question for sam the skunkman on the original haze

[MadMac]

Nevilles Haze 2017

Nevilles Haze 2017

Interesting leet.Was NH so hard to find keepers on the early days?Cause searching in many packs for a keeper is quite the contrary of what Nevil was advocating...A friend from here told me that he grew a pack of mr nice nev haze last year and found 14-16 weekers with couchlock effect ...

same here.... the last 2 pack's i've bought are not the NH as 10 years ago... think it's now F2 but never F1 ... there all to uniform for that...
i've found in 2 packs only one nice male... no nice girls... the one i've flowered from all was great, big bud's but the high was more on indica than sativa side... also my friends where asking what i smoke... because they know i love the electric speedy trippy high of sativa's..

would love to give some old NH beans a try ...
M.

 

[Raho]

You are of course correct, but my point was that according to sources (SamS mostly) the Orginal Haze wasn't as low yielding before, and it was also more potent. So it has deteriorated.

Hi Thule,
Growing long flowering sativas under weak lights and harvesting them early will DEFINITELY result in low yields.
Average grower these days can't dial in their tent enough to keep a 10 week skunk from throwing balls. Why should we expect them to successfully reproduce Santa Marta in their closet for 16 weeks?



I'd say the best explanation for why an oHaze line didn't yield well (who is claiming this?) would be early harvests and the wrong environment, not "inbreeding."


There are very few people breeding sativas these days and not hybrids or pure wide leaf. Of those that do work with those lines, I can't think of any line breeding Posi, Seedsman or even Tom Hill haze. Just a handful of guys doing open pollination F2 repro's to preserve them, and a few more doing hybrids.

Where is all this "inbreeding" I keep reading here? Am I missing out on something?

The only inbreeding I can see with haze is Shanti inbreeding his haze hybrids or others inbreeding them or outcrossing them.



BTW: Before Seedsman stopped selling oHaze, their stock was bred for them by Sam directly. Seedsman confirmed this recently here on IC. That line probably remained exactly the same as long as it was sold there.


Cheers

 

[leet]

Where is all this "inbreeding" I keep reading here? Am I missing out on something?

Clearly, you are. Please tell us how you know which seeds from which years from the original haze Sam used and how many generations is removed from there, and how many males and females he used in every generation. Are you just assuming TFD and Seedsman is an open pollination from all haze seeds Sam collected over the years ?

Also, don't forget Nevil says he used 69' stock while Sam probably never even germinated these old seeds and most of the seeds he used/left are after the 70s.

 

[willydread]

G `day BW

Shanti was stretching the truth then ...
He has a hybrid from Australia he rated as the Oz equiv of Haze .
Was quoted in an interview saying we have also a female Haze at Mr Nice that is used in El Nino .

Came out in the wash when Nevil was at Mr Nice forum . The other Haze Shanti was talkin about is sposed to be Mullumbimby Madness .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

Good morning Elmer, That is one of the few things that made me doubt Shanti, if it were really MM, it would certainly be hybrid, given the structure of the Nina ....(But for me it's not MM)
Sorry for my ot

 

[MadMac]

Clearly, you are. Please tell us how you know which seeds from which years from the original haze Sam used and how many generations is removed from there, and how many males and females he used in every generation. Are you just assuming TFD and Seedsman is an open pollination from all haze seeds Sam collected over the years ?

Also, don't forget Nevil says he used 69' stock while Sam probably never even germinated these old seeds and most of the seeds he used/left are after the 70s.

hmmm bullshit
don't know where you got all this ideas...
this is all fucking speculation... also your haze talk..
someone who has never grow real haze can not talk about.
it really get bored now when pep's repeat always the same bullshit!
most of it is written here in this thread long ago... maybe read before answer this ...
M

 

[Raho]

G `day OJD

This is what I was saying .
Haze hybrids are what made Haze famous world wide. Not O Haze .

I`ve been reading forums 10 years now .
The reports from growers of outstanding O haze I could count on one hand . Nevil`s haze . NL Hz , SSH and Jack Herer innumerous .

Is it that O haze is not available or people prefer the effect of hybrids ?

Chicken or the egg ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

Hi EB,

I don't see those 2 choices as being mutually exclusive.
People usually do not prefer something they have never had.

Many people see the market as a great natural selection system where the best always rises to the top, but that is a huge oversimplification.

The best absolutely does rise to the top, but that is not the same thing as saying that the best is available to everyone or that "everyone" would recognize the best if a pound of it was sitting in front of them.

In fact, economics have a lot to do with the availability of strains that require additional time and special handling to bring to market in top condition.
Sativa strains can easily require 50% more time to complete flowering. Outdoors, that means most people can't do it successfuly without a greenhouse. Under the lights, more flowering time is money and risk that turns people away. Also, sativas need at least 4 weeks of curing (preferably much more) before the effects reach their peak vs almost no cure for used on most commercial wide leaf grows.

Sativa strains also frequently do not have the density of wide leaf strains needed to work well with trimming machines, leading to heavy losses before packaging.

Although optimized growing methods can help with the first one (SOG, flower from clone, use the stretch as part of the veg time needed for a wide leaf so total grow time is similar or the same) curing time is straight overhead and the cost of hand trimming also goes right to the bottom line (what's the point of growing the top shelf exotic flower if you are just going to extract it down to soup and stick it in a plastic vape cart?)

Legal and illegal markets behave differently and the same
Once someone experiences an acceptable high for a certain price point, their buying patterns tend to segregate based on money and they are unwilling to pay more for a product that may be superior.
It's 6 micro-brews vs a case of budweiser.

The best will always cost more and be scarce because that is how the tyranny of markets works.
Our problem for a product that can only be sold locally without risk of arrest (legal states in the US) is that there may not be enough people who demand the best living in any serviceable market.
You would think there are enough sativa smoking aficionados buying from the market in Cali, Colo, Oregon or Washington to each sustain growers who wanted to specialize in that type of strain, but the only ones doing it that I know of are Kiona.

Dispensary owners buy what they sell the most of as shelf space is limited and weed that sits around and gets old loses value.

The markets are in an awkward in-between phase right now where global commerce is not an option yet. Being able to buy weed from Amazon or other online storefronts would solve the problem of critical mass of buyers for the best sativa product, and I believe we will all see that in our lifetimes. The thing we all worry about is what sativa lines will be left to "fly in" by the time that market opens up?

I'm gonna vote for optimism and praise the preservationists and the old heads who have been growing lines for themselves that dispensaries don't want.

The biggest threat to exotic narrow leaf lines isn't the lack of a market, but the efforts of big money industrialists who in their lobbying efforts to control the market through regulation and supply it with products that have the highest profit margin, impose obstacles to global mail-order weed that could last for 50 years or more.

After prohibition ended in the US, the market for legal alcohol was locked down in monopolies by a handful of giant legal producers.
People think that as the sun sets on cannabis prohibition around the world, that it will be replaced with an open marketplace where small boutique producers can flourish.

In the alcohol model, it took around 50 years before "micro brews" were allowed to become a part of the market. That could be really bad news for us, and lead to a persistent black market where people continue to have their lives ruined for permit and tax offenses instead of being ruined for illegal gardening.
Not sure the difference will help ease the mind of those suffering in jail.

 

[Raho]

Clearly, you are. Please tell us how you know which seeds from which years from the original haze Sam used and how many generations is removed from there, and how many males and females he used in every generation. Are you just assuming TFD and Seedsman is an open pollination from all haze seeds Sam collected over the years ?

Also, don't forget Nevil says he used 69' stock while Sam probably never even germinated these old seeds and most of the seeds he used/left are after the 70s.

I think you misunderstand me Leet.

Please tell us how you know which seeds from which years from the original haze Sam used and how many generations is removed from there, and how many males and females he used in every generation. Are you just assuming TFD and Seedsman is an open pollination from all haze seeds Sam collected over the years ?

I don't know any of those things.

My post about seedsman oHaze being the same through the years it was sold is based on a few assumptions, my own experience and reports of others.

• Sam has stated many times that he maintains a library of cuttings that go back many years. We also know that he has LARGE library of seeds that he has produced and stores by the barrel full to preserve. He released a few of those through Chimera's store a few years ago which is useful as an example of what he has done and what he probably has. He retrieved those seeds from cold storage for Chimera as a favor, not a money making venture and access to that cache is inconvenient as it is not in the same country where he lives.
• It is reasonable to assume that the seeds he sold through seedsman were just a specific line/selection of his many attempts to preserve/work haze over the years and that he was not sending them random different batches from different barrels each time they got a re-stock.
• What years, how many males and how many generations were used in producing the contents of the barrel pulled from to supply seedsman have nothing to do with my statement that it was the same over the years. Those things might speak to consistency within a line which I didn't comment on (phenotypical consistency of the seedsman oHaze line) only that it was the same through the years. If it was inconsistent when Sam stored the seeds, it was consistently inconsistent over the years seedsman sold from that batch.
• I have not speculated at all about TFD oHaze releases because I've never grown it and haven't put any effort in to read the back story around it.

You can pick all of this apart if you like because these are just logical assumptions based on things Sam has said many times that give us a good picture of his practices and resources, and the chance of getting him to validate or refute any of it is almost zero, but it makes sense to me ;-)

Also, don't forget Nevil says he used 69' stock while Sam probably never even germinated these old seeds and most of the seeds he used/left are after the 70s.

Nevil said a lot of things about what he bought from Sam, and I believe most of it. You can hear the candor in his statements during that time at MNS. Most of it just has the ring of truth to it.
He got multiple bags of seeds with different dates and names. But, he never told us which bags produced the C male and A male.
For myself, the smoke they produce makes me believe haze C is from pure Colombian haze stock which would be the older gear.
I believe the terps in Haze A reflect an african outcross and is radically different than C. The dark woody incense terps it can produce in offspring and the wicked psychological effects it can deliver would be very unusual in Colombian. The fact that he made of point of mentioning a bag of seeds labelled "Burning Bush" in his old MNS posts leaves a breadcrumb in that direction.
Thats just like, my opinion.

Nev's obsession with finding the best african line he could (finally settling on Kariba Surprise) to cross with his best haze A dom Nev pheno (Nev21) and make his "Grail" hybrid might suggest he believed something similar.

Sam never really tells us details about what specific stock he worked with in Europe.

I guess that it is possible that Sam needed money badly enough that he sold the best, rarest seeds that he had to Nev. That Nev was a strong enough negotiator and businessman that he made Sam an offer he couldn't refuse to sell entire lines of unique seeds he could not replace.
The dutch are legendary for tough negotiating.

Sometimes it can leave a bad taste in your mouth when you realize somebody has gotten the better of you, which seems to have happened on that day Sam and Nev sat down to haggle over the price of old seeds.

Sam will never say, and now Nev can't.

But I have never seen anybody claiming they have an oHaze plant from Sam (male or female) that produces the same terps as Haze A.
All that is a bit off topic but I can never resist a chance to float my theory about Haze A , and it seems we really agree on the legitimacy of Nev's story so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

I hope this helps clarify my statement about seedsman oHaze a bit and if you still have issues with it I am open to have my mind changed.

All the best to you Leet.

 

[MAHA KALA]

Sometimes it can leave a bad taste in your mouth when you realize somebody has gotten the better of you, which seems to have happened on that day Sam and Nev sat down to haggle over the price of old seeds.

I think the opposite, he sold him some cross of OH, why he would sell him something special, when Nevil had no experience with this genetics before.. my speculation is that he sold him OH x golden thai cross.. according to those 16/17 phenos of NH, I think its all thai. no place for african in my theory I think that A5 terps are produced in combiantion with NL5, not by A male.. if Amale would hit some different mother, I would bet terps are different.. but these lines are done.. further you go with inbreeding its worse and more NL as MadMac mentioned. its not because of haze LOL so that´s why Nevil had to cross it with those nld varieties like Oaxaca or MM, to resurrect real haze high, with what I call "tropical quality of the effect"..

 

[MAHA KALA]

hmmm bullshit
don't know where you got all this ideas...
this is all fucking speculation... also your haze talk..
someone who has never grow real haze can not talk about.
it really get bored now when pep's repeat always the same bullshit!
most of it is written here in this thread long ago... maybe read before answer this ...
M

right, really boring. we both know its not inbred or stable.. its easy to find out, just grow it. who says its weak smoke, didnt grow it or had bad luck with phenos, because didnt grow enough individuals.. they will still repeat it though

 

[Sunshineinabag]

God forbid someone respectfully disagree and move on......seems to be a huge issue online wi some folks I've noticed!

 

[Raho]

I think the opposite, he sold him some cross of OH, why he would sell him something special, when Nevil had no experience with this genetics before.. my speculation is that he sold him OH x golden thai cross.. according to those 16/17 phenos of NH, I think its all thai. no place for african in my theory I think that A5 terps are produced in combiantion with NL5, not by A male.. if Amale would hit some different mother, I would bet terps are different.. but these lines are done.. further you go with inbreeding its worse and more NL as MadMac mentioned. its not because of haze LOL so that´s why Nevil had to cross it with those nld varieties like Oaxaca or MM, to resurrect real haze high, with what I call "tropical quality of the effect"..

You could be right. No evidence to prove it either way.

Maybe the best we can do it try to support theories with our experience.


My experience doesn't support it though.

When I grew Thai stick in '81, the terps and effects were nothing at all like haze A lines. Many people talk about Thai dominant lines in different kinds of haze, but I've never seen it. I guess I'll have something more intelligent to say about that if I ever get around to running my THH seeds since everyone says THH is Thai dom.



I base my Haze A terp assumptions on both Nevs haze and AG13, so I believe I can separate out any NL influence you may be focusing on.

That combined with selling and smoking pounds of different Colombians, Mexicans, some Jamaican and some Panama in the late 70s gives me a lot of confidence in my palate.

 

[MAHA KALA]

I base my Haze A terp assumptions on both Nevs haze and AG13, so I believe I can separate out any NL influence you may be focusing on.

yes, its just speculation from my side, but influence and combination is different term. I meant that those terps was born by combination of both, you cant find those specific terps mix in NL or in haze, only in their combination or genetic interaction. so I believe you cant separate.. Im very curious about your experience with THH

 

[leet]

I think you misunderstand me Leet.


I don't know any of those things.

My post about seedsman oHaze being the same through the years it was sold is based on a few assumptions, my own experience and reports of others.

• Sam has stated many times that he maintains a library of cuttings that go back many years. We also know that he has LARGE library of seeds that he has produced and stores by the barrel full to preserve. He released a few of those through Chimera's store a few years ago which is useful as an example of what he has done and what he probably has. He retrieved those seeds from cold storage for Chimera as a favor, not a money making venture and access to that cache is inconvenient as it is not in the same country where he lives.
• It is reasonable to assume that the seeds he sold through seedsman were just a specific line/selection of his many attempts to preserve/work haze over the years and that he was not sending them random different batches from different barrels each time they got a re-stock.
• What years, how many males and how many generations were used in producing the contents of the barrel pulled from to supply seedsman have nothing to do with my statement that it was the same over the years. Those things might speak to consistency within a line which I didn't comment on (phenotypical consistency of the seedsman oHaze line) only that it was the same through the years. If it was inconsistent when Sam stored the seeds, it was consistently inconsistent over the years seedsman sold from that batch.
• I have not speculated at all about TFD oHaze releases because I've never grown it and haven't put any effort in to read the back story around it.

You can pick all of this apart if you like because these are just logical assumptions based on things Sam has said many times that give us a good picture of his practices and resources, and the chance of getting him to validate or refute any of it is almost zero, but it makes sense to me ;-)


Nevil said a lot of things about what he bought from Sam, and I believe most of it. You can hear the candor in his statements during that time at MNS. Most of it just has the ring of truth to it.
He got multiple bags of seeds with different dates and names. But, he never told us which bags produced the C male and A male.
For myself, the smoke they produce makes me believe haze C is from pure Colombian haze stock which would be the older gear.
I believe the terps in Haze A reflect an african outcross and is radically different than C. The dark woody incense terps it can produce in offspring and the wicked psychological effects it can deliver would be very unusual in Colombian. The fact that he made of point of mentioning a bag of seeds labelled "Burning Bush" in his old MNS posts leaves a breadcrumb in that direction.
Thats just like, my opinion.

Nev's obsession with finding the best african line he could (finally settling on Kariba Surprise) to cross with his best haze A dom Nev pheno (Nev21) and make his "Grail" hybrid might suggest he believed something similar.

Sam never really tells us details about what specific stock he worked with in Europe.

I guess that it is possible that Sam needed money badly enough that he sold the best, rarest seeds that he had to Nev. That Nev was a strong enough negotiator and businessman that he made Sam an offer he couldn't refuse to sell entire lines of unique seeds he could not replace.
The dutch are legendary for tough negotiating.

Sometimes it can leave a bad taste in your mouth when you realize somebody has gotten the better of you, which seems to have happened on that day Sam and Nev sat down to haggle over the price of old seeds.

Sam will never say, and now Nev can't.

But I have never seen anybody claiming they have an oHaze plant from Sam (male or female) that produces the same terps as Haze A.
All that is a bit off topic but I can never resist a chance to float my theory about Haze A

, and it seems we really agree on the legitimacy of Nev's story so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

I hope this helps clarify my statement about seedsman oHaze a bit and if you still have issues with it I am open to have my mind changed.

All the best to you Leet.

You answered the question here :


"If it was inconsistent when Sam stored the seeds, it was consistently inconsistent over the years seedsman sold from that batch."


Nevil did say which bags produced the haze A and the haze C, it was the 69 bag. All the seeds he poped from 70 bag was what thought Nevil was an OH cross and not pure since he found faster plants and not so good as the A or the C, thus Nevs assumes, that Sam, probably didn't even try to germinate these old seeds and he never even smoked the old Original Haze before the 70s. Does this relate to burning bush ? Who knows. HazeA does smell like burning bush to me. Maybe it's related to African.



I have collected some interesting posts by TomHill, I have no idea if they are from here or overgrow/cannabisworld ? Most probably all from here though Icmag. They were random notes in a text file and I thought I should share it. Some are bold because I thought these parts were interesting.

"I picked up 4-5 15 packs of "original haze" from positronics in '95, as well as sk1, bred for earliness "hand pollenated by the skunkman"

At any rate I'd like to get down to it Sam. Most of the Dutch hazes used in hybrids seemed to me from earlier f1 Mexican Colombian stock? A bit more sawn teak/leather of a flavor than the majority of Thai dominant citrus Haze I seemed to have aquired? Is this so? At any rate, the haze I have when it is on, can not be compared to by anything I have ever encountered, ever. Thank you sir for your efforts to make this so. I don't know what to tell folk that have not encountered this. It can be truly awsome. "

"Each year I pollinated females with male pollen mixes, then saved the seed from only the excellent females after the smoke was tested. In 2003, I gathered seed from all of the best plants from generations 1-6, grew them, and let them pollinate each other. Follow? But it gets more complicated, because each year I typically will sprout several generations of seed, not only seed from the latest generation. So that a high percentage of the later generations are products of matings to earlier generations. IE, there is a span of generations included, as apposed to an exact number of generations removed from the original source".

"If I was crunching numbers in the closet I would not cull a lamb. However, if I was dealing with numbers... I know Haze. It is resinous on the stem in veg to the tune of 75%, it smells like a metal shop for lack of a better definition to be sure, no other word for it."

"Haze plants are well culled to ommit the resinless vegging phenos, they are not many, maybe 25%. But do well to get rid of them, all that don't smell like a high school metal shop in early veg are not whorth growing out ime.- T"

"The 2003 seed lot was around (notes are not currently handy) 2-7 generations removed from Positronic stock. Let me try to explain a little better. Each year I pollinated females with male pollen mixes, then saved the seed from only the excellent females after the smoke was tested. In 2003, I gathered seed from all of the best plants from generations 1-6, grew them, and let them pollinate each other. Follow?
But it gets more complicated, because each year I typically will sprout several generations of seed, not only seed from the latest generation. So that a high percentage of the later generations are products of matings to earlier generations. IE, there is a span of generations included, as apposed to an exact number of generations removed from the original source. -Tom"

"I suppose I was guilty of looking on the bright side there somewhat, for yes, there's definitely some Hay in there too. All cannabis that does not have strong terpenes fall under the Hay category in my opinion - when there is nothing left but chlorophyll to smell. Yes, there are phenotypes in this line where all of the herbal, citrus, and metallic/oil properties are so faint that I do classify them as hay. These are most often phenotypes lacking resin. Many of these plants are chock-full of complex smells and flavors, but yes, there's some Hay in there too for sure. -Tom "

"In this particular Haze line, at 4-6 weeks old, resin will start to develop 3/4 up on the main stalk in 75% +/- of the plants regardless of photoperiod. The most resinous buds will develop from within this group in my experience - there seems to be some correlation there. If I was pressed for space, I would cull the 25% of plants that weren't producing resin on the main stalks by 6 weeks old. -Tom"

Another post on what side of haze is responsible for the good effects:
"That being said, I have always felt that it was more like the Thai I have smoked more than anything else. It is clear and electric and very strong, penetrating - rocks me to the core".

more info on TomHill haze:
"It is very complex but I'll give it my best shot. Three complex components. A Thai-like lime citrus, an herb collection (rosemary, thyme etc), and a high school metal shop (metallic/oily). These 3 components are represented to varying degrees depending on phenotype - some are more herbal, some more citrus, some more metallic etc". -Tom
"Yeah, there are some sweeter/pineapple like aromas in there too."

"If I was doing breeding work or really seeking a nice Haze clone I'd want to look at at least 20 females.

The high is not consistent, this has always been my experience with this Haze. Regarding effect, most I'd rank as an up, cerebral, sociable, medium/high potency to varying degrees. Some though are incredibly friggen potent - a sometimes concerning intense high that lasts for 4+ hours. Of course these later types are the ones we enjoy most, or I do anyway. My experience has been that approximately 5% are absolutely outstanding, representing well this reputation/legend of the Haze high. There is some full-on hay in there too, I don't know, I guess I'd say that 10-20% piss me off as a waste of time? The vast majority of the line though falls somewhere between these two extremes. -Tom"

"I do recommend the line as excellent breeding material."

"I'll go ahead and upgrade my assessment to agree with CBF's ^^ and say that there's a "good" plant in every 10 pack on average. But I have grown over a thousand of these Haze plants and once you find an "excellent" example then the bar is all shot to hell and then some forevermore - this is the place from where I am looking at it. Those are about one in twenty, this has been my experience with it. I do not know what your definition of average is, but if you're looking for the majority of what you grow from seed to be anything in particular, I would advise you to grow true F1 hybrids - none of which I offer currently."

"About 75% of them will have resinous stalks approx 3/4's of the way up+ on a sexed plant. It looks though that Miaumiau has removed many of the meristems for clones. The resinous stalks will reveal themselves then when these clones get to about 10-12 inches I reckon."

"I am familiar with most all current Original Haze offerings. To be fair though, some I have not looked at very extensively. However, none have been able to move me near as much as this old Sam line via Posi. My selections have focused on high-quality resin production, and imo this line is the Haze resin-queen.
Occasionally the typical armchair Haze expert will come along and inform me that my line is a Haze hybrid due to the occasional broader leaf - exactly like the drawings of the Thai seedling in the opening pages of Clarkes MJ Botany. It all falls on deaf ears though.
When I am requesting a clean-up on isle 9 due to my mind being split open, or am afraid to drive my car high on a decent sample (4 hours after smoking it) - all perspective is put in its proper place.
I'm almost afraid to release it, tehee, some of you will get so noided-out that you will shitcan your current IC accounts only to return a few weeks later under new handles after the Haze clears.
My friend CBF has been growing my Haze stock for years, and I don't think he'll part ways with it anytime soon.
This plant is my holy grail, by far, nothing can touch it."

 

[mexcurandero420]

Burning Bush seems to be Vietnam x Haze, but could be wrong.
Incense is to be found in Colombian genetics, but would not be surprised if it is to be found also in South-East Asian genetics as well.

 

[MadMac]

Tom Hill Haze

Tom Hill Haze

hello,
because it's a haze thread ;-)
here some haze flower shot's ...

Tom Hill Haze

M.

 

[harvestreaper]

you sure know how to keep them long flowering girls happy madmac

 

[Thcvhunter]

If the Haze Bros story is real, then they did an excellent job.
They seem to have retained much of the wild nature of the Colombian lines, allowing growers to pick which genotypes they wish to work with.

In fact, this is a great lesson to the new generation of breeders: true-breeding is not always a good thing as it comes at the price of a whole lof of good genotypes no longer able to be found within the line.
You can always line-breed down the road and as a seperate project, but be sure to do seed increases that keep the line pure, only culling gently.

 

[MAHA KALA]

"Occasionally the typical armchair Haze expert will come along and inform.." Tom Hill, it looks like Tom Hill talked with that guy before

 

[MadMac]

I think the opposite, he sold him some cross of OH, why he would sell him something special, when Nevil had no experience with this genetics before.. my speculation is that he sold him OH x golden thai cross.. according to those 16/17 phenos of NH, I think its all thai. no place for african in my theory I think that A5 terps are produced in combiantion with NL5, not by A male.. if Amale would hit some different mother, I would bet terps are different.. but these lines are done.. further you go with inbreeding its worse and more NL as MadMac mentioned. its not because of haze LOL so that´s why Nevil had to cross it with those nld varieties like Oaxaca or MM, to resurrect real haze high, with what I call "tropical quality of the effect"..

this is very close to the truth...
good observation !
i'm sure he never germinated successful haze seeds from 69' in the 80' when he was in Holland... the timespan and storage solution @ that time makes it impossible... well could not find the post but Sam talked here in this thread about what he gave to Neville back than... and in this case i believe more Sam.. but the truth will never see the light...
M.

 

[MadMac]

Sam's O-Haze

Sam's O-Haze

hello haze lovers,
well here for comparison some of the 24 O-Haze plants that are coming
will see what this batch can tell me... they are the last gem's from Seedsman and private source... + TFD O-Haze to compare!
have some trouble with TFD because this sell bullshit...
the last 2 packs of o-haze i bought in Amsterdam @ TFD Headquater where all fucking hybrids... now i did a web order with number and will document it again for all other...
nothing is more than disappointing if you buy seeds from source for good money and it's something different... all the time and energy are wasted... nothing is more worse than wasting resources ....

Sam's O-haze

M.