Is that an offer?
-
ICMag with help from Landrace Warden and The Vault is running a NEW contest in November! You can check it here. Prizes are seeds & forum premium access. Come join in!
Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation
- Thread starter slownickel
- Start date
- Status
Is that an offer?
U
usually
Depends on mood.
Thank you so much again for the help and effort you've been putting in here slownickel!
I am still not able to send my soil mix in, but just the principles you've been teaching, along with knowlage I got from reading a few of the epic outdoor and organic soil threads have been helping me greatly in my slow transition to no till or minimal mixing organics....
The mix I've been using is approximately 107 l of peat, 150 l of coco and 220l of perlite with 60l of worm castings.
Previously I was told I could bake the contents of one of my 15 gallon pots and weigh the dryed soil and add by weight.... I have found most mixes are too hot when added by gallon because my high perlite content I figure...
If I did do it by weight, what would be my best sources for getting my bases right? I've had good luck top dressing fish and crab meal before flower and bone meal and oyster shell flour when I see bud set.... But every time I try to get my initial mix right I get weak flower set or persistent bug and mould issues... Makes me think I'm over on nitrogen and getting locked out...
I know not really scientific... But any ideas would help... Been at it a while so even a direction would be enough... Thanks again and thank you avenger for the link.. Ran outa rep but I'll get ya back!
I am still not able to send my soil mix in, but just the principles you've been teaching, along with knowlage I got from reading a few of the epic outdoor and organic soil threads have been helping me greatly in my slow transition to no till or minimal mixing organics....
The mix I've been using is approximately 107 l of peat, 150 l of coco and 220l of perlite with 60l of worm castings.
Previously I was told I could bake the contents of one of my 15 gallon pots and weigh the dryed soil and add by weight.... I have found most mixes are too hot when added by gallon because my high perlite content I figure...
If I did do it by weight, what would be my best sources for getting my bases right? I've had good luck top dressing fish and crab meal before flower and bone meal and oyster shell flour when I see bud set.... But every time I try to get my initial mix right I get weak flower set or persistent bug and mould issues... Makes me think I'm over on nitrogen and getting locked out...
I know not really scientific... But any ideas would help... Been at it a while so even a direction would be enough... Thanks again and thank you avenger for the link.. Ran outa rep but I'll get ya back!
What's going on in here?
Ryk,
Realize a couple of things. Depending on where that peat was harvested, it will have distinct capacities to give off its constituent elements that it is part of its' chemical nature while it breaks down. It is organic material. That is one chemical profile. Correct? Canadian peat, Russian Peat, Coots' peat? What ever! All have a distinct chemical profile.
Then you add coco.... I won't tell you about how many mango fruit in a very large mango farm in Brazil were destroyed by adding coco fibers/meal as bedding material on mango trees. It was full of salt and toxic with boron. Never saw such a thing in my life. Another chemical profile. The same Coconut materials are used in Costa Rica and work great as a mulch, why? Different chemical profile, different water and soils. Correct?
Then the big wild card. All of the basic components used to make worm castings come from decomposed manures, composts, organic material etc. fed to worms, all of which combined, leave a very unique chemical profile in a very readily available form. What organic material was fed to the worms that made these casting? If it is was from the coast of Peru, chances are, high Na, no Mn, toxic Fe. If it was from Oregon, low Na, some Mn, toxic Fe and Al. If it was produced in one of the islands of Hawaii with no Fe and all Mn, guess what chemical profile that worm castings have?
Hopefully You understand where I am going with this before I get to the punchline.
So in the meantime, I will tell you about a great Chinese friend of mine here in Peru, his name is Huey. Pronounced Way. I help him on his grape farm, nearly 4 years now. Today I was in his farm several hours with his team.
After about an hour or so, he said to his team, "You all should just tape Michael and replay it over and over, because he just keeps repeating himself, every time he comes here. So I will repeat myself again today.
So what to do in your case? Any doubt? Take samples of your best and your worst medium/soil hybrid and send it to the lab. Specific gravity will vary over time as this hotbed of pure organic material breaks down, result in less and less airspace. It will take some time. If you don't know how to maintain that structure open with calcium, by not applying magnesium, etc. You have a small time bomb on your hands. So you will always have this dynamic of decomposition while at the same time, trying to push fertilization, with little to go on other than it kind of worked last time.
Do an analysis, there are a dozen folks here that get off on looking at analysis. And if I could convince you all to test your best vs worst, we could dial each and ever situation in faster and faster. A database if you will. But that takes discipline. Garbage in, garbage out. Analysis from lousy labs send people to the right, when in actuality the solution is to the left! That is what we have seen so far and shows to a great length the real cause of what everyone is complaining about and having to spray foliars to fix, CALCIUM.
Calcium is the King of the elements. If not at full power, all kinds of problems happen.
Realize this took me nearly 25 years to understand. After you keep running into the same issue, over and over, in more than 20 different Countries, in thousands and thousands of acres, all one common issue. Not enough calcium, not enough air to the roots and not enough drainage. Sound familiar?
Of course it does! And why? You all are farmers! Just like the rest of us and that means you all will have to deal with the same exact same problems that we do.
How does one solve a problem in agriculture? Analyze it. Measure the problem. Gauge the problem. Test your hypothesis. Learn from your mistakes by doing tests.
I only know one way to do it and it isn't simple. To accomplish this task, we have to use up to date science, where many have been able to wade through a lot of bullshit and have realized the correct path, whether one likes it or not.
We have to do better than Albrecht, better than Tiedjens, better the folks that just copied the Masters' works into their handy dandy books and had to guess their way around issues that have long been studied by other real people in this science. It is a science.
Do you go to your gas station to get your teeth fixed?
And realize this is not just about mediums/soils and fertilizers. There is this whole other dynamic called water, quality and quantity. Light, wind, temperatures, day lengths, etc... all of which are much easier to guage. But soils and mediums... not so easy. Even though I am not very vocal about it, I believe greatly in the use of microbiology, however, I believe in providing the environment and nutrition to the biology so that they can work. Humates, calciums, micros, sugars, cover crops, washed manures that release metabolites (like Kempf talks about), worm castings, etc... But without air and the correct nutrient combinations, biology will sour due to the lack of air and not be able to compensate for that lack of balance.
Glad to hear that folks are getting something out of my rants!
Go
juice!http://quantumagriculture.com/blog/replacing-soil-nutrients-failure-observation
Does not sound like Hugh Lovel agrees to me...what am I missing
Does not sound like Hugh Lovel agrees to me...what am I missing
Last edited:
plantingplants
Active member
....
Last edited:
One of the biggest hurdles with any grower (including me for more than 20 years), is the testicular clamping and withdrawal when one starts talking about taking away the application of magnesium in the form of dolomite or magnesium sulfate. The only source that is recommended that will NOT contribute to structural collapse is sulpomag. Don't ask me why. Just try it.
The issue with magnesium is another one of those soil science curve balls. The more excess you have, the more you have deficiency in the leaves. This is due to the fact that the roots are dying from too much Mg and they really don't want to pick up any more. TWANG.... no air TWANG..... water logging... TWANG rots... all the problems in the world. And what do people do when these see those color photos of magnesium deficiency on their plants? It would be funny if it wasn't such a sad kick in the ass.
So that is Mg. Now K.
To ideally grow out a plant, you never want to have a K deficiency, which by the way is not very common until the plant kicks into heavy growth, and even then, one should proceed with caution as ideally one would be increasing and increasing quantities throughout the veg cycle. Here is a major issue that needs to be confronted and is critical to understanding how to push growth/flower/fruit.
The plant can never be without potassium. Ideally, if Calcium was high, one could really push potassium heavy and max out production. But not up front. That would be fatal. At the right moment in time, ideally we would push quantities past daily consumption rates to start raising the level or percentage of what is K in the CEC. This is a lot of potassium. Much more than a seedling would ever tolerate. Pushing hard. Why? The more K you can get in, the more you get out. The constraint to K uptake though, is having enough Ca to handle it. If I start with low Ca and I push K, I could never push it to where I could really max out the production of plant mass. Realize that potassium can be taken up from around the soil by osmosis (concentrations) and that the area right around the root can become void of potassium and this is why the potassium has to nearly be constant, in incremental and exponential quantities. However, when you want to flower, you push K down heavily with Ca, so that all the new roots that need to pop below will get what they need and not be short of Ca at this magic moment in time.
Then we work production. The first couple or more weeks, little or no K, heavy Ca, P, metals, B if needed. Then, we start bringing up K slowly, accelerating up until the end, flushing etc if one is into that....
Now the hard kick between the legs.
If you make a wonder soil, all the woowoo in the world and get a CEC of 30. The stradegies laid out to get to full genetic potential for both quality and yield can't be hit. Why? I can't change the CEC to save my life, it would take huge quantities.
So what does this mean? Do your math based on having Ca being 85% using [email protected] and aiming for 2000 to 2500 ppm of Ca, which is 10 to 12.5 meq of Ca on your soil analysis (1 meq of Ca is 200.4 ppms of Ca). With that much calcium, we have excellent calcium levels with which to work and yet not too much that makes getting K response with manageable amounts of K.
If you have to deal with what you have, 85% Ca regardless and spend the money on KSO4 and KNO3.
Hillside Growin
Member
Glad to hear that folks are getting something out of my rants!
Go
I look forward to your rants is like a daily knowledge bomb. I understand what's going on in my soil on thanks to your posts. This last post helped me since my soils is lacking both K and Mg. You and others seem to explain the common problems and solutions with ease. Keep up the good work there's lots of us lurking in the shadows taking notes.
Hillside,
Hard to contemplate a soil that is not deficient in Ca. Applying Mg to a soil, unless it is really needed it is the beginning of the end....
Hard to contemplate a soil that is not deficient in Ca. Applying Mg to a soil, unless it is really needed it is the beginning of the end....
Last edited:
FoothillFarming
Active member
So what about the use of molasses in organics? More trouble than it's worth? Is there a sugar that is lower in Mg?
Molasses is a pretty amazing microbiology stimulator. So is brown sugar.
My organic certification group is balking about the source of molasses as much of the sugar cane that it comes from is nearly always conventionally grown with chemicals and quite often glyphosate is applied to "mature" the cane or knock the leaves off of it, or to simply stop the flowering process. There are several usages. So if you get molasses from that cane, the microbiology will get knocked down and not increased. The first patent by Monsanto on glyphosate was as an antibiotic.
We are planting a small area of sugar cane so we can just press the cane with a small trapiche and get can juice, which is a zillion times better than molasses.
Note the use by AEA and many others of molasses. It is a cheap sugar source and known to be full of nutrients.
My organic certification group is balking about the source of molasses as much of the sugar cane that it comes from is nearly always conventionally grown with chemicals and quite often glyphosate is applied to "mature" the cane or knock the leaves off of it, or to simply stop the flowering process. There are several usages. So if you get molasses from that cane, the microbiology will get knocked down and not increased. The first patent by Monsanto on glyphosate was as an antibiotic.
We are planting a small area of sugar cane so we can just press the cane with a small trapiche and get can juice, which is a zillion times better than molasses.
Note the use by AEA and many others of molasses. It is a cheap sugar source and known to be full of nutrients.
FoothillFarming
Active member
This is the source I use.....
http://www.grandmasmolasses.com/products/grandmas-original-molasses/
Maybe I should search out an organic source next year......Haven't been using any this year, due to high Mg.
http://www.grandmasmolasses.com/products/grandmas-original-molasses/
Maybe I should search out an organic source next year......Haven't been using any this year, due to high Mg.
Jidoka,
Cations compete, always. Play with a magnet when you forget this.
Manganese can go toxic. If you remedy the Mn deficiency FOLAIRLY and keep applying it, you will start replacing Zn and Fe sites with Mn. An induced toxicity if you will.
Also realize that applying metals foliarly has very limited results on yields. It is more a paint job. If you want to see yield responses, the literature and experiences are clear, the soil is what makes things happen in a big way. Doing both foliar and soil applications constantly in a BALANCED proportion to what you need is the correct way to go.
As for an iron deficiency.... mmmm
Iron deficiencies and iron toxicities are identical to the eye. You would be amazed how many times the two are confused, resulting in iron applications on top of iron toxicity.
There is also the problem of not having enough Mn and Zn resulting in Fe not be taken up in the correct form of iron ie. Fe3 vs Fe2, especially if the proportions are way out of whack in the soil of Fe/Mn. This is most prevalent when people apply huge quantities of organic material or a mineral amendment with huge Fe or Al levels. Without the proportional Mn, you will see Fe toxicity but only due to the lack of proportion with Mn, not the lack of overall Mn. You can have 50 ppm of Mn which normally would be a good level, but with 400 ppm of Fe and 200 ppm of Al, you will see big time Mn problems, most often with Zn, Cu, Ni issues as well and overall lack of Ca due to the quality of the roots. You have a lot of Mn, but because things are so skewed in the proportions, it is the excess that makes you need more of the contrary metals, not the lack of units.
This is where the majority of soil and leaf analysis recommendations go wrong. Folks like to look at ranges and say, hey, I am in the range, I am fine. What is out of range? Mmmm High Fe. Oh well. High Al, oh well, Mn a bit low but in range, oh well... and do nothing. Can't get their on that road.
- Status
