B
Benny106
So you are saying tom hills haze from the recent release are monkey haze f3?
question for sam the skunkman on the original haze
- Thread starter bigherb
- Start date
Astro, I'm willing to believe that you may "know" something or have some insight that has never been shared here before and would add value. At the same time, most of the points you are making have been made hundreds of times before on this thread by others, all of whom believed passionately that they were "right" but managed to express their view without insulting the intelligence and character of all the people who hold a different perspective.
You may not understand this, but there is a different way to express your ideas or beliefs that is just as effective at getting your points across but without trying to personally tear down those with differing opinions in the hopes that your viewpoint will suddenly become more believable than theirs.
If you want people to read your posts and understand what you are trying to say, this may actually be more effective for you.
It will also reduce the chance that people will put you on their "Ignore List" as a troll and never hear what you have to say.
People who join the board and in less than 2 weeks here, manage to insult almost everyone who posts pictures and ideas in the threads they participate in without ever posting a pic of a grow themselves or qualifying why anyone would value their opinion on the topic are generally referred to as trolls and generally don't last very long.
There are so many problems for enthusiasts to be able to properly describe and identify the plants they grow and smoke when they lack the vocabulary to even accurately describe the smells and tastes each of the infinite varieties and phenos of these plants offer.
10 smokers sitting side by side taking hits from the same flower in 10 new identical pipes will describe the smells and tastes 10 different ways if they are not allowed to hear how the others described it first before offering their take.
That doesn't take into account the perception and description of the effects, an extremely complex interaction between plant and each unique body.
In the world of wine, they don't spend time discussing with the differences of intoxicating effects (if there even are any) between each unique vintage. At the same time, not every person who guzzles down a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20 will be able to describe the difference or appreciate the value of a $1000 bottle of vintage cabernet.
In that world they have training and certifications to become a professional certified sommelier, a job that presents a fraction of the challenge we enthusiasts face here every day when trying to share our experiences with each other.
So, even if we were all equal in the ability to taste and perceive the nuances of these flowers (we're not), we are at the infancy of our ability to share our experiences because we don't even have a vocabulary that we can agree on for smell taste and effect.
How do you teach people to recognize the difference between heirloom hybrid inputs that haven't existed pure in the marketplace for 20+ years? How can they recognize and describe something they have never experienced themselves?
Yeah, that's a big problem. One that we work on via internet forums a lot because we don't have time machines and can't safely share flowers with each other around the world yet.
But, there are a LOT of crusty old bastards like me around who smoked the original stuff during it's glory days and were connoisseurs of the plant back then. Even if the strains are not around pure anymore, we can taste the flowers and feel the effects from each of these genetic inputs of the best of today's gear. Some of us try to share our experiences in ways that help others recognize these old inputs themselves, EVEN if they weren't there in '79 to smoke the originals.
Of course it's not quite the same thing, and I'd like a chance to sit and smoke a bunch of different heirlooms with my internet friends and discuss back and forth the tastes and effects we were feeling.
Those experiences enrich the appreciation of everything we smoke afterwards.
Some day . . . some day . . .
So, not only were most smokers today NOT there in the old days to smoke the progenitors of today's lines, but to make things even harder, much of what we have been told we were tasting in contemporary canna culture has been intentionally misrepresented for various reasons.
Let's take "Haze" for example.
At some point between the time that Sam first smoked Haze with the guys that made it, and the time that he sold seeds to breeder/distributors in europe that would manage the job of producing and selling the genetics around the world for decades, Sam had to come up with a story to answer the question "What IS this stuff?"
For whatever reason he decided to say that it was "a hybrid of Colombian, Mexican, Thai and South Indian genetics."
Actually I always knew it was a 3 way Columbian hybrid many others were quoted of saying a version of what you say, but not me unless we are talking about Original Haze Hybrids like I made with Thai, South Indian. But I clearly identified any I made and sold. Even the bros that developed Original Haze used Thai and other seeds I gave them to make Original Haze hybrids But that said all Original Haze was Columbian. -SamS
From that point forward, for ~30 years, "Haze" has been a synonym for 4 way sativa mashup.
All the poor connoisseurs trying to describe what they were tasting and experiencing in (usually) hybrids made with "haze" convinced themselves that they had found a "Thai" dominant plant, or that "this one is very Mexican tasting." "You can really see the Indian in this one" they convinced themselves.
Many people that are clueless think they know what they say is true, that does not make it so....-SamS
The whole time, the "pure" haze line as it was originally shared was 100% Colombian. Sam may have a good explanation for this, I suspect that some of the people receiving his seeds mis-remembered him describing hybrids he made himself with the haze, crosses with Thai, or Mex or Indian. Not the pure haze. Those customers of his told the story wrong ONE TIME and the rest of the world started repeating it. At that point, it was too late.
I've known from the first time I smoked Seedsman oHaze that it was pure Colombian, and have said so here and elsewhere.
Sam finally acknowledged here in this thread that is exactly what it is (in pure form.)
I never said otherwise, can you show me where I did? -SamS
The first time I got high was on Colombo and I smoked pounds of it in the 70s. There was never any question in my mind about what ohaze was, as the taste and effects are obvious to me.
I then became a grower and flowered Colombian, Thai, Mexican, Panama Red, Laos, Jamaican, and more Indicas and indica hybrids than I can count from '81 to '89. First from California, then from around the US as a cornucopia of indicas were everywhere by 85. That whole time reading, studying, savoring every toke, analyzing the plants and my experience with them. There were LOTS of people doing the same thing around the US. Some still around, growing, posting on the web, making seeds, gettin high.
So, informed, educated palates exist in this community, and sometimes post to share their experiences. Not as often as I'd like. Even with my experience, I love hearing from other people who were around back then, their experiences always mesmerize me. Usually they only post when they feel they won't have to deal with a bunch of people who never had "the real thing" telling them what's what.
So . . . pure oHaze is Colombian . . . Check.
That said, pure Haze was a 3 way hybrid of 3 different lines Santa Marta Columbian, Punta Rojas, mauve that hybridized gave progeny that were silver, silver blue, purple, gold, lime green, as well as very different terpene contents. -SamS
Now we have hybrids and heavily worked offshoot lines that are very different from what Sam originally sold, and continued to sell indirectly as he provided bulk seeds from a specific run of his seed stock directly to Seedsman to be resold as "Seedsman oHaze."
Not quite true, I have used the same Original Haze mothers and fathers for 30 years to make the Original Haze seeds. -SamS
Although that bulk "white label" sales model is common in the industry, it was unique in the world of Sam's haze. Most other notable Haze producers produced their own haze lines from seeds or cuttings they bought from Sam (TFD, etc.)
Many others simply renamed seeds made from cuttings or filial generations from Nevil's haze hybrids.
So, "pure" Haze is Colombian, but "pure" Tom Hill Haze could be a heavily worked hybrid. Haze x thai, Haze x Deep Chunk (interesting theory), Haze x whatever, inbred by Tom using his unique methods of selection and generational recombination to finally produce something amazing that deserves it's own name today.
I'm no expert in Tom Hill Haze. haven't grown it or smoked it yet but I am looking forward to it. I've got the seeds.
I respect the people that put in the effort to grow it today and am grateful for those that share their work so that others can experience it and that it doesn't vanish from the world of available genetics.
I don't see how anyone can not feel that way. It's simple.
Who's "right" about the pedigree of genetics today?
We'll never know.
The history of a canna seed is hidden in a cloud, and we can only know what our tastes and minds tell us.
In many cases it can get us very close, and very close will have to be good enough.
The hands of many outlaws touched the flowers and seeds before they ever reached a smoker. Each one trying to conceal where it came from.
The identity of every plant grown from those seeds, loved by the grower enough to name it themselves like they were children. An extension of themselves. Origins further clouded.
The name of the bags changed by every dealer on the street. Simplified, abstracted by people with zero knowledge of the genetics or origins. Labeled to sell.
The need to be "right" is so divisive in our world, and is utterly ridiculous in the context of experiences as subjective as cannabis.
It has taken me years to see that and I find life much happier now realizing that i can't be "right" about someone else's experience. Theirs is theirs. Mine is mine.
We can share our stories, insights, perspectives and all be richer for it.
But fighting with each other, CONVINCED that We are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong and an idiot.
Well . . . that gets us nowhere, and makes the person who brings that noise very unwelcome.
If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?
If a cannabis genetics zealot is right by himself, can he ever happy?
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TheDarkStorm
Well-known member
I dont blame sam sometimes for not saying much...so many ppl think they know what pure haze is
The haze brothers had 17 different sativas and 18 indicas an dozens of hybrids...an a mysterious seed with unknown origins that was passed to them.... the haze brothers created many different haze lines...the different haze lines that wer sold had different colours, different flower times, different looks, an slightly different flavours..even sam describes this...so those who say theyv experienced real pure haze I say this...wich one was it, wat season was it an from which parents ...as the haze brothers released buds of many haze lines but they all seemed to share wat can only be described as the heart of the haze ..
The Haze bros grew late NLD varieites, almost all were pure Columbian I did not really see WLD varieites from them, they did grow Skunk #1 but not really until later. I gave them a few Thai, S Indian and a Mex or two seeds but they both preferred Original Haze. They could also get more for Original Haze because of its uniqueness, I saw both Mexican and Columbian in the 70's 80's a few times seedless, but never as strong or unique as Original Haze. I really liked the best Columbian but it paled next to the best Original Haze, really a different smoke and look and smell.
-SamS
The haze brothers had 17 different sativas and 18 indicas an dozens of hybrids...an a mysterious seed with unknown origins that was passed to them.... the haze brothers created many different haze lines...the different haze lines that wer sold had different colours, different flower times, different looks, an slightly different flavours..even sam describes this...so those who say theyv experienced real pure haze I say this...wich one was it, wat season was it an from which parents ...as the haze brothers released buds of many haze lines but they all seemed to share wat can only be described as the heart of the haze ..
The Haze bros grew late NLD varieites, almost all were pure Columbian I did not really see WLD varieites from them, they did grow Skunk #1 but not really until later. I gave them a few Thai, S Indian and a Mex or two seeds but they both preferred Original Haze. They could also get more for Original Haze because of its uniqueness, I saw both Mexican and Columbian in the 70's 80's a few times seedless, but never as strong or unique as Original Haze. I really liked the best Columbian but it paled next to the best Original Haze, really a different smoke and look and smell.
-SamS
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Who told you all that detail DS?
How do you "know" what you "know"?
the 17 sativas and 18 indica part sounds super sketchy. How they heck do you know, or they counted so well? We were all too stoned to remember specific details like that.
Wow!
Finally had Sam edit a post of mine.
That's a little un-nerving . . . Wish you wouldn't do that Sam :-(
Not sure I want to further chop up my post with bolded and highlighted inline replies although it might be the easiest and cleanest way for others.
I don't disagree with anything sam said in my post, although a think he mis-read some of my points and/or didn't note where I clarified some of the things he questioned below his inserted comments that should be clear we are saying the same thing.
I wasn't there when Sam did whatever he did over the years. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on pretty much everything in my post.
I assume your keeper cuts are preserved in a corporate greenhouse somewhere in Europe and that you no longer maintain them yourself. Is that true?
As far as making oHaze seeds, is it safe to assume that you haven't made a fresh batch of those seeds in many years? When you released the old Skunk line through Chimera a few years ago, you described your seed preservation as barrels full of each line, kept in a special storage facility.
I can't imagine you dusting a 30 year old cutting with a paint brush in your closet in Canada these days
Thanks! -raho
Finally had Sam edit a post of mine.
That's a little un-nerving . . . Wish you wouldn't do that Sam :-(
Not sure I want to further chop up my post with bolded and highlighted inline replies although it might be the easiest and cleanest way for others.
I don't disagree with anything sam said in my post, although a think he mis-read some of my points and/or didn't note where I clarified some of the things he questioned below his inserted comments that should be clear we are saying the same thing.
I wasn't there when Sam did whatever he did over the years. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on pretty much everything in my post.
Since this IS a thread about haze questions for Sam after all . . . we got questions
I assume your keeper cuts are preserved in a corporate greenhouse somewhere in Europe and that you no longer maintain them yourself. Is that true?
As far as making oHaze seeds, is it safe to assume that you haven't made a fresh batch of those seeds in many years? When you released the old Skunk line through Chimera a few years ago, you described your seed preservation as barrels full of each line, kept in a special storage facility.
I can't imagine you dusting a 30 year old cutting with a paint brush in your closet in Canada these days
Thanks! -raho
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TheDarkStorm
Well-known member
Thank you very much for your reply sam....many hav no clue wat your on about ...you got to see an try some of the best ther ever was on the planet ..stay blessed...stay hazed
Wow!
Finally had Sam edit a post of mine.
That's a little un-nerving . . . Wish you wouldn't do that Sam :-(
Not sure I want to further chop up my post with bolded and highlighted inline replies although it might be the easiest and cleanest way for others.
I don't disagree with anything sam said in my post, although a think he mis-read some of my points and/or didn't note where I clarified some of the things he questioned below his inserted comments that should be clear we are saying the same thing.
I wasn't there when Sam did whatever he did over the years. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on pretty much everything in my post.
Since this IS a thread about haze questions for Sam after all . . . we got questions View Image
I assume your keeper cuts are preserved in a corporate greenhouse somewhere in Europe and that you no longer maintain them yourself. Is that true?
As far as making oHaze seeds, is it safe to assume that you haven't made a fresh batch of those seeds in many years? When you released the old Skunk line through Chimera a few years ago, you described your seed preservation as barrels full of each line, kept in a special storage facility.
I can't imagine you dusting a 30 year old cutting with a paint brush in your closet in Canada these days
Thanks! -raho
Was a pleasure to read that post before it was misinterpreted and butchered.
Sam tells you that everything you said was wrong.
You thank him for it and say that OTHER people have no idea.
Get a spell checker you cuck.
SUPER_HAZE
Active member
If SamS is alive, why not reproduce the original haze and sell seeds again?
B
Benny106
Yeah
If SamS is alive, why not reproduce the original haze and sell seeds again?
Here's some of his hybrids:
https://www.seedbay.com/vendor/sam-skunkman/
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@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
What i remember reading was the Haze brothers were growers not breeders they would cross their best sativas each season and they struck gold.The strain was never stable and changed every year.
They sold what they grew what i would like to know is did haze reach Australia even other markets in the 70s i think it did.Why i think this is because during the Nam War one of the largest drug smuggling cartels was formed.It involved US and Australian military personnel and other government agency's all documented in a Royal Commotion that was held in Australia.The Griffith family's were connected to San Francisco family's and would export cannabis grown in Australia to San Francisco and from San Francisco to Australia and i assume other markets.
I personalty believe what was called tripping weed here was haze in the 70s you could buy African Pan red columbine any type of cannabis for $30 an oz. The tripping weed would come in a small coin bag for $30 and it looked like oily leaf.
They sold what they grew what i would like to know is did haze reach Australia even other markets in the 70s i think it did.Why i think this is because during the Nam War one of the largest drug smuggling cartels was formed.It involved US and Australian military personnel and other government agency's all documented in a Royal Commotion that was held in Australia.The Griffith family's were connected to San Francisco family's and would export cannabis grown in Australia to San Francisco and from San Francisco to Australia and i assume other markets.
I personalty believe what was called tripping weed here was haze in the 70s you could buy African Pan red columbine any type of cannabis for $30 an oz. The tripping weed would come in a small coin bag for $30 and it looked like oily leaf.
Nice theory ,
but two guys growing some weed in their backyard ,
doubtful it was enough to export , let alone even feed the local market,
its possible some seed got here i guess ,
but unlikely enough to get around too much ,
theres more chance the tripping weed you speak of came from the imports of thai stick ,
or perhaps hybrids of that and other imported erb ,
there is no doubt the most common import to oz was thai weed ,
tonnes and tonnes of it ,
so more chance that was one of the more commonly grown also ..
it was certainly the first stuff i tried to grow when i was a young fella ...
but two guys growing some weed in their backyard ,
doubtful it was enough to export , let alone even feed the local market,
its possible some seed got here i guess ,
but unlikely enough to get around too much ,
theres more chance the tripping weed you speak of came from the imports of thai stick ,
or perhaps hybrids of that and other imported erb ,
there is no doubt the most common import to oz was thai weed ,
tonnes and tonnes of it ,
so more chance that was one of the more commonly grown also ..
it was certainly the first stuff i tried to grow when i was a young fella ...
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Its not a theory it is documented fact nsw police were called the black nights like i said US Australian military and government agency's from both sides were involved.
The Italian family's of Griffith and San Francisco were connected.
Were i grew up Thai and hash showed up when the other weed ran dry i even saw Acapulco Gold in what they called lids even show up a Lid was an oz in a tin.Jamaican Hawaiian i even scored African black.
https://www.google.com/search?clien...UKEwisrPjHsYbmAhWZbisKHZY_CgsQkeECKAB6BAgPECY
SUPER_HAZE
Active member
Hi.
And who makes all those sam skunkman hybrids?
In life, not everything is money. Now there are more people than ever interested in local varieties and long flowering varieties.
I think it would be time for the original haze to return. Sams could send someone to make the seeds.: tiphat:
And who makes all those sam skunkman hybrids?
In life, not everything is money. Now there are more people than ever interested in local varieties and long flowering varieties.
I think it would be time for the original haze to return. Sams could send someone to make the seeds.: tiphat:
Those are more old stock from Sam's stash that he sent to Chimera to sell on Breeder's retail. Probably gave them to him for free if I had to guess.
You may have noticed Sam and Chim both got out of the seed selling business at about the same time. Laws in Canada about seeds changed when they legalized cannabis and their real businesses would have been put at risk by any association with black market international seed sales.
Chimera's "Breeder's Retail" operation was not his at all.
He had a guy in the UK that wanted to do the business. Chimera made seeds available (probably in Canada) for the guy but kept his hands clean. Nothing he was willing to do would have been against Canadian law.
Sam did something very similar.
Both of them made that effort as a gesture of support to the community.
Now that most of those seeds are gone and the risk to them is very high, people come around and say they should do more.
There is a lesson that most in the cannabis seed community learn if they stick around for a while:
Nothing lasts forever.
If you see it today and you want it, find a way to get it because it might not be around tomorrow.
Prohibition has destroyed many many treasures.
The good news is that legalization is bringing back a lot of old gear from the shadows in the US where individual preservationists have kept it around.
Strains that are not commercially popular though are less likely to emerge back onto the market and thus will stay held in small groups in the shadows.
If you want "the good stuff", Get the best stuff you can find, grow it and show it on the forums and then use your new found credibility and seeds from that gear as trade for the other things you want.
This community has always operated on friends and relationships.
Make friends.
Give seeds.
Get seeds.
It's easy.
How'd you decide on the name there Super Haze?
Got any big sativas in the garden there?
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Nugan Hand Bank
Nugan Hand Bank was an Australian merchant bank that collapsed in 1980 after the suicide of one of its founders, Australian lawyer Francis John Nugan, resulting in a major scandal.[1] News stories suggested that the bank had been involved in illegal activities, including drug smuggling, arranging weapons deals, and providing a front for the United States Central Intelligence Agency. Speculation grew when it became known that the bank had employed a number of retired United States military and intelligence officers, including former CIA director William Colby.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nugan_Hand_Bank
Nugan Hand Bank was an Australian merchant bank that collapsed in 1980 after the suicide of one of its founders, Australian lawyer Francis John Nugan, resulting in a major scandal.[1] News stories suggested that the bank had been involved in illegal activities, including drug smuggling, arranging weapons deals, and providing a front for the United States Central Intelligence Agency. Speculation grew when it became known that the bank had employed a number of retired United States military and intelligence officers, including former CIA director William Colby.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nugan_Hand_Bank
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