite or zeolite? Good additive for indoor peatmix instead of iron-rich Cali-clay?

Sounds like you better get the cement pump order in quick!

Micros in quantities are going to be toxic to roots.

I mix with clays in a 5 or 6 to 1 dilution.

Be careful with the zeolite. Full of aluminum!

 

[slownickel]

Excellent article about metals.

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/96/3/425.short

Feel free Daniel to pass it on to Kempf.

 

[jidoka]

i don't get the oxidative state thing. did he say it and scientically explain it or just gloss over the science like normal. it appears to me all he does is chelate those with fulvic or leonardite. but who knows

 

[jidoka]

Plus even if I gotta fuck with it in Denver I hate coco. Getting it alive is a bitch. I got a sample heading for microbe testing now if they listened (always a question). Plus because it is acidic peat gives you more room to make amendments...Ca.



so from what you wrote my understanding is to get the biology going is difficult in coco and you don't like the Ph of it.
is that correct?

yea. the ph is an indication the cec sites are already populated. and the balance is not what you want. high k and low ca. first thing you gotta do is figure out how much gypsum to add to drive off k and build ca. then you get to try to build biology

 

[slownickel]

i don't get the oxidative state thing. did he say it and scientically explain it or just gloss over the science like normal. it appears to me all he does is chelate those with fulvic or leonardite. but who knows

Why don't you take this AEA stuff over to the AEA thread please.

 

[blkantha]

Slow,
There are so many views for applying Copper to soil. Not sure what is the minimum constant ppm to hold in soil.
I apply copper sulphate to soil as amendment, lot of folks say that this kills biology in soil and toxicity last long.
Beddoe in his book mentions to have around 35ppm. Is this not too toxic ?.
How to handle deficiency with out much side effects on microbes in soil.
How does cu translocation happens ?

 

[slownickel]

Slow,
There are so many views for applying Copper to soil. Not sure what is the minimum constant ppm to hold in soil.
I apply copper sulphate to soil as amendment, lot of folks say that this kills biology in soil and toxicity last long.
Beddoe in his book mentions to have around 35ppm. Is this not too toxic ?.
How to handle deficiency with out much side effects on microbes in soil.
How does cu translocation happens ?

No doubt that copper affects microbes. They get over it. The biology team will always dislike copper.

My microbiology is doing fine and I add copper twice per week in small dosages!

Beddoe is a dentist that copied and put Reams ag stuff into one presentation. He is not a farmer nor has he investigated anything in agriculture. 35 ppms of Copper is absurd by the way.

Copper translocation signifies copper mobility within the plant....