Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[rives]

I have spare sockets and PGZ 18 lamps, so here is a bit more detail....

With the lamp installed in the socket, the overall length from the base of the socket to end of the tit on the top of the lamp is 7-3/4".

And with the lamp installed, from the base of the socket to the centerline of the emitter bulb is 5-1/2". This is what you want to have centered in the hood - it is not centered in the lamp envelope.

If I recall correctly, the mounting bolt centers on the socket for the PGZ are slightly different than on mogul sockets (narrower), but the mounting bracket can usually have the holes slotted with a small file.

 

[Jhhnn]

I have spare sockets and PGZ 18 lamps, so here is a bit more detail....

With the lamp installed in the socket, the overall length from the base of the socket to end of the tit on the top of the lamp is 7-3/4".

And with the lamp installed, from the base of the socket to the centerline of the emitter bulb is 5-1/2". This is what you want to have centered in the hood - it is not centered in the lamp envelope.

If I recall correctly, the mounting bolt centers on the socket for the PGZ are slightly different than on mogul sockets (narrower), but the mounting bracket can usually have the holes slotted with a small file.

Good info. I should have bought a spare socket. A general rule of thumb is that whenever you don't have spares, that's what breaks, right?

The mounting holes are slightly different from mogul to PGZ, as you said. Nothing a little work with a small rat tail file won't handle.

I have to say that I'm really pleased at how my grow has evolved with new systems- Ace's soil mix, blumats & 315's are a terrific combo in my space. At 6 weeks, these girls are exploding in flower-

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=52773&pictureid=1515228

In my album, you can see what's happened over the last 2 weeks. It's taken nearly 3 years, but I finally feel like I'm starting to do it well.

 

[rives]

Good info. I should have bought a spare socket. A general rule of thumb is that whenever you don't have spares, that's what breaks, right?

The mounting holes are slightly different from mogul to PGZ, as you said. Nothing a little work with a small rat tail file won't handle.

I have to say that I'm really pleased at how my grow has evolved with new systems- Ace's soil mix, blumats & 315's are a terrific combo in my space. At 6 weeks, these girls are exploding in flower-

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=52773&pictureid=1515228

In my album, you can see what's happened over the last 2 weeks. It's taken nearly 3 years, but I finally feel like I'm starting to do it well.

Damn, those look beautiful, Jhhnn. It looks like you've got it!

 

[Jhhnn]

Damn, those look beautiful, Jhhnn. It looks like you've got it!

Thanks for that. You're def one of the people who helped me get where I am & I appreciate it.

 

[Unclecrash]

Thank's guys. Im really likin the gavita reflector and it's small ... I think a bit small for the mogul I put in it so im thinking the next one I build will be with the pgz bulb and then compare the two. I might look for a bit bigger hood for the mogul's. I tell you it's damn brite though in the gavita reflector.

 

[Unclecrash]

Thanks for that. You're def one of the people who helped me get where I am & I appreciate it.

checkin your gallery out killin it in there with them 315's

 

[frostqueen]

Hey, guys. Fantastic information here, huge thanks!

I'm not very skilled at building systems like you guys are. So after reading for many days straight now, I’m really curious what the overall performance difference would be between the Cycloptics reflector and the Hydrofarm Phantom reflector.

The Cycloptics https://www.cycloptics.com/node/51 is $340! The Phantom http://www.horticulturesource.com/phantom-315w-cmh-reflector-p23460/ can be found for under $110. I realize the Greenbeams is a really nice reflector, but… seriously? $230 better? I'll confess that I'm no lighting expert... what am I missing here?

I am currently thinking about going with Phantom reflectors hung 36’ apart (bulb to bulb distance), possibly using this https://www.cycloptics.com/node/34 ballast so I can use my existing 120v. electrical. Or maybe some other 120v.-friendly ballast?

Cycloptics ballast: $189.00
Phantom reflector: $110.00
Philips 315/942 bulb: $85

Total: ~$385

Do any of you with experience have any opinions on my choices, or how might I improve them? My spaces to be lit vary, using in both veg and flower. I really like the idea of fitting lights into 3x3 foot squares and these seem perfect for me.

Thanks for any input.

 

[beta]

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[beta]

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[Ready4]

Hello, What is the word on Phillips ? Was told yesterday that they are getting out of all of the bulbs for agricultural use - told that they were stopping Gavita double ended bulbs and all the 315/630 type bulbs.

Are there other companies making bulbs for the 315's ?

 

[rives]

Hey, guys. Fantastic information here, huge thanks!

I'm not very skilled at building systems like you guys are. So after reading for many days straight now, I’m really curious what the overall performance difference would be between the Cycloptics reflector and the Hydrofarm Phantom reflector.

The Cycloptics https://www.cycloptics.com/node/51 is $340! The Phantom http://www.horticulturesource.com/phantom-315w-cmh-reflector-p23460/ can be found for under $110. I realize the Greenbeams is a really nice reflector, but… seriously? $230 better? I'll confess that I'm no lighting expert... what am I missing here?

I am currently thinking about going with Phantom reflectors hung 36’ apart (bulb to bulb distance), possibly using this https://www.cycloptics.com/node/34 ballast so I can use my existing 120v. electrical. Or maybe some other 120v.-friendly ballast?

Cycloptics ballast: $189.00
Phantom reflector: $110.00
Philips 315/942 bulb: $85

Total: ~$385

Do any of you with experience have any opinions on my choices, or how might I improve them? My spaces to be lit vary, using in both veg and flower. I really like the idea of fitting lights into 3x3 foot squares and these seem perfect for me.

Thanks for any input.

That is a very interesting looking reflector, and I like the air cooling option although I think that they oversized it by a fair bit for these lamps. I use 4" air cooled hoods, and even with 2 of them in series and a 120 cfm fan, the hoods are barely warm to the touch. They look like they have potential, but without feedback on the evenness of the light distribution, hot spots, etc, they are an unknown at this point.

The Cycloptics unit was designed from a blank sheet of paper and uses a pretty novel approach with the walls functioning as part of the reflector system. They were originally targeted at replacing the lighting in research facility grow chambers, and if you can follow their suggested installation procedures, I think that they are probably the ultimate solution. The entire basis of their design was to optimize the light distribution. I have not used them because my environment requires air cooling, but I have spoken with Flip numerous times, back to before they were even released to the market. They are spendy as hell, but it really doesn't take much of a difference in yield with our plants to quickly pay the difference if you are doing this commercially. I don't sell, and I can easily grow far more than I can use, so it really doesn't make much difference to me.

Why do you say that? It seems to me that it'd be best to be set up to run the standard PGZ18 bulbs, they're probably easier and cheaper to track down in the long run. In my case I need a spacer to get the bulb closer to center so the adapter's added length even works out in my favor.

I'm not sure exactly what Avenger was referring to, but adapters are generally a poor idea overall. Most of them aren't built up to the same standards as the sockets, and adding more connections between the power source and the lamp is always a bad idea. I do understand the appeal of easily centering the lamp with them and not having to change out the mogul socket. You might try the Mitronix version - I used their sockets and was impressed with the product and their service.

Everything about the plug-n-play 120v fixtures is appealing to me *except* for the fact that nobody makes an air-cooled version. Do these run hot enough that I'd need to even worry about that? Could I safely run one or two of these open SunSystems hoods in a tent with simple single-stage cooling pulling hot air out through a carbon filter at the top of the tent? They'd be running in a cool downstairs room that rarely gets any warmer than 74F, even in the summer. I'm used to running dual stage cooling, but I'd also prefer use professionally wired plug-n-play lighting.

Check out the Hydrofarm Phantom linked above in FrostQueen's post. I have a similar installation to yours - my house is rarely above the mid-70's, don't have air conditioning, and need to use ambient air to keep things cool. Running open fixtures would not work for me (as I said above, that's why I have stayed away from the Cycloptics reflectors) - the lamps are very easy to cool, but they ARE HID lamps and run pretty damn hot if they aren't set up to move the heat out. I don't have the headroom to keep from adversely affecting the plants, wouldn't want to move the lamp that far away anyhow, and would need to move a hell of a lot more air than I am currently doing to make it work. 2-stage cooling is unnecessary with enclosed hoods.

 

[frostqueen]

Rives, thank you for the fast response.

I have air-vented 1000k HPS in an 8X11 room at this point, those Magnum XXXXXXLLLLL beasts, and want to upgrade. My ideal would be a fully-lit room with the lights mounted at ceiling height, which is ~7 feet. My canopy height is usually about 4-1/2 to 5 feet. I picture having eight evenly-spaced 315s, 2 rows of 4 fixtures, with ~2 feet of floor space at the front.

I doubt that I will ever use the air-cool option in these Phantoms, but it's nice to know it's there if I need it. My current situation has climate control.

I do exactly what Cycloptics recommends as far as using walls and reflecting light back in. I use 2'x4' foam boards that are 2" thick and hang them along the front edge - the one side where there isn't a reflecting wall - to reflect light back; it works very well.

I realize that Greenbeams would pay for themselves, but I'm thinking I want at least 10 of them. That extra expense for the hoods gives me serious pause, you know? I've heard other people saying that too.

I'm left wondering just how much worse the Phantom reflector could really be? Enough to justify another $230 per fixture? I'm thinking aloud here, I know you don't know. I wish I could find a performance sheet somewhere. Maybe I'll buy a couple for veg and see how they do.

Others have suggested going with a dual bulb setup, a 630 LEC or similar, but it seems to me that evenly-spread single 315s would provide more uniform overall coverage if I am lighting the entire room wall to wall.

There is also the Sun System 315, but if I'm going to spend that much I'd just go with the Greenbeams.

Are those Cycloptics ballasts any good? I can't tell what brand they are.

 

[rives]

You should search out Scrappy-doo's posts - he has been using the Cycloptics now for a while, and seems very pleased with their performance over the 1k HPS fixtures that he was using before. If I remember correctly, he got far better coverage with them than he had originally anticipated. I think that this link should pull up his posts for you, if not, use the "search this thread" function up above, go to advanced search and put his name in the box on the right side.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/search.php?searchid=6958197

I believe that the current ballasts being sold by Cycloptics are the Welthink units. I would prefer the Philips, but the Scrappy and others have been happy with the quality and performance of the Welthink.

For a quantity buy, I would imagine that Flip would be willing to deal. It wouldn't hurt to give him a holler, he is a very nice guy and knowledgeable about his product (but not our application!).

 

[rives]

Hello, What is the word on Phillips ? Was told yesterday that they are getting out of all of the bulbs for agricultural use - told that they were stopping Gavita double ended bulbs and all the 315/630 type bulbs.

Are there other companies making bulbs for the 315's ?

I haven't seen anything to this effect. I know that a while ago they were trying to stop selling the DE's into this market via controlling the distribution, but haven't seen much else on it.

I would be very surprised if they stopped making the 315's - they were designed as, and are primarily used for, architectural applications. I bought my 930's a year or two before Philips made the adaptation for ag applications - the Agro/Green Power version may have the edge over these lamps, but it is a fractional advantage. I've used both, and you would have to do a closely-matched side-by-side to see a distinct difference in performance.

Regarding another manufacturer, there was somebody that was contracting with a Chinese company quite some time back to make a copy of the 315. It went quiet pretty abruptly. I'm sure that at some point, other manufacturers are going to tool up and provide some competition, particularly if Philips decides to back away from the ag market. When they announced their decision on the DE, they were the only manufacturer making it - now there are about 6 of them or so.

 

[Jhhnn]

That is a very interesting looking reflector, and I like the air cooling option although I think that they oversized it by a fair bit for these lamps. I use 4" air cooled hoods, and even with 2 of them in series and a 120 cfm fan, the hoods are barely warm to the touch. They look like they have potential, but without feedback on the evenness of the light distribution, hot spots, etc, they are an unknown at this point.

The Cycloptics unit was designed from a blank sheet of paper and uses a pretty novel approach with the walls functioning as part of the reflector system. They were originally targeted at replacing the lighting in research facility grow chambers, and if you can follow their suggested installation procedures, I think that they are probably the ultimate solution. The entire basis of their design was to optimize the light distribution. I have not used them because my environment requires air cooling, but I have spoken with Flip numerous times, back to before they were even released to the market. They are spendy as hell, but it really doesn't take much of a difference in yield with our plants to quickly pay the difference if you are doing this commercially. I don't sell, and I can easily grow far more than I can use, so it really doesn't make much difference to me.



I'm not sure exactly what Avenger was referring to, but adapters are generally a poor idea overall. Most of them aren't built up to the same standards as the sockets, and adding more connections between the power source and the lamp is always a bad idea. I do understand the appeal of easily centering the lamp with them and not having to change out the mogul socket. You might try the Mitronix version - I used their sockets and was impressed with the product and their service.



Check out the Hydrofarm Phantom linked above in FrostQueen's post. I have a similar installation to yours - my house is rarely above the mid-70's, don't have air conditioning, and need to use ambient air to keep things cool. Running open fixtures would not work for me (as I said above, that's why I have stayed away from the Cycloptics reflectors) - the lamps are very easy to cool, but they ARE HID lamps and run pretty damn hot if they aren't set up to move the heat out. I don't have the headroom to keep from adversely affecting the plants, wouldn't want to move the lamp that far away anyhow, and would need to move a hell of a lot more air than I am currently doing to make it work. 2-stage cooling is unnecessary with enclosed hoods.

I've never used tents but I imagine they lose a lot of heat through the walls into their rooms. I think closet & whole room grows probably need better cooling because of the insulative qualities inherent in stud & sheetrock construction.

I'd discovered that 2 stage cooling was the only thing that worked well for 1000w in my situation through trial & error in a temporary enclosure. It gave me the best balance between temps & noise. The new space was designed around that & worked decently w/ 1000w but heated up my workshop & the house more than I liked. It was also noisier than I wanted if not really bad at all.

Figuring that CDM would probably give me more of what I wanted I just put CDM into my existing two stage system. Works great. They let me turn down fan speeds quite a bit while holding cooler temps in the process. My spouse handles the finances, but I suspect that drawing 460w less power 12-18 hrs a day probably makes a dent in the electrical bill. Overpriced carbon filters should last longer, as well, because there's less air going through them.

I'm starting to believe that 630w of CDM actually grows better than 1000w of conventional HID.

I'm sure you're right that 315's don't require 2 stage cooling in a lot of situations but it'll work well for anybody who wants to put the time, effort & money into creating a deluxe system.

One of the things growers don't seem to understand very well is that nearly all the power drawn from the receptacle turns into heat, one way or another. The amount of energy put into creating plant matter is a very small % of it all. It's also interesting how our senses shape our judgment. HPS feels hot because it has a lot of infrared that plants can't use. CDM seems hot because the light is so brilliant in the range of our vision that it fools the senses. Our experience with other light sources tells us that it's hotter than it really is.

 

[frostqueen]

You should search out Scrappy-doo's posts - he has been using the Cycloptics now for a while, and seems very pleased with their performance over the 1k HPS fixtures that he was using before. If I remember correctly, he got far better coverage with them than he had originally anticipated. I think that this link should pull up his posts for you, if not, use the "search this thread" function up above, go to advanced search and put his name in the box on the right side.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/search.php?searchid=6958197

I believe that the current ballasts being sold by Cycloptics are the Welthink units. I would prefer the Philips, but the Scrappy and others have been happy with the quality and performance of the Welthink.

For a quantity buy, I would imagine that Flip would be willing to deal. It wouldn't hurt to give him a holler, he is a very nice guy and knowledgeable about his product (but not our application!).

Rives: I really appreciate your advice and all that you have contributed here.

After crunching the numbers I came up with this:

It comes to $650 for a complete Greenbeams outfit, shipped and including bulb. The shipping is over $70 a unit! I'm just. not. understanding that, and it is ultimately a deal-breaker for me.

It comes to $400 total for a Phantom 315 reflector, a 110/220v. ballast from Cycloptics, shipping, and a bulb. This is what I am leaning heavily towards now. I will get 3 for my new veg room before any further investment in my flower room.

I think I've seen a SS LEC-315 listed for about $480. No air-cool options there, though. Not sure if/why that reflector would be any better than the Phantom.

Thanks again!

 

[timmur]

Frostqueen,

Two things. One, you might want to check out Growershouse pricing on Greenbeams. I think they offer better pricing.

Two, you might want to check this thread if you haven't already. It speaks to why the Greenbeam reflector might be worth the $.

 

[rives]

Rives: I really appreciate your advice and all that you have contributed here.

After crunching the numbers I came up with this:

It comes to $650 for a complete Greenbeams outfit, shipped and including bulb. The shipping is over $70 a unit! I'm just. not. understanding that, and it is ultimately a deal-breaker for me.

It comes to $400 total for a Phantom 315 reflector, a 110/220v. ballast from Cycloptics, shipping, and a bulb. This is what I am leaning heavily towards now. I will get 3 for my new veg room before any further investment in my flower room.

I think I've seen a SS LEC-315 listed for about $480. No air-cool options there, though. Not sure if/why that reflector would be any better than the Phantom.

Thanks again!

Better check that link that Timmur provided. It looks to me like you would be at about $513/ea, shipped, for a quantity of 3 with their current sale.

I'm sure you're right that 315's don't require 2 stage cooling in a lot of situations but it'll work well for anybody who wants to put the time, effort & money into creating a deluxe system.

I'm all for 2-stage cooling, particularly if you are already set up for it. However, I think that the only time that it justifies the extra expense and complexity is when the lights require higher air flow than the room needs for air exchange. If the lights can be adequately cooled simply by running the carbon filter loop through them without increasing the flow, I'm not seeing a benefit to the second air circuit. My hoods are barely over room temperature set up this way, and I have one tent in a tiny (5'x6') bathroom. With that said, I am setting up a closet with 2-stage cooling, but it's because I am remote mounting the carbon filter inside of a plenum, outside of the room, and there is no good way to get the hood loop into the circuit.

 

[Avenger]

Why do you say that? It seems to me that it'd be best to be set up to run the standard PGZ18 bulbs, they're probably easier and cheaper to track down in the long run. In my case I need a spacer to get the bulb closer to center so the adapter's added length even works out in my favor.

I'm not sure exactly what Avenger was referring to, but adapters are generally a poor idea overall. Most of them aren't built up to the same standards as the sockets, and adding more connections between the power source and the lamp is always a bad idea. I do understand the appeal of easily centering the lamp with them and not having to change out the mogul socket. You might try the Mitronix version - I used their sockets and was impressed with the product and their service.

exactly my thoughts, rives.

the mogul base lamp has a Light center length(LCL) of 175mm or very near 7 inches.

The pgz with out the adapter has an LCL of 3.5 inches, and I am unsure how much the adapter would add to this, but I bet it is approx. 1.5".

The mogul base lamp version of the 315cdm is meant as a retrofit replacement for 400 watt hps lamps, so it is designed to fit into already in use reflectors that were designed around the 400 watt HPS lamp dimensions.

 

[frostqueen]

Frostqueen,

Two things. One, you might want to check out Growershouse pricing on Greenbeams. I think they offer better pricing.

Two, you might want to check this thread if you haven't already. It speaks to why the Greenbeam reflector might be worth the $.

Wow, thank you for this tip! Brings the total Cycloptics price down to $520! That's definitely ballpark. $17 shipping is more real-world, that's for sure.