Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[Dank Whisperer]

Philips tech just said 100pF (pico farads) was the number he saw. I asked him whether it was 100 or 1000, and he repeated 100. He didn't have enough info available and said my question would require being "escalated". He gave me an email address for asking these type of questions not explained in the literature.

I'm hoping the 100pF isn't the case, but I'll post what they say in their email.

 

[Avenger]

typical cable capacitance is 100 pf per 3 feet.

so to stay under their 1000 picofarad limit, roughly 30 feet is the maximum ballast to lamp distance.

here is a link to a wire capacitance calculator:
https://www.ampbooks.com/mobile/amplifier-calculators/wire-capacitance/

 

[Dank Whisperer]

typical cable capacitance is 100 pf per 3 feet.
so to stay under their 1000 picofarad limit, roughly 30 feet is the maximum ballast to lamp distance.

Thanks a lot, Avenger. I've never looked into capacitance the way I have ampacity and other factors. That info should be really helpful in the future.

I'm hoping people were having firing issues using bigger conductors, and not that there has been a redesign that would preclude my using an unmolested 15 foot cord. The Philips tech mentioned something of having to use a special low-capacitance wire when spanning distances, does anyone know what type/designation of wire that would be? I assume it's not what most ballast->lamp cords use.

 

[Avenger]

On the off chance that they tell you that the specs changed after a certain date, you can check the date code on your ballast.

On the end with the input and out put wires(left end when reading the sticker) there is a couple rows of numbers and letter stamped into the ballast case. The first two numbers are the year of production, the next three numbers are the day of the year.

 

[rives]

But the OEM guide from 2010, that is no longer available on the Philips web site says 1000 picofarad with no length descriptor specification. Now the current OEM guide available from the philips website, that I linked to in my last post, says 3 meters and still says 1000 picofarad, but as far as I can tell it was published n 2009. Page 5 of this OEM design Guide version from 2008 says 30' but still says 1 nanofarad(1000picofarad).

The Design Guide that says "Updated June 2010" has both the capacitance (1000 pf) and wire length (10m) figures in the table that I mentioned in my earlier post.

It is unbelievable how many iterations of the documentation were done for these ballasts and lamps, some being published just days apart.

 

[Dank Whisperer]

...a couple rows of numbers and letter stamped into the ballast case. The first two numbers are the year of production, the next three numbers are the day of the year.

Wow, my first five #'s are 16015. Hot off of the presses.

 

[Hammerhead]

rives has been running his 315 longer then most of us. If he says no issues with 15' that's All I need. Plus everything Avenger has posted is spot on..

 

[iuredbud]

that may be the case, MJ. but the early version of the OEM guide said 6 ' just like the early label stickers. But the OEM guide from 2010, that is no longer available on the Philips web site says 1000 picofarad with no length descriptor specification. Now the current OEM guide available from the philips website, that I linked to in my last post, says 3 meters and still says 1000 picofarad, but as far as I can tell it was published n 2009. Page 5 of this OEM design Guide version from 2008 says 30' but still says 1 nanofarad(1000picofarad).

The 1000 picofarad spec is more accurate because the length limit specs do not state the wire size. The larger the wire size(conductor diameter) the higher the wires capacitance for the same wire length.

anyway

cheers and good growing

Philips changed the max distance from 30 ft to 6 ft in early 2014 when it came out with the 347-480V version of the ballast. From what I heard the 1 year lamp warranty is voided if mounting is over 6 feet.

 

[Dank Whisperer]

Still waiting for the email from the Philips, but I called them to ask the type of wire they recommended for spanning the 6 feet. Preferably, they said to match what's on the ballast (BUT, I wouldn't do that and I'll explain why later), and if that wasn't available then basically get something with specs that at least match it.

It's [Radix Wire HI-VOLT 3514 AWM 200*C 7.5KVAC] 18ga, 7-strand, tinned copper. I called Radix Wire, and they said that they haven't sold that in a long time. The SALES rep even said, unsolicited, "we've had a lot of problems with that product."

I see a lot of 10kv wire available, but I haven't looked into the characteristics to maintain compliance (generally, regardless of kv rating). Sales rep @ Radix recommended McMaster Carr because they have short lengths available. If anyone knows any good sources of high voltage wire, please let me know.

 

[Avenger]

The ignition voltage pulses are so transient that it is not necessary to spec the wire to 3.5kV.

The industry has gotten by thus far with specifying the wire from ballast to lamp according to the ballasts open circuit voltage. Hence the 600 volt rating of the SO flexible cord used on every reflector sold by the major lighting distributors. This 600 volt rating covers everything up to 1000 watt HPS with open circuit voltages in the 400-500 volt range and ignition voltage of 4-5 kV. For the 315 watt ballasts the open circuit voltage is 240V, so regular ST or SJ flexible cord would work just fine.

an example to quell your apprehension. Take a look at this example of a 5kV pulse rated mogul lamp holder notice the wire leads are 14AWG SEW-2 200C Leads, which have a voltage rating of 600 volts. They are high temperature nickel tinned, silicone and fiberglass insulated because of their proximaty to the lamp, high temperature operating environment.

Also see table 51.1 in this link:
UL62, Standard for Fixture wire and Flexible Cord



Also, It makes little sense to me that Philips would not warranty the lamp simply because the ballast to lamp distance was over 6'. All that will happen is the ballast will attempt to strike the arc for the timed 10 min period and then shut off on fail safe. I don't see how this is detrimental to the lamp as it never even lights. This could be detrimental to the ballast if it was allowed to happen excessively, but the same is true when the lamp has reached its end of life or of you power the ballast with no lamp in the circuit. Thus the 10 minute ignition attempt limit and the failsafe shut off that requires power to be cycled to reset.

 

[Jhhnn]

The ignition voltage pulses are so transient that it is not necessary to spec the wire to 3.5kV.

The industry has gotten by thus far with specifying the wire from ballast to lamp according to the ballasts open circuit voltage. Hence the 600 volt rating of the SO flexible cord used on every reflector sold by the major lighting distributors. This 600 volt rating covers everything up to 1000 watt HPS with open circuit voltages in the 400-500 volt range and ignition voltage of 4-5 kV. For the 315 watt ballasts the open circuit voltage is 240V, so regular ST or SJ flexible cord would work just fine.

an example to quell your apprehension. Take a look at this example of a 5kV pulse rated mogul lamp holder notice the wire leads are 14AWG SEW-2 200C Leads, which have a voltage rating of 600 volts. They are high temperature nickel tinned, silicone and fiberglass insulated because of their proximaty to the lamp, high temperature operating environment.

Also see table 51.1 in this link:
UL62, Standard for Fixture wire and Flexible Cord



Also, It makes little sense to me that Philips would not warranty the lamp simply because the ballast to lamp distance was over 6'. All that will happen is the ballast will attempt to strike the arc for the timed 10 min period and then shut off on fail safe. I don't see how this is detrimental to the lamp as it never even lights. This could be detrimental to the ballast if it was allowed to happen excessively, but the same is true when the lamp has reached its end of life or of you power the ballast with no lamp in the circuit. Thus the 10 minute ignition attempt limit and the failsafe shut off that requires power to be cycled to reset.

Thanks for that. Too much capacitance would flatten the ignition pulse at the lamp. I get the impression that CMH in general isn't hard to fire. 330's & 860's will fire on probe start ignitor-less ballasts even though they don't have the third probe electrode. Hence the "Allstart" designation.

I'd just test the setup to see if it will fire the lamp consistently & run with it if it does.

 

[GET MO]

This was one of the best investments ive made in a long time... plants loving it, growing dumbass fast, internode spacing is way down, and its covering the whole 4x4 tent pretty well.

 

[oti$]

I have one of the sun system lec fixtures that works great for veg...I'm currently light shopping and am undecided on whether to try a gavita flex 750 or buying 2 of the cmh conversion kits from growers house and stacking them vertically. This is for flower. Anyone know what distance the plants should be from the bare bulbs and how deep into the canopy would light reach.

 

[LastHurrah]

^^^that's what i want to know too^^^

 

[Dank Whisperer]

....I'd just test the setup to see if it will fire the lamp consistently & run with it if it does.

Yeah, I might test out the 15 footer. I couldn't stand waiting for Philips and extemporaneously removed the cord and mounted one of my ballasts to the top of a reflector, wiring it directly. I spaced it 3.5" off of the top using machine screws, fender washers, and lock nuts. I thought of just setting a $5 desk fan on top of the reflector to cool it for the time being.

What really got me was: 1) encountering the "6 foot" number for the first time, and on the label no less; 2) having people that know most about it be less than 100% whether the design had changed; 3) one of the Philips techs coming up with a 100pF from somewhere; 4) I'm already fully leveraged to get where I'm at, and risking a bulb failing was not an option. But if the only thing that will happen is it may not fire, then worst case scenario is I have to repeat my direct mount/hard wiring process on my second reflector.

Big thanks to Avenger and everyone else's input on this so far. I'll hopefully have some pics up SOON.

 

[Dank Whisperer]

I don't know if I've seen a link to this anywhere, but here's one from ATL. Might be helpful for those interested in the kit, or anyone using a step up/down.

(((Be advised though, I waited six weeks and heard "they'll ship next week" a few times before getting a refund. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from buying from him, just saying that you'd better plan for a wait if you go that route.))))

ATL video

 

[bandit60001]

Does anyone have experience/ info on ge's Nuvation/ ultra-max 250-400 ballasts? They seem capable of running a range of different cmh lamps from different manufactures. I wonder if these will work with philips elite series? Seems that they may run the 315's but not the 210. Not sure if the lamp wattage is manually adjustable or if the ballast may automaticly sense lamp wattage.
Rives? Anyone?

 

[Jhhnn]

Does anyone have experience/ info on ge's Nuvation/ ultra-max 250-400 ballasts? They seem capable of running a range of different cmh lamps from different manufactures. I wonder if these will work with philips elite series? Seems that they may run the 315's but not the 210. Not sure if the lamp wattage is manually adjustable or if the ballast may automaticly sense lamp wattage.
Rives? Anyone?

Reading the specs here tells me that they're intended for pulse start MH lamps & CMH lamps now available as upgrades to standard MH lamps. The GE 400w cmh lamps offered by HTG & the Philips 330w cmh lamps are in that family but the 315w & 210w Philips lamp are not.

http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/ge_ehid_250-400.htm

 

[rives]

Does anyone have experience/ info on ge's Nuvation/ ultra-max 250-400 ballasts? They seem capable of running a range of different cmh lamps from different manufactures. I wonder if these will work with philips elite series? Seems that they may run the 315's but not the 210. Not sure if the lamp wattage is manually adjustable or if the ballast may automaticly sense lamp wattage.
Rives? Anyone?

If I remember correctly, Azeotrope was using these prior to swapping over to 315's, and he had to change out his ballasts when he made the jump. As Jhhnn says, it looks like they are for the other family of lamps, but the frequency is certainly low enough and at 320w, the wattage would probably work. However, I don't see a lamp voltage specified. ATS deals in both lamp techs, so he should have a definitive answer.

 

[Avenger]

the open circuit voltage on the ultramax and nuvation is 500 Vrms, so definitely not designed for the 315 CDM.